[Archived] Back Or Sack?

[chaddyrovers]

So supporting your club makes me a venky fan? There are times when I really do despair. It seems as though anyone who wants to be optimistic has to be treated as if they are winding others up. We know the Rao family have destroyed what we had. But there is still a Blackburn Rovers playing in Blue & White at Ewood Park. At the moment I personally feel that Gary is doing a decent job and would like him to continue next season. Clearly wanting the club to do well seems to have made me a venky fan - not quite sure how.

My point LDRover, and admittedly not very well put, is that football is, as you say 11 v 11 and on the day you win some, you lose some and you draw some. My objection to the earlier post of Jal was that a manager losing to Burnley would lose the respect of the Blackburn public. I couldn't see any logic in that remark and still don't.

Do I want a return to the "bad old days". No. However, history does have a habit of repeating itself and one can see a road we have travelled down before looming ahead. I don't claim to be a "bigger" fan - whatever that is. It seems that anyone who takes a different view of things is immediately accused of that. The fact is that I have seen the Rovers lose to Burnley on many occasions in the past and so the recent defeat wasn't anything new to me and so didn't have the same impact. When I first started watching the Rovers the Burnley match was more of a friendly rivalry compared with the state that things are in today - hence while I want to beat them it's not the same matter of life or death as it is to some.

As for Gary, yes I think he has a plan and I would like to see him given another season to see him continue to develop it. However, with our present owners we all know that anything can happen in the summer depending who they are listening to at the time. But the thread is about should we back or sack and I believe we should back him. That doesn't make me a Venky fan or a "bigger" fan than others it's just an opinion which some of our more vocal members don't share. Fair enough, I don't have a problem with that but I will defend my viewpoint.

great post again ParsonBlue.

also I have read this morning in a couple of newspapers that Mackay and Zola have turned down the forest job. Mackay is waiting for West Ham job that might come available this summer and Zola waiting for the QPR job too. do people/fans still think they will come here to replace Bowyer if we sack him???

[Stuart]

also I have read this morning in a couple of newspapers that Mackay and Zola have turned down the forest job. Mackay is waiting for West Ham job that might come available this summer and Zola waiting for the QPR job too. do people/fans still think they will come here to replace Bowyer if we sack him???

What would happen if Bowyer was offered the Forest job - or any job?

I presume we would have no manager then.

Surely Shaw, Myers et al will have to show that they can recruit a credible manager when the time comes - not least for their own reputations. Otherwise they may as well have given the roles to me and you.

Well maybe not you. (joke)

[JBiz]

Good post.

The bit in bold probably sums up the debate. Hence why some say 'stability' whereas I call it 'status quo'.

Bowyer is simply the current manager - and they come and go - no matter whose mates they are. We need to have faith that the club is in the right hands, with those in charge making the best decision for the club. If it isn't then we are a world away from stability.

Given our precarious finances and small, low paying crowds, it seems to me that we are not in a position to remain a mid table championship club and we will slip backwards (very quickly if Venkys pull out - which they surely will without PL prospects).

So it comes down to: do we stick or twist - and when?

...and can we afford to stick?

The "right hands" in my view are those which influence the playing side - and I agree "We need to have faith" but with the manager as opposed to the businessmen. The current manager has been very "pas mal" up to date, making equally excellent and confusing decisions. On the other hand, The "suits" in control of affairs have proven themselves to be nothing but complete charlatans. Cite; 12 months ago our own owners calling Derek Shaw a "Rogue Chairman" after losing the club 1.5m in compensation.

The time my be coming sooner rather than later when Venkys pull the plug. You may see this as being a death knell, but I like many others will see the positive, the end of the family that destroyed what one man took 20 years to build and sustain. I know there are others with blood on their hands and I'm not going down the super agent, bald buffoon or careless walker trust route with this post. (as I can't be arsed re-writing Agents, Rovers and Cricket loving owners)

If we take more relegations at the cost of administration - I will be well and truly gutted. Constant upheaval of staff, players etc will speed this up IMO, Leeds, Sheff Wednesday, Sheff united, Man City, Norwich, Wolves as examples. The person(s) to blame will not be the manager(s) during these periods for each of these clubs, because in most cases they where replaced. In the few that changed ownership regularly, saddled with debt, lies and a talent drain - what difference is a top manager going to make? In the BRFC argument, the next owners could be even more shabby. I shudder at the thought of some of our "VIP" fans having a say aka a few from the action group, or we could face even more ridiculously bad advised owners who's interests lie in promotion of their products.

Flip side of the coin; a change of ownership has the potential to return us to some manner of the "stability" mentioned. Under the "Chicken Pluckers" we have lurched from one calamity to the next - like a really crap rollercoaster that shows no sign of stopping. Even now we climb the hill on the chain ready to fly down into financial meltdown and oblivion. Stability in terms of the decision making being concise, made by the correct people for the correct reasons etc. People who know the game. Notice, I have hardly used "stability" as a term regarding the team at current because of the upheaval of playing staff. To get stability on the pitch the players need time to know tactics, each other and their individual roles within a squad. Changing constantly detracts from this hence why people use the term in defence of Gary.

Back to the ownership point you make; one would hope we could be lucky enough to have someone buy us without the intention of making a return. More Realistically, if a consortium including rich fans of club could get us into a position where we simply had to break even- that I could not have a problem with. People who KNOW the club, the area, the ****ing game we are playing at least would be a start.

Then at least it would be much easier to say; "We need to have faith that the club is in the right hands, with those in charge making the best decision for the club"

[chaddyrovers]

What would happen if Bowyer was offered the Forest job - or any job?

I presume we would have no manager then.

did I say that?

I just think Mackay and Zola were unrealistic choices for the rovers cos I just think they wouldn't come.

realistic names are managers like Dingle Coyle, Mowbray, McLeish, Robinson, Dowie, Megson.

defo wouldn't want Coyle. not sure the rest would be better than Bowyer tbh IMO

[Gav]

If Bowyer was sacked I'd bring in Neil Warnock, regardless of what anyone thinks about the guy he gets teams promoted.

I think far too many of the current crop coast through games, well one things guaranteed with Warnock they'd do it once and wouldn't do it again!

Bowyer for me has done a terrific job, but I just don’t see him being capable of taking us to that next level, but a Warnock type can get an extra 10-15% out of average players which just might be the enough to get us up.

[Stuart]

Back to the ownership point you make; one would hope we could be lucky enough to have someone buy us without the intention of making a return. More Realistically, if a consortium including rich fans of club could get us into a position where we simply had to break even- that I could not have a problem with. People who KNOW the club, the area, the ****ing game we are playing at least would be a start.

Then at least it would be much easier to say; "We need to have faith that the club is in the right hands, with those in charge making the best decision for the club"

I honestly can't see that kind of post-Venkys ownership. I can see a Pompey-style rescue - at best. I just hope the Rovers Trust and Action Group work together not in competition.

Just for the record, I'm not suggesting that we do have owners we can trust, just that we have to have that if we can claim stability. Sounds like we are on the same page on that front.

Where we differ is to think that, without that foundation, we can have any chance of stability based on the manager being able to put a side out. You say, the players need time to get used to tactics. I can understand the sentiment. However, from what I've seen, I don't think Bowyer has the tactical acumen to take us forward. If taking us forward means a minimum of reaching the play-offs.

If he is learning then I'm prepared to extend my patience once more, and I'm particularly keen to see if he puts Lowe back as his midfield fulcrum once he is fit again. If he does then he has learnt nothing as far as I am concerned. I said long ago I thought the Lowe decision would define Bowyer's reign. I stand by that.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

Parson Blue, Bucks and Chaddy have some some valid points just as people on the other side of the fence.

The name calling is childish and is playing into Venky's hands. Divide and conquer and all that.

This thread is about Bowyer and his ability to do the job. So Bowyer's plus points include someone, either him or his scouting network, can pick out some decent players at this level. Negative points include that he is tactical naive at best and possibily stubborn.

This to me is the single most important equation. Which of the two is greater or can we come up with an alternative which can improve the situation. IMO, Rovers have the basis of a squad which should be higher up this division, even challenging the likes of Burnley and Leicester for the top 2 but we are stuck mid table. Why is this? To me the manager has to take the majority of the blame. He has struggled to achieve any sort of balance. He may not need sacking granted but maybe a little guidance from a short term advisor maybe an answer.

The next point is stability of the club. Well is that him or the overall running by Shelfy? Open to debate who it is or with so many squad changes has stability been achieved any way?

Finally the point about Venky's not being able to pick a manager with ability is not really a point is it? So your saying well he is not doing well but we could have worse. Yes we could but then we could have better. Law of averages says eventually even in the cease pit we seem to pick managers from we'll get it right.

[ABBEY]

Divide and conquer was set in motion when the free holiday was done .

[roverandout]

sorry chaddy, u don't think McLeish would be better than bowyer? really? lets look at the differences in them shall we?? on second thoughts I cant be bothered as im wasting my breath

[dingles staying down 4ever]

Divide and conquer was set in motion when the free holiday was done .

Doesn't mean we have to play by them rules though does it?

[Stuart]

Divide and conquer was set in motion when the free holiday was done .

I think a third of the Pune 9 + 2 have given that impression.

Another third have been quite contrite about what they had hoped to achieve and didn't.

The middle third have kept very quiet.

However, none of them put out a strong enough message when the time came - long after the exploratory visit (FF view) slash purchase-of-fans-loyalty (the commonly held view behind Venkys/Advisors motives) - when the join fans open letter to Venkys was poo-poo'd.

[Majiball]

Agreed. Is it anti chaddy or just anti anyone who doesn't fall in line with constant negativity?

Either way this MB is barely tolerable these days. (There you go, a bit more negativity! It's good to fit in)

What utter rubbish, why you say those things? Me Rovers fan, me have season ticket, stupid comment.

If people want respect they earn it and can start by treating others in the manner they demand they be treated. Post as he does above and what do you expect people to do? How would you respond if I said that in front of you and spoke as above?

Chaddy is as guilty as those you accuse.

But I agree this place has become too much, but change will need both aspects to concede, can chaddy change and treat others in the same manner he demands??? Will others then treat him better???

[Wing Wizard Windy Miller]

If Bowyer is good enough, then can someone please explain how all of a sudden Bournemouth, yep BOURNEMOUTH, are now world beaters and in with a sniff of the playoffs? Given that our squad is bigger and certainly on paper, better to a man.

[perthblue02]

If Bowyer is good enough, then can someone please explain how all of a sudden Bournemouth, yep BOURNEMOUTH, are now world beaters and in with a sniff of the playoffs? Given that our squad is bigger and certainly on paper, better to a man.

stability? just a guess seems to be quite popular at the moment.

Edit: Looks like the have been clever or lucky in the transfer market http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/bournemouth-afc/transfers/verein_989.html lots of movement /loans so not much stability, perhaps they bought players to fit the team structure and not base the formation around certain players and have a go for a win mentality. Quite puzzling as I thought stability was the key to getting out this league

[thenodrog]

Reading thought Brendan Rodgers was only a youth team coach when he was sacked. He ain't done badly since then

Odd that he doesn't appear to be getting then acclaim for revitalising Liverpool without spending much money.

Only time that I've seen Swansea play is when I was a guest at Ewood when we won 4-2 (I think). They were an absolute delight to watch. We had about 5 attempts and scored 4 of them whilst Swansea dominated possession with their excellent passing and movement as I've since seen them do time and again since on the TV. I rem commenting at the time that if they'd had a really top line striker or two they'd have murdered us. Well Liverpool have and look at them go now.

Arrogant beggar that Brendan Rogers and a sweaty to boot but he can certainly manage a team well. Good shout imo for the next England manager and until then Woy should pay heed to his methods of getting the ball to a front two.

[thenodrog]

Utter rubbish. Look at the history of these fixtures. Burnley win some, we win some. The fact that we have hardly played them for the past thirty odd years has given some a superiority complex. Clearly, you don't remember the excellent games in the sixties when Burnley and Rovers regularly beat each other. Perhaps Jack Marshall was a bad manager for actually allowing Burnley to do the "double" over the Rovers. I really despair of our fanbase at times.

Exactly. The Burnley defeat was disappointing and has to be significantly down to managerial and refereeing mistakes, but one match is not the criteria by which a team, a season or a manager should be judged. Personally I was more perturbed by the Bournemouth performance ... although tbh Bournemouth are on a good run at the moment.

[thenodrog]

Some of you need to have a word with yourselves, the anti chaddy stuff is bordering on bullying, get a keaning grip.

Correct Gav.

[Stuart]

Exactly. The Burnley defeat was disappointing and has to be significantly down to managerial and refereeing mistakes, but one match is not the criteria by which a team, a season or a manager should be judged. Personally I was more perturbed by the Bournemouth performance ... although tbh Bournemouth are on a good run at the moment.

I'd like to know when Bowyer's Rovers are going to go on a good run.

[thenodrog]

Not been on the site much recently so haven't read all the posts in all the topics but from what I have seen on this thread the criticism of Parson and Chaddy is extremely unfair and OTT.

True Chaddy never sees anything bad in any individual happening or result and would draw the positives out of a 5-0 defeat. However his unfailing optimism and support should be applauded in my eyes and whilst I might not agree with Parson on the level of progress being made at the current time I wholeheartedly agree with his basic stance that you stick with your Club through thick and thin. And we've had far thinner times than this in the past and I don't think pointing that out makes you a bore or a patronising fan.

Where I do worry though is that after 12 months in charge, do we or GB know our preferred formation/style of play or our best eleven players? It wouldn't appear so and the constant influx of new players and exodus or freezing out of of others tends to pose more questions than it answers imo. Despite the fact recent results have been disappointing, is there a pattern emerging and are we playing particularly well in a manner which gives cause for optimism next season? Again I would say not.

I hesitate to say that GB should be replaced at this stage but if he's still in charge next season I would want to see an immediate and very marked improvement. "Stability" is all well and good and a worthwhile aspiration if you're top of the Premiership, if you're anywhere else "improvement" or "progress" should be the watchword and if you're almost exactly half way down the second tier like we are, there's plenty of scope for that.

About right that Simon. Bowyer has brought reallity and honesty back to the club but he's been hamprered by ill luck. His team selections and tactics will not ever see us to a top 2 finish imo which must be the aim of every club every August.

[somersetrover]

I'm personally still undecided on whether to sack Bowyer or not, progress has been made this season but I personally think that with the squad we have that we should have achieved more this season. We have played well numerous times this season but we just haven't put that consistent run together, which has been the biggest disappointment. Also he has been very unlucky with injuries King got injured when he was on top form as did Evans and Marshall and Cairney has now been out for about a month, perhaps them being fit and giving us a consistent starting eleven would have brought more consistency in results . He signed a couple duds but his major transfers have all been a success.

Personally I don't think that Bowyer deserves the sack for the job he has done this year but I do wonder whether another manger (of which there are many options) would have achieved more with this squad. However if we don't start well in the first 7 or 8 games of next season then it would be time for a change.

However I don't buy in to this stability thing that Bowyer has brought, granted this season has been more stable but that is not due to Bowyer it is actually due to The Venkys. This season they have kept their mouths shut, kept one manager, offloaded a fair bit of the rubbish on the pitch and got rid of Agnew and Shebby of the pitch, those are the reasons why the club has been more stable this season.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just look where Palace are now. Before they appointed Pulis they were dead men. Then tell me an experienced manager wouldn't have made any difference.

[K-Hod]

Just look where Palace are now. Before they appointed Pulis they were dead men. Then tell me an experienced manager wouldn't have made any difference.

Quite right. Look at Derby in our league as well.

[somersetrover]

Just look where Palace are now. Before they appointed Pulis they were dead men. Then tell me an experienced manager wouldn't have made any difference.

There again look in our league Milwall brought in Holloway who at this level is very experienced and they are now in a worse position. And then off course there is Redknapp at QPR who is the most experienced manager in the league with comfortably the best squad and the most money to spend, yet they are only 4th when they should be coasting the league.

[gumboots]

Of course it would but who's to say they'd appoint one. They almost certainly wouldn't and we could get worse than bowyer - remember that.

[Baz]

This thread is about Bowyer and his ability to do the job. So Bowyer's plus points include someone, either him or his scouting network, can pick out some decent players at this level. Negative points include that he is tactical naive at best and possibily stubborn.

This to me is the single most important equation. Which of the two is greater or can we come up with an alternative which can improve the situation. IMO, Rovers have the basis of a squad which should be higher up this division, even challenging the likes of Burnley and Leicester for the top 2 but we are stuck mid table. Why is this? To me the manager has to take the majority of the blame. He has struggled to achieve any sort of balance.

You list his scouting network as a positive, whereas personally i see his signings as a negative. Yes theres been a couple of decent buys, but plenty of poor ones too. Yes every manager makes poor choices, but Bowyer has made a lot of poor choices for me. Given this and the budget for a playing squad we have, I wouldnt say we are improved much on last seasons squad. Look at the relative signings made by Souness in this league (Friedel, Berkovic, Bent, Short, Berg, Hughes) vs the 20+ of Bowyer. To me Bowyer signs players if they are available, whereas Souness thought about weaknesses in his squad and went and brought in players to fill them. Souness was in no way a tactical genius, he just got a team of top quality players together.