[Archived] Back Or Sack?

[Majiball]

I can't really argue with any of that, I feel the same way on most points you've made. But as supporters we can't do anything about the finances of the club, I've come to terms with that over the course of this season.

Bowyer has without doubt cost us points this season with his negative approach and trying to defend leads, but he's a rookie manager learning his trade so mistakes are bound to happen. Is he learning from them? I'm sure he is, although it's been disappointing to lose points in the manner we have of late.

We are dealing with the unknown RE: our finances and that will always raise concerns. Next year one season in the prem will not suffice to clear them, it won't currently either as we'd need to spend more. Never in our clubs history have we faced this type of crisis, you can highlight the teabag days but we had a board etce etc all working towards the same goal. Now we just appear to be brushing it under the carpet and hoping it goes away. In my experience that method will only lead to disaster.

My worry is he isn't learning. I highlighted subs, tactics and fitness in october/november and now everyone is doing so. I like to deal in facts and if he was learning surely we would see something by now? Instead it's our fault. i hope that was just a comment born out of emotion as if he truly sees it that way IE them and us, well that's not good.

[Parsonblue]

I know what your saying but I'm just trying to be fair to the man... I've always said it's about getting us into the playoffs, if he does that then he's earned the right to have another go as I could accept that as progress.

I thought Bowyer was on a rolling contract? No payoff necessary?

I think that it is an automatic twelve months salary when he departs. I may be wrong but that is usually the case with a rolling contract.

[Old Bay]

I'm torn to be honest. This has been a better season than I had expected. Going into it I was hoping for a stable mid table performance after the last couple of years. I think Bowyer's given us more than that and I think overall his tenure has been more positive than negative. But we have dropped points where we really shouldn't. I don't have the connections to the club in person so it's hard at times for me to get a feel for the atmosphere, but his comments to the fans isn't right. I don't think booing is right really, but he can't say that, especially after a result like that at home vs Yeovil. Seeing him now having lead the squad to 10 in a row undefeated it's just hard to justify sacking him in my mind. But if the goal was promotion or bust then that's obviously not been fulfilled (well, yet, and looking less likely).

The post above that said if we were to make the playoffs and then not make it would probably be the most 'acceptable' version of not getting promotion. But it is hard to stomach the what ifs considering how decent our scoring has been this year and how many late leads we've lost.

I'm still of the wait and see to evaluate. If there's a manager out there that has a better pedigree and could most likely take us up next year than fine, but I wouldn't sack him for another questionable hire.

[RevidgeBlue]

"Bloody hell Football eh" as Fergie famously once said.

Have we just spent the last month or two questioning the credentials and calling for the head of a man who might yet sneak us into the playoffs at the last minute and even guide us to the untold riches of the Premier League?

The way the season has gone I still think this will be an excruciating near miss and another season of massive underachievement but I do so hope we have all got it terribly wrong.

On a side note anyone saying we're not ready to go up yet is off their rocker. We desperately need the money and we can worry about how we're going to finish 17th afterwards.. Do you think Burnley are worried about how they're going to fare next season at the moment?

[Gav]

We are dealing with the unknown RE: our finances and that will always raise concerns. Next year one season in the prem will not suffice to clear them, it won't currently either as we'd need to spend more. Never in our clubs history have we faced this type of crisis, you can highlight the teabag days but we had a board etce etc all working towards the same goal. Now we just appear to be brushing it under the carpet and hoping it goes away. In my experience that method will only lead to disaster.

My worry is he isn't learning. I highlighted subs, tactics and fitness in october/november and now everyone is doing so. I like to deal in facts and if he was learning surely we would see something by now? Instead it's our fault. i hope that was just a comment born out of emotion as if he truly sees it that way IE them and us, well that's not good.

I think the criticism of the fans was out of order and Ill informed. But on the flip side of that he's spent most of this season praising the support, especially away, so it's swings and roundabouts.

As for Bowyer learning, he's a rookie manager currently enjoying a run of 9 games unbeaten, when was the last time we had a manager that could say that?

[Neal]

I think that it is an automatic twelve months salary when he departs. I may be wrong but that is usually the case with a rolling contract.

Ok. I would of thought that would have only been payable if we enter into the next term with him as manager then decide to let him go.

[blueboy3333]

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/league-championship/2012-2013

Last seasons final league table. We are already 6points better off with 2 games to play. The much feted Mick McCarthy is only 4 points better off.

Leicester 68 points last season in Pearsons 2nd full season in charge. This is Bowyers 1st full season.

The only clubs who have made more progress than us this season are Burnley, Leicester and Derby.

Who is to say things won't improve again next season? Our away form has certainly improved this season, to a level not seen since Hughes was at the club. Again, thats progress. And the signings are certainly the best since Hughes left as regards value for money and relative quality.

I know it's hilarious to trot out the stability mantra as a pejorative (weird in itself), but what has actually happened this season has been progress, To want to get rid of Bowyer now is short-sighted and utter madness. Let him get a few more quality players in during the close season and then see how we go next season. Too many people are being blinded by a few bad results and performances. It happens, its a new team with a new manager in a competetive league. Get some perspective FFS!

[Blue blood]

An excellent mature discussion by Gav and Majiball with some great points made. (See it's possible to disagree gracefully!)

Personally I fall more in line with Maji's view that Bowyer isn't learning. It does seem to be the same mistakes over and over again. Perhaps the two biggest factors not mentioned as much in the discussion are:

a) who is doing the hiring and firing?

how much time we have

I bet fewer people would be reluctant to let Bowyer go if someone else was doing the hiring rather than Venkys or Shaw. But equally, I bet people would be a lot more patient with Bowyer if we didn't have the crippling debt that needs a PL cash injection asap to stop them (the finances) destroying the club.

For me the financial situation tips it. We need promotion asap and I'm not convinced Bowyer's at the level needed to get us up next season. We're going to run out of chances very soon.

[den]

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/league-championship/2012-2013

Last seasons final league table. We are already 6points better off with 2 games to play. The much feted Mick McCarthy is only 4 points better off.

Leicester 68 points last season in Pearsons 2nd full season in charge. This is Bowyers 1st full season.

The only clubs who have made more progress than us this season are Burnley, Leicester and Derby.

Who is to say things won't improve again next season? Our away form has certainly improved this season, to a level not seen since Hughes was at the club. Again, thats progress. And the signings are certainly the best since Hughes left as regards value for money and relative quality.

I know it's hilarious to trot out the stability mantra as a pejorative (weird in itself), but what has actually happened this season has been progress, To want to get rid of Bowyer now is short-sighted and utter madness. Let him get a few more quality players in during the close season and then see how we go next season. Too many people are being blinded by a few bad results and performances. It happens, its a new team with a new manager in a competetive league. Get some perspective FFS!

And to believe we can trot along adding a player here and a player there, whilst seeing debt soar to around the £100m mark is utter madness. That's why we needed to go up THIS season and that's why, if we don't go up, we employed the wrong man. There won't be many, if any, second chances. Some of you guys are in dreamland.

[Majiball]

I think the criticism of the fans was out of order and Ill informed. But on the flip side of that he's spent most of this season praising the support, especially away, so it's swings and roundabouts.

As for Bowyer learning, he's a rookie manager currently enjoying a run of 9 games unbeaten, when was the last time we had a manager that could say that?

Given how many we have lost I don't think you can do it once at all. We desperately need more if anything. The LT has also been on our cases recently, it all adds up and ends up with even less.

Actually it's 10 now Don't get me wrong that is great and good to see, but at the same time we've picked up 4 wins and six draws or 18 points from 30. That's OK but no more when the need is promotion, i would quite happily swap two or three of those draws for an extra win or two as we would be in the play-offs, proving progress was being made and giving better hope for next year. As things stand we have never been in the play-offs and so in reference to next season we are looking to do something we currently never have.

PS Blueblood is right it has been a pleasant change, thank you GAV

[Blue blood]

And to believe we can trot along adding a player here and a player there, whilst seeing debt soar to around the £100m mark is utter madness. That's why we needed to go up THIS season and that's why, if we don't go up, we employed the wrong man. There won't be many, if any, second chances. Some of you guys are in dreamland.

Utterly agree. The decision of success HAS to be taken in light of our financial situation, and whilst no one knows 100% all the evidence shouts out that we'll soon be financially doomed.

Last season must be our last chance. Assuming it hasn't already gone - £8 million less parachute payment. The only ways to get through that is by getting rid of players making us weaker or adding more debt making us even more unsustainable.

[den]

Utterly agree. The decision of success HAS to be taken in light of our financial situation, and whilst no one knows 100% all the evidence shouts out that we'll soon be financially doomed.

Last season must be our last chance. Assuming it hasn't already gone - £8 million less parachute payment. The only ways to get through that is by getting rid of players making us weaker or adding more debt making us even more unsustainable.

Or the Raos continually paying a million or two every month out of their own pocket to keep a club in the Championship. How likely is that?

[Black Burn]

The assumption is that a new "experienced" manager will bring promotion. I think that's more unrealistic than sacking Bowyer and replacing him with an experienced manager, and that's saying something because knowing the Venkys the chances of that happening is unlikely.

But let's say it does happen. Will McKay guarantee promotion? Will David Moyes? How about Rednapp, Holloway and McCarthy? Or whatever so-called experienced managers that are being thrown out here like they're a commodity ("satisfaction/promotion GUARANTEED")

Let's look at the season now, and get real. Rednapp failed to get Queen Park Rangers automatic promotion despite his wealth of experience or a Premiership squad that was mostly kept intact despite being relegated last season. McCarthy, despite being so much more experienced than Bowyer, is barely a point ahead of us. Holloway? He's doing a real good job of keeping Millwall away from relegated, isn't he? Hmm......but it could be better, especially since he's supposed to be experienced with promotion. Or Billy Davies? Oh wait, he got sacked by Nottingham Forest, just like the aforementioned Holloway was by Crystal Palace.

My point is that experience doesn't guarantee promotion. Even if we get the experienced manager you guys so desperately crave, it doesn't mean we'll automatically go up. We might end up like Ipswich, just barely missing out on playoffs again. And what happens if we don't get promoted? Are you guys going to start calling for the manager's head again, as you did with Bowyer? Holloway out? Moyes out? McCarthy out? Because the next manager is just somehow going to do better? Really?

All this talk about us "ABSOLUTELY MUST" go up this season or we're doomed. Like I said, is it an absolute that an experienced manager or a different one would get us promoted? If you think we'll automatically go up the moment we get that dream "experienced" manager you want, maybe you're the one in dreamland. As I said, what happens if the new manager doesn't get us promoted? Fire again and hire a new manager? Repeat vicious cycle until we are lucky enough to get a manager who finally gets us promoted, experience or not? That might take us twenty years.

Let's look at the two teams who got promoted this season. First is Leicester City, who stuck with Nigel Pearson for at least 3 years. Next is our hated rivals Burnley, who admittedly did the right thing by keeping their faith in Dyche despite fans wanting him out around the same time this season (deja vu, anyone?). Instead of firing and hiring a supposedly experienced manager and praying that the supposedly higher chances will "guarantee" promotion, why don't we stick with stability and reap the fruits after being patient.

I know you guys want to go up NOW NOW NOW because of financial problems, debts, etc. but those debts and financial problems will backfire on us and increase tremendously if those "experienced" managers with "higher" chances of success fail to get us promoted, much like Rednapp, McCarthy, Davies (maybe one of them will get their team promoted, but the rest will just prove my point). You have to pay them off to hire new managers. You have to spend even more money to restructure the entire team to fit the new manager's playstyle and tactics. That will add to the debt if everything fails. Instead, this season is evidence that stability brings about a higher chance of success at promotion rather than gambling on a quick fix that disguises itself as an "experienced" manager.

That's just my opinion, but obviously most of you are more well-informed and intelligent than a half-baked idiot like me.

[Blue blood]

Or the Raos continually paying a million or two every month out of their own pocket to keep a club in the Championship. How likely is that?

Assuming that they can and are willing to. Not sure so far what they've done in our best interests. Every decision made so far has been wrong.

Also are they really that rich? It's unsustainable and eventually the plug will be pulled. Assuming we keep loosing a million or two every month PLUS the £8 million in reduced revenues - at best I make that a £20 million loss for the season, Not sure they'd want that, or how long they can keep that up for.

[Majiball]

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/league-championship/2012-2013

Lots of stuff you don't need to scroll through again

I know it's hilarious to trot out the stability mantra as a pejorative (weird in itself), but what has actually happened this season has been progress, To want to get rid of Bowyer now is short-sighted and utter madness. Let him get a few more quality players in during the close season and then see how we go next season. Too many people are being blinded by a few bad results and performances. It happens, its a new team with a new manager in a competetive league. Get some perspective FFS!

And who's is to say it won't get worse? Just as you say it will get better there are many examples of the opposite in this game.

how do you know he hasn't had the facility to get in better players this season? We have signed when we needed too.

Every single one of your points unfortunately is an assumption and that is dangerous ground. Bowyer is not Pearson, Dyche or anyone else, he is a unique individual and how knows if he can do what the others have. I believe one club decided to employ like their previous boss and did everything possible to aid him in his quest, but alas Moyes proved unworthy. Because of it all being an assumption and football being the way it is, for every comparison you raise I can raise a similar one where the result is very different.

Please consider leaving out get some perspective FFS as that is my perspective, so clearly I have some and I've highlighted facts, not assumptions.

The assumption is that a new "experienced" manager will bring promotion. I think that's more unrealistic than sacking Bowyer and replacing him with an experienced manager, and that's saying something because knowing the Venkys the chances of that happening is unlikely.

Lots of stuff you don't need to scroll through again

I know you guys want to go up NOW NOW NOW because of financial problems, debts, etc. but those debts and financial problems will backfire on us and increase tremendously if those "experienced" managers with "higher" chances of success fail to get us promoted, much like Rednapp, McCarthy, Davies (maybe one of them will get their team promoted, but the rest will just prove my point). You have to pay them off to hire new managers. You have to spend even more money to restructure the entire team to fit the new manager's playstyle and tactics. That will add to the debt if everything fails. Instead, this season is evidence that stability brings about a higher chance of success at promotion rather than gambling on a quick fix that disguises itself as an "experienced" manager.

That's just my opinion, but obviously most of you are more well-informed and intelligent than a half-baked idiot like me.

Just like in betting you bet placed on risk. The bigger the risk the bigger the odds and the return, of course. But when you want to increase your odds of winning as that's the aim then you can increase your chances of doing so. If someone has achieved what you desire, then they are more likely to be able to do so again, than someone who has never done it at all. Calculated risk is the game you play in football, you can shorten your odds and improve your chances of winning.

PS how will going up and increasing our income by over 100m over the next four years even if relegated, increase our debt long term? Surely now we have a finance director etc etc they will be prudent and do a Burnley and keep most back to clear said debts?

[Black Burn]

And who's is to say it won't get worse? Just as you say it will get better there are many examples of the opposite in this game.

how do you know he hasn't had the facility to get in better players this season? We have signed when we needed too.

Every single one of your points unfortunately is an assumption and that is dangerous ground. Bowyer is not Pearson, Dyche or anyone else, he is a unique individual and how knows if he can do what the others have. I believe one club decided to employ like their previous boss and did everything possible to aid him in his quest, but alas Moyes proved unworthy. Because of it all being an assumption and football being the way it is, for every comparison you raise I can raise a similar one where the result is very different.

Please consider leaving out get some perspective FFS as that is my perspective, so clearly I have some and I've highlighted facts, not assumptions.

That doesn't sound like facts to me. I can turn your arugment the other way round and point out that Bowyer is not Moyes. That brings us back to square one.

And as I said, an experienced or new manager coming in and guaranteeing us promotion is yet another assumption. Now, I'm not assuming that Bowyer will get us promoted this season or next season. I do not believe we will get promoted in the near future (next couple of years), and that's just a feeling I have, it's not a fact. It's my gut feeling, and it's even worse than an assumption.

What I am trying to ask for is stability. Even if Bowyer fails to get us promoted, he has the pedigree to keep us in the Championship. Assuming (and that's what you all are doing about the debts and financial situation. None of us know exactly what will happen, but we are all assuming it will go bad) our financial situation goes really bad, who do you want at the helm? An experienced manager who demands high-spending, profilic players and a big budget, or Bowyer, whose cost-cutting methods have proven to be important in keeping us in the top half of the table this season? Even if Bowyer can't get us promoted, I can see him keeping us safe from relegation with his experience in youth and all. Keep in mind, this is of course, my assumption, and it is no more an assumption than your assumption that we are DOOMED if we don't go up this season, or your assumption that we will fall into financial meltdown.

So I'm going to assume what I've always assumed, and you're of course welcome to assume what you've always assumed. And you can assume that I'm an ass for assuming stuff that you assume to be incredibly delusional.

Just like in betting you bet placed on risk. The bigger the risk the bigger the odds and the return, of course. But when you want to increase your odds of winning as that's the aim then you can increase your chances of doing so. If someone has achieved what you desire, then they are more likely to be able to do so again, than someone who has never done it at all. Calculated risk is the game you play in football, you can shorten your odds and improve your chances of winning.

PS how will going up and increasing our income by over 100m over the next four years even if relegated, increase our debt long term? Surely now we have a finance director etc etc they will be prudent and do a Burnley and keep most back to clear said debts?

That's assuming we get promoted in the first place. My question was, what if we hire these so-called experienced managers, and fail to get promoted? The debt will increase, won't it? Especially since we have to pay to hire these managers in the first place, rebuild the team, then sack them in a scenario of failure. Unless that last question isn't directed to me.

I have to ask how you calculate your risk. We probably have very different ideas as what calculated risk entails, or what kind of risks should be taken. As the trend goes, having an experienced manager doesn't necessarily improve the chances of promotion. There are easily about 15 "experienced" managers in the Championship, and while a good number of those admittedly have not experienced promotion before, only 3 of them will earn promotion. And as we saw this season, 2 out of those 3 have been confirmed to be relatively inexperienced managers (okay, maybe Pearson isn't inexperienced) whom the board kept faith in. I calculate my risk based on that, as well as the structure built up by long-term managers such as David Moyes (maybe not a good example now), Arsene Wenger and Alex Ferguson. I have my reasons for not believing that everything is doom and gloom regarding the financial meltdown, and it has nothing to do with insider information but that's besides the point, hence my advocation for stability rather than a quick fix that could very well turn into a quick jinx.

[Majiball]

That doesn't sound like facts to me. I can turn your arugment the other way round and point out that Bowyer is not Moyes. That brings us back to square one.

And as I said, an experienced or new manager coming in and guaranteeing us promotion is yet another assumption. Now, I'm not assuming that Bowyer will get us promoted this season or next season. I do not believe we will get promoted in the near future (next couple of years), and that's just a feeling I have, it's not a fact. It's my gut feeling, and it's even worse than an assumption.

What I am trying to ask for is stability. Even if Bowyer fails to get us promoted, he has the pedigree to keep us in the Championship. Assuming (and that's what you all are doing about the debts and financial situation. None of us know exactly what will happen, but we are all assuming it will go bad) our financial situation goes really bad, who do you want at the helm? An experienced manager who demands high-spending, profilic players and a big budget, or Bowyer, whose cost-cutting methods have proven to be important in keeping us in the top half of the table this season? Even if Bowyer can't get us promoted, I can see him keeping us safe from relegation with his experience in youth and all. Keep in mind, this is of course, my assumption, and it is no more an assumption than your assumption that we are DOOMED if we don't go up this season, or your assumption that we will fall into financial meltdown.

So I'm going to assume what I've always assumed, and you're of course welcome to assume what you've always assumed. And you can assume that I'm an ass for assuming stuff that you assume to be incredibly delusional.

Please read my previous posts, I have dealt in points, league positions, highest league position this season, what they have done before in business etc etc. Or facts, no assumptions. i highlighted Moyes to display that when making assumptions the opposite can happen as well as the good.

[Black Burn]

Please read my previous posts, I have dealt in points, league positions, highest league position this season, what they have done before in business etc etc. Or facts, no assumptions. i highlighted Moyes to display that when making assumptions the opposite can happen as well as the good.

Sorry, I was referring to your sentence regarding Moyes, and how it applied to Bowyer, not your previous posts.

[Majiball]

Sorry, I was referring to your sentence regarding Moyes, and how it applied to Bowyer, not your previous posts.

As I said yes he could do a Pearson, but he could also do worse, he has never done it before and as he isn't those individuals you cannot say what you have, as clearly the opposite has happened in the game before.

I highlighted that your whole argument was conjecture in support of GB, conjecture is nothing more than a guess.

I really am not following where you have taken my reply if being honest.

[Majiball]

That doesn't sound like facts to me. I can turn your arugment the other way round and point out that Bowyer is not Moyes. That brings us back to square one.

And as I said, an experienced or new manager coming in and guaranteeing us promotion is yet another assumption. Now, I'm not assuming that Bowyer will get us promoted this season or next season. I do not believe we will get promoted in the near future (next couple of years), and that's just a feeling I have, it's not a fact. It's my gut feeling, and it's even worse than an assumption.

What I am trying to ask for is stability. Even if Bowyer fails to get us promoted, he has the pedigree to keep us in the Championship. Assuming (and that's what you all are doing about the debts and financial situation. None of us know exactly what will happen, but we are all assuming it will go bad) our financial situation goes really bad, who do you want at the helm? An experienced manager who demands high-spending, profilic players and a big budget, or Bowyer, whose cost-cutting methods have proven to be important in keeping us in the top half of the table this season? Even if Bowyer can't get us promoted, I can see him keeping us safe from relegation with his experience in youth and all. Keep in mind, this is of course, my assumption, and it is no more an assumption than your assumption that we are DOOMED if we don't go up this season, or your assumption that we will fall into financial meltdown.

So I'm going to assume what I've always assumed, and you're of course welcome to assume what you've always assumed. And you can assume that I'm an ass for assuming stuff that you assume to be incredibly delusional.

That's assuming we get promoted in the first place. My question was, what if we hire these so-called experienced managers, and fail to get promoted? The debt will increase, won't it? Especially since we have to pay to hire these managers in the first place, rebuild the team, then sack them in a scenario of failure. Unless that last question isn't directed to me.

I have to ask how you calculate your risk. We probably have very different ideas as what calculated risk entails, or what kind of risks should be taken. As the trend goes, having an experienced manager doesn't necessarily improve the chances of promotion. There are easily about 15 "experienced" managers in the Championship, and while a good number of those admittedly have not experienced promotion before, only 3 of them will earn promotion. And as we saw this season, 2 out of those 3 have been confirmed to be relatively inexperienced managers (okay, maybe Pearson isn't inexperienced) whom the board kept faith in. I calculate my risk based on that, as well as the structure built up by long-term managers such as David Moyes (maybe not a good example now), Arsene Wenger and Alex Ferguson. I have my reasons for not believing that everything is doom and gloom regarding the financial meltdown, and it has nothing to do with insider information but that's besides the point, hence my advocation for stability rather than a quick fix that could very well turn into a quick jinx.

As I said you can improve your odds, it's all about the man at the top in football.

You cannot compare us to those clubs, we are in nothing like the state they are.

I won't be replying to your next post just so you know as I think I have had enough for today. I honestly don't think some read what I write when I reply. have a good day.

[Black Burn]

As I said yes he could do a Pearson, but he could also do worse, he has never done it before and as he isn't those individuals you cannot say what you have, as clearly the opposite has happened in the game before.

I highlighted that your whole argument was conjecture in support of GB, conjecture is nothing more than a guess.

I really am not following where you have taken my reply if being honest.

As I said you can improve your odds, it's all about the man at the top in football.

You cannot compare us to those clubs, we are in nothing like the state they are.

I won't be replying to your next post just so you know as I think I have had enough for today. I honestly don't think some read what I write when I reply. have a good day.

I think you're confusing me with someone else, I do support Gary Bowyer, but I don't think I actually written a post about that. Maybe you're referring to blueboy3333.

It's fine if you don't reply, you'll probably pick up on this tomorrow or so, and I'll wait till then.

Actually, I'm agreeing with you. I'm pointing out that I'm supporting Bowyer based on conjecture and assumptions of my own, and that you most likely are doing the same thing, making assumptions and conjecture based off what you know, the facts you gather. I guess what I meant to say is that no matter who says what, at the end of the day it's all assumptions and conjecture, and nobody's assumption/conjecture/opinion is superior to another's.

I wasn't comparing us to other clubs, I'm just explaining why I believe what I believe. Will we become like Burnley (blasphemy!) or Manchester United? Of course not. But I believe stability is key to success rather than the hire and fire formula that most clubs employ today. Of course, this is based on my own selfish opinion and my twisted view on things, and it's definitely not fact.

[Majiball]

You're are again missing the point, I have no intention of replying period. Sorry.

Bowyer has never done this before that is not conjecture it is a bloody fact, ergo the potential exists for him to fail as much as it does for him to succeed. That is all I have said and that is a fact, I find it insulting you then reply with oh your just making it up.

MODS PLEASE READ

PLEASE SOMEONE BAN ME FOR 24 HOURS, as I enjoyed debating with GAV today and would like to leave it there before I do my normal and ruin todays ambiance. PLEASE I AM ADDICTED TO THIS PLACE

[Black Burn]

You're are again missing the point, I have no intention of replying period. Sorry.

Bowyer has never done this before that is not conjecture it is a bloody fact, ergo the potential exists for him to fail as much as it does for him to succeed. That is all I have said and that is a fact, I find it insulting you then reply with oh your just making it up.

MODS PLEASE READ

PLEASE SOMEONE BAN ME FOR 24 HOURS, as I enjoyed debating with GAV today and would like to leave it there before I do my normal and ruin todays ambiance. PLEASE I AM ADDICTED TO THIS PLACE

Done what exactly? I never said Bowyer has done anything. Like I said, you're mistaking me for someone else.

I said I agree with you, that Bowyer has both the potential to succeed or fail. I have no idea what you're talking about now. And I never said you made it up.

What I said is that whether Bowyer succeeds or fail, we'll never know. We can only guess, form a conjecture or assume based on what we already know. You had your facts, you already posted them, that's why you believe what you believe. That doesn't mean Bowyer is going to end up doing what you predicted, though there's a higher chance of that happening since you so kindly provided statistics and facts of what he has already done so far and devised a pattern. It doesn't mean he will necessarily surprise you and exceed expectations either. No one knows the future, and it can go both ways.

Maybe this is where you misunderstood me. Let me try to be clearer. No one can predict the future. Period. We can guess, based on facts and what has happened so far, but guesses always have a way of falling short. I am not saying you are making things up. I'm pointing out that you can't predict the future, but you can hazard a guess as to what will most likely happen because of what you have seen and know so far. The thing is that different people make use of different facts, figures and statistics to make different guesses, but we won't know who's right until the future actually arrives.

I was arguing that an experienced manager does not guarantee success. Period. That has been and was always my underlining argument. I don't think I ever claimed that Bowyer would get us promoted. The only claim I probably made was that he will most likely keep us safe from relegation, nothing more. And this argument has got nothing to do with any of my replies to you. I just brought it up to show that you're confusing me with someone else if you were thinking of some other post "I" supposedly wrote.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Can I ask these questions of the guys who go every week 1) Do we look like a well coached team ? 2) Do we look like a well motivated team ? 3) Do we look a fit team ? 4) How many players that have come to the club have shown a significant improvement in playing ability over the season ? 5) Is every player playing to the best of his ability ?

I would imagine there will be a lot of NO answers to those questions.

[Black Burn]

Can I ask these questions of the guys who go every week 1) Do we look like a well coached team ? 2) Do we look like a well motivated team ? 3) Do we look a fit team ? 4) How many players that have come to the club have shown a significant improvement in playing ability over the season ? 5) Is every player playing to the best of his ability ?

I would imagine there will be a lot of NO answers to those questions.

I think the answer will be the same no matter what team or manager you're talking about. The only exceptions would be Leicester City, Burnley and Liverpool. All the other teams and managers......none of them look well-coached, well-motivated, or fit.

Hasn't Lowe, Williamson, Conway and Marshall improved significantly since they first started? Isn't Gestede playing to the best of his ability alongside every other player? If you want "every" player, you'll be hard-pressed to find a team except Liverpool at the moment. Even Chelsea doesn't have every player playing to the best of his ability.