[Archived] Back Or Sack?

[Blue blood]

Can I ask these questions of the guys who go every week 1) Do we look like a well coached team ? 2) Do we look like a well motivated team ? 3) Do we look a fit team ? 4) How many players that have come to the club have shown a significant improvement in playing ability over the season ? 5) Is every player playing to the best of his ability ?

I would imagine there will be a lot of NO answers to those questions.

Most important questions you've missed are:

1) are we employing the right tactics?

2) are we putting out the correct team?

That's where the biggest difference between a manager and a coach lies.

[LDRover]

I suggest that is an indication of the high standard of this Division. There aren't many 'bad' teams are there? It's a lot more unpredictable than the Premier League for starters which is a massive plus point. Logic dictates that many of the players plodding around the Championship nowadays would have played full time in the Prem 20 years ago.

17 years ago players like Sheridan, McAllister, McCall, Newell, Pallister, Wright, Bright, Barker, Hendrie, Slaven, Platt, Dixon, Bould etc. were 'plodding' around in this league.

I've not seen one player fit to lace their boots this season.

What do you base your assertion that this isn't a bad league on? There have been no performances (maybe Leicester at a push) when I've been even vaguely impressed by the opposition.

[blueboy3333]

And who's is to say it won't get worse? Just as you say it will get better there are many examples of the opposite in this game.

how do you know he hasn't had the facility to get in better players this season? We have signed when we needed too.

Every single one of your points unfortunately is an assumption and that is dangerous ground. Bowyer is not Pearson, Dyche or anyone else, he is a unique individual and how knows if he can do what the others have. I believe one club decided to employ like their previous boss and did everything possible to aid him in his quest, but alas Moyes proved unworthy. Because of it all being an assumption and football being the way it is, for every comparison you raise I can raise a similar one where the result is very different.

Please consider leaving out get some perspective FFS as that is my perspective, so clearly I have some and I've highlighted facts, not assumptions.

you need to read my post again. I didn't make a single assumption.

[booth]

No wonder and rightly so. Whilst the season has been frustrating the fact remains that with two games left we are still in contention.

Jusrt as an aside how would you have marketed it at Christmas Booth? "Roll up. Roll up and get yourselves a half ST cos it looks like we are going to stay up"?

No idea but if I was Bowyer I'd have kept quiet about it and focused my interviews on the rebuild. I wasn't on about that though. I meant that we've been a couple of wins away from being in the play off spots on quite a lot of occasions which have raised expectations leading to more frustration than if we hadn't.

[thenodrog]

17 years ago players like Sheridan, McAllister, McCall, Newell, Pallister, Wright, Bright, Barker, Hendrie, Slaven, Platt, Dixon, Bould etc. were 'plodding' around in this league.

I've not seen one player fit to lace their boots this season.

What do you base your assertion that this isn't a bad league on? There have been no performances (maybe Leicester at a push) when I've been even vaguely impressed by the opposition.

Why haven't you read my reasoning? To anybody applying a modicum of logic and reason it's pretty obvious.

[roversfan99]

I think the answer will be the same no matter what team or manager you're talking about. The only exceptions would be Leicester City, Burnley and Liverpool. All the other teams and managers......none of them look well-coached, well-motivated, or fit.

Hasn't Lowe, Williamson, Conway and Marshall improved significantly since they first started? Isn't Gestede playing to the best of his ability alongside every other player? If you want "every" player, you'll be hard-pressed to find a team except Liverpool at the moment. Even Chelsea doesn't have every player playing to the best of his ability.

Williamson has been consistently ok since he joined and no more, Lowe is still not good enough, and Bowyer plays them together, Conway has been consistently good since he joined and Marshall looked unsettled at first.

[thenodrog]

I've not changed my mind after one result, not sure how anyone has come to that conclusion??

I've been consistent all along in that I don't believe Bowyer has the credentials to take us up, but his achievements this season alone means the guy deserves to be given a chance and I'm sure the club will give him that chance so it's better to get behind him rather than hammer him. A concept lost on the 'Footballer Manager 2014' types on here.

I'm still of the opinion Bowyer won't take us up, but he deserves to be given a chance.

As for managers abilities, didn't you champion a certain Paul Ince? Even I wanted Allardyce above Ince!! Or didn't want Hughes?

Wash out your mouth!

http://www.brfcs.com/mb/index.php/topic/18689-nickos-thread-part-3/?p=625003

http://www.brfcs.com/mb/index.php/topic/18689-nickos-thread-part-3/?p=623351

there's pages of similar!

[roverandout]

black burn, you said an experienced manager does not guarantee success, rovers had one in big sam, since then they haven't had a single one, so how are we ever going to know whether that statement would be true or not?

[Baz]

black burn, you said an experienced manager does not guarantee success, rovers had one in big sam, since then they haven't had a single one, so how are we ever going to know whether that statement would be true or not?

Well it doesnt guarantee success, just makes it more likely.

[Guest Norbert]

Bring in David Moyes!

Only joking, I'd never think he'd even return Shelfie's calls. And the Raos would get confused again and sign Alison Moyet.

[gumboots]

In the end this has to be the most irrelevant topic. After a few weeks, as soon as he got the job permanently, we would all have voted for Kean to be sacked, or at least got rid of him fairly soon. What happened? He stayed and got his contract renewed they will do what they like and to heck with what we think.

[adsfortheblues]

I suggest that is an indication of the high standard of this Division. There aren't many 'bad' teams are there? It's a lot more unpredictable than the Premier League for starters which is a massive plus point. Logic dictates that many of the players plodding around the Championship nowadays would have played full time in the Prem 20 years ago.

Sorry but that is nonsense. This division is poor, very poor. Some of the sides I've seen at Ewood have been dog awful. I can't think of even one side that I think have been any good. 3 of probably 15 teams could get promoted out of this division, that's not because it's a strong division, it's because 3 of a very bad bunch have to get promoted.

[thenodrog]

Sorry but that is nonsense. This division is poor, very poor. Some of the sides I've seen at Ewood have been dog awful. I can't think of even one side that I think have been any good. 3 of probably 15 teams could get promoted out of this division, that's not because it's a strong division, it's because 3 of a very bad bunch have to get promoted.

That is more nonsense. If you are right then where are the 65% of what would have been top level (old 1st Div) players plying their trade who have been displaced from Premier League squads over the past decade by an assortment of Johnny Foreigners and Carlos Kickaballs? Or are you telling me that all those 20+ years olds have all just packed up footy and taken a pub?

The only thing that has changed by 20 years in the top flight is peoples perceptions about the quality of football on offer.

[Black Burn]

black burn, you said an experienced manager does not guarantee success, rovers had one in big sam, since then they haven't had a single one, so how are we ever going to know whether that statement would be true or not?

Look at the other teams with "experienced" managers, and please tell me who got promoted.

Holloway got Crystal Palace promoted only because Dougie Freedman (a relatively inexperienced manager) did half of the job when he was there. Mick McCarthy hasn't gotten Ipswich promoted yet, or Harry Rednapp with Queen Park Rangers and Billy Davies got sacked by Notthingham Forest after a 5-0 defeat.

Of course, I won't claim that we won't get promoted even if we get an experienced manager, as Baz says our chances will increase if we get one. However, what's the point of destabilizing the team, kicking out a young rookie manager who has done a relatively good job (well, people can disagree with me on this) and resetting a team that he had so painstakingly built? You can claim IF we had McCarthy, we would have gotten promoted, IF we had Rednapp, we would have gotten promoted, IF we had Holloway we would get promoted.

I could point out IF we had no injuries we might have gotten promoted, IF we had Conwway earlier in the season we might have gotten promoted, IF the players listened to Bowyer and played out the game against Sheffield Wednesday instead of trying to score a 4th goal we might be closer to the playoffs than now. But we'll never know.

At the end of the day, this is all ifs, buts, and speculation. The only thing I know for sure is that bringing a new manager would mean that he needs more time to build his own team, which will reset everything, and that will cost money. And he will need time for all that. Expecting instant success the first season is ridiculous. The still exists the risk - if the guy fails, are you going to call for his head and want him out again (McCarthy out this time? Holloway out this time?)?

Anyway, Bowyer's aim was never promotion, so to see us actually fighting for a playoffs spot this late in the season is a bonus. Do any of you remember what Bowyer said in the beginning of the season? He only wanted stability, to cut costs, to rebuild the team. He dismissed any talks of promotion, saying that he needs at least 2 seasons to accomplish that, and insists that his priority is stability.

Now that he has achieved that, and exceeded expectations by being a mere 3 points behind the playoff spots (damn you, Reading), people forget about that little speech of his and demand that he get sacked for failing to get us promoted in his first season? There's no such thing as instant success. Even an experienced manager needs one or two seasons to rebuild a squad to his liking and style of play. Allardyce might have gotten West Ham back up immediately, but he had to do that through playoffs (very narrow miss, but you would think an experienced manager like him would secure automatic promotion), but what other managers did it instantly? Holloway might have gotten Blackpool promoted through the playoffs in his first season, but he spent his last year at Blackpool stuck in the league despite making to playoffs (and as I mentioned earlier Dougie did half the job for him at Crystal Palace). And Holloway needed 2 or 3 years (2 and a half, to be exact) to get Queen Park Rangers promoted to the Championship. Mick McCarthy took at three and two seasons respectively to get Wolverhampton Wanderers and Sunderland promoted. And it's unlikely he'll get Ipswich promoted this season as well but I bet he will be given more time, at least another season. MacKay didn't get Watford promoted, and he took 2 seasons to get Cardiff promoted. Rednapp? The less said, the better. If he gets QPR promoted through playoffs, good for him, but you would think someone of his experience and caliber would get promoted through automatic promotion.

Even experienced managers need time. They don't promise instant success. It's unfair to demand that Bowyer should be sacked because he failed to get us promoted in one season (and that wasn't even his goal in the first place, which could explain his negative tactics and trying to draw rather than risk winning), and claim that an experienced manager will take this team up immediately. Even if we do get an experienced manager, he will need time to reach his goal. And if we're giving him time, then why can't we do the same for Bowyer, who has surpassed expectations this season?

Tell me honestly, did anyone predict that we would be this close to the playoffs at the beginning of this season? Seriously? After last season's near relegation, I thought people were claiming (perhaps not on brfcs, but on Ewood Park's Finest Reloaded) that they will be relieved if we make it to top midtable. And not only did we achieve that we're within 3 points of 6th.

I can understand the frustration from narrowly missing out on the playoffs, but I don't think that justifies sacking Bowyer. Perhaps, next season when he knows he has achieved stability and won't get relegated, he might employ more aggressive, positive tactics. In fact, he's sort of doing that now, barring the 0-0 draw with Yeovil, we scored what, 24 goals in 10 games?

[Tom]

Bowyer never aimed for promotion? That's just not good enough when its imperative for us to survive (so we are led to believe)

I wish we were told we never wanted promotion

[ABBEY]

Look at the other teams with "experienced" managers, and please tell me who got promoted.

Holloway got Crystal Palace promoted only because Dougie Freedman (a relatively inexperienced manager) did half of the job when he was there. Mick McCarthy hasn't gotten Ipswich promoted yet, or Harry Rednapp with Queen Park Rangers and Billy Davies got sacked by Notthingham Forest after a 5-0 defeat.

Of course, I won't claim that we won't get promoted even if we get an experienced manager, as Baz says our chances will increase if we get one. However, what's the point of destabilizing the team, kicking out a young rookie manager who has done a relatively good job (well, people can disagree with me on this) and resetting a team that he had so painstakingly built? You can claim IF we had McCarthy, we would have gotten promoted, IF we had Rednapp, we would have gotten promoted, IF we had Holloway we would get promoted.

I could point out IF we had no injuries we might have gotten promoted, IF we had Conwway earlier in the season we might have gotten promoted, IF the players listened to Bowyer and played out the game against Sheffield Wednesday instead of trying to score a 4th goal we might be closer to the playoffs than now. But we'll never know.

At the end of the day, this is all ifs, buts, and speculation. The only thing I know for sure is that bringing a new manager would mean that he needs more time to build his own team, which will reset everything, and that will cost money. And he will need time for all that. Expecting instant success the first season is ridiculous. The still exists the risk - if the guy fails, are you going to call for his head and want him out again (McCarthy out this time? Holloway out this time?)?

Anyway, Bowyer's aim was never promotion, so to see us actually fighting for a playoffs spot this late in the season is a bonus. Do any of you remember what Bowyer said in the beginning of the season? He only wanted stability, to cut costs, to rebuild the team. He dismissed any talks of promotion, saying that he needs at least 2 seasons to accomplish that, and insists that his priority is stability.

Now that he has achieved that, and exceeded expectations by being a mere 3 points behind the playoff spots (damn you, Reading), people forget about that little speech of his and demand that he get sacked for failing to get us promoted in his first season? There's no such thing as instant success. Even an experienced manager needs one or two seasons to rebuild a squad to his liking and style of play. Allardyce might have gotten West Ham back up immediately, but he had to do that through playoffs (very narrow miss, but you would think an experienced manager like him would secure automatic promotion), but what other managers did it instantly? Holloway might have gotten Blackpool promoted through the playoffs in his first season, but he spent his last year at Blackpool stuck in the league despite making to playoffs (and as I mentioned earlier Dougie did half the job for him at Crystal Palace). And Holloway needed 2 or 3 years (2 and a half, to be exact) to get Queen Park Rangers promoted to the Championship. Mick McCarthy took at three and two seasons respectively to get Wolverhampton Wanderers and Sunderland promoted. And it's unlikely he'll get Ipswich promoted this season as well but I bet he will be given more time, at least another season. MacKay didn't get Watford promoted, and he took 2 seasons to get Cardiff promoted. Rednapp? The less said, the better. If he gets QPR promoted through playoffs, good for him, but you would think someone of his experience and caliber would get promoted through automatic promotion.

Even experienced managers need time. They don't promise instant success. It's unfair to demand that Bowyer should be sacked because he failed to get us promoted in one season (and that wasn't even his goal in the first place, which could explain his negative tactics and trying to draw rather than risk winning), and claim that an experienced manager will take this team up immediately. Even if we do get an experienced manager, he will need time to reach his goal. And if we're giving him time, then why can't we do the same for Bowyer, who has surpassed expectations this season?

Tell me honestly, did anyone predict that we would be this close to the playoffs at the beginning of this season? Seriously? After last season's near relegation, I thought people were claiming (perhaps not on brfcs, but on Ewood Park's Finest Reloaded) that they will be relieved if we make it to top midtable. And not only did we achieve that we're within 3 points of 6th.

I can understand the frustration from narrowly missing out on the playoffs, but I don't think that justifies sacking Bowyer. Perhaps, next season when he knows he has achieved stability and won't get relegated, he might employ more aggressive, positive tactics. In fact, he's sort of doing that now, barring the 0-0 draw with Yeovil, we scored what, 24 goals in 10 games?

Well that's 10 minutes I will never get back .

[Parsonblue]

I would agree Black Burn, that in many ways we have overachieved this season. After three seasons of continually fighting relegation it was imperative to achieve some sort of stability this season. I believe that Bowyer has achieved that. In many ways Bowyer's is a long term project of getting rid of high earners and bringing in younger players on lower wages. That doesn't happen overnight and there is still work to be done in that regard. However, we look better on the field at the moment - not perfect and still work to be done - but certainly better than we were at the start of the season. With one or two prudent additions in the summer we ought to be able to make a sustained attempt at the play-off places next season. Whilst I agree not everyone is happy, I must admit that I feel enthused again about the way in which things are going on the field.

[Glosrover]

...................

Tell me honestly, did anyone predict that we would be this close to the playoffs at the beginning of this season? Seriously? After last season's near relegation, I thought people were claiming (perhaps not on brfcs, but on Ewood Park's Finest Reloaded) that they will be relieved if we make it to top midtable. And not only did we achieve that we're within 3 points of 6th.

I can understand the frustration from narrowly missing out on the playoffs, but I don't think that justifies sacking Bowyer. Perhaps, next season when he knows he has achieved stability and won't get relegated, he might employ more aggressive, positive tactics. In fact, he's sort of doing that now, barring the 0-0 draw with Yeovil, we scored what, 24 goals in 10 games?

An outbreak of common sense! a good post and a decent perspective on where we are.

this false god of the play offs isnt any sort of acheivement at all though, its a loser's ticket to a lottery. Nothing to-date this season indicates that Rovers have the consistency, mentality or even the ability to get through a 2 legged semi, and then deal with a big-stage final. Even when Rovers went up via the play-offs last time, thanks to Kenny and Jack, there was no sense that the final would be a formality, and it was a close-run thing whether we won or lost on the day.

There is a warped logic that says maybe keeping the best players out of the shop-window, and under the radar will serve us better for next year.

With regards to Bowyer, a lot depends upon his own ego. He doesnt come across as a particularly strong or media-savvy character, and there is no doubt that he's a bit exposed tactically, or hasnt the confidence to express his ideas for fear or failure. No suprise though, they arent really attributes required of the environment he came from relatively recently. Reserve coaches dont usually have much to play for, they have a mixed bag of players and little external exposure. His skill set seems to be picking a player, that fits his favourite formation, developing a team spirit and working within the limitations of his experience. He doesnt seem to be either pro-active, or reactive.

If he is to stay, and if the desire is there with the owners, there is perhaps a real role for a technical advisor - an experienced former manager who doesnt want the day to day hassle of the training, the communications, the admin etc, but can read a game, can react to changing formations and match circumstances and can deal with not being the top man. This would be quite unique in the leagues as only the Raos have been crazy enough to appoint a manager without any experience of management.

If Bowyer can let his ego allow a potentially more experienced man into the setup, then why not give it a crack.

(i'm sure Bryan Robson had Venables appointed alongside him for a while to help out).

There are probably a few about that might want to take the gig, just ideas - but maybe these types of people, but as a consultant advisor - Curbishley, Phelan, Gary Johnson, Peter Reid, (I'm trying desperately not to mention Warnock), Phil Neale, John Collins, Sanchez - intelligent, experienced football people (thereby justifying the exclusion of Warnock)

[OJRovers]

I was in the 'judge him until the end of the season' camp after the Bournmouth defeat.

We've got 18 points from the 10 games, and are unbeaten, 4th in the form table. So I say 'back him'.

We'd be happy with a start like that after the first 10 games of next season, and it should have been 20 points with the Sheff Wed game...

With Marshall and Evans fit again next season we'd be looking good to carry on this consistent form.

[LDRover]

Why haven't you read my reasoning? To anybody applying a modicum of logic and reason it's pretty obvious.

Because your reasoning implies that if the players in this league had been around 20 years ago they would have been plying their trade at a higher level than the players I mentioned.

I understand your logic but maybe the standard of the leagues these years is well overrated meaning that bog standard players (because that's what they are) can and do play at the higher level. I know where my money would be if the Rovers side of 1987 rocked up against the class of 2014 anyway.

[ABBEY]

I know where my money would be as well.

[Neal]

http://www.brfcs.com/mb/index.php/topic/30287-is-bowyer-right-to-have-a-go-at-fans/?p=1505659

http://www.brfcs.com/mb/index.php/topic/30287-is-bowyer-right-to-have-a-go-at-fans/?p=1505690

http://www.brfcs.com/mb/index.php/topic/30287-is-bowyer-right-to-have-a-go-at-fans/?p=1505665

My God, you've changed your tune over the course of a few days.

Fair is something you need to look up in the dictionary. You are so scathing of everything and anything it's blinding. And just like that you change your mind about him. Bizarre!

Bowyer needs to sort things out when we go in front. Maybe he won't ever learn that but he has got us in with a chance which is more than I hoped for at the start of the season.

Still stand by what I've said but and I do still think he should step down if he doesn't reach promotion. He still is a moron for how reacted after Yeovil but and yes, that was the final straw for me... However, If he does get in the playoffs then that's fair enough, he'll have earned the right to be cut some slack.

[DE.]

Look at the other teams with "experienced" managers, and please tell me who got promoted.

Holloway got Crystal Palace promoted only because Dougie Freedman (a relatively inexperienced manager) did half of the job when he was there. Mick McCarthy hasn't gotten Ipswich promoted yet, or Harry Rednapp with Queen Park Rangers and Billy Davies got sacked by Notthingham Forest after a 5-0 defeat.

Of course, I won't claim that we won't get promoted even if we get an experienced manager, as Baz says our chances will increase if we get one. However, what's the point of destabilizing the team, kicking out a young rookie manager who has done a relatively good job (well, people can disagree with me on this) and resetting a team that he had so painstakingly built? You can claim IF we had McCarthy, we would have gotten promoted, IF we had Rednapp, we would have gotten promoted, IF we had Holloway we would get promoted.

I could point out IF we had no injuries we might have gotten promoted, IF we had Conwway earlier in the season we might have gotten promoted, IF the players listened to Bowyer and played out the game against Sheffield Wednesday instead of trying to score a 4th goal we might be closer to the playoffs than now. But we'll never know.

At the end of the day, this is all ifs, buts, and speculation. The only thing I know for sure is that bringing a new manager would mean that he needs more time to build his own team, which will reset everything, and that will cost money. And he will need time for all that. Expecting instant success the first season is ridiculous. The still exists the risk - if the guy fails, are you going to call for his head and want him out again (McCarthy out this time? Holloway out this time?)?

Anyway, Bowyer's aim was never promotion, so to see us actually fighting for a playoffs spot this late in the season is a bonus. Do any of you remember what Bowyer said in the beginning of the season? He only wanted stability, to cut costs, to rebuild the team. He dismissed any talks of promotion, saying that he needs at least 2 seasons to accomplish that, and insists that his priority is stability.

Now that he has achieved that, and exceeded expectations by being a mere 3 points behind the playoff spots (damn you, Reading), people forget about that little speech of his and demand that he get sacked for failing to get us promoted in his first season? There's no such thing as instant success. Even an experienced manager needs one or two seasons to rebuild a squad to his liking and style of play. Allardyce might have gotten West Ham back up immediately, but he had to do that through playoffs (very narrow miss, but you would think an experienced manager like him would secure automatic promotion), but what other managers did it instantly? Holloway might have gotten Blackpool promoted through the playoffs in his first season, but he spent his last year at Blackpool stuck in the league despite making to playoffs (and as I mentioned earlier Dougie did half the job for him at Crystal Palace). And Holloway needed 2 or 3 years (2 and a half, to be exact) to get Queen Park Rangers promoted to the Championship. Mick McCarthy took at three and two seasons respectively to get Wolverhampton Wanderers and Sunderland promoted. And it's unlikely he'll get Ipswich promoted this season as well but I bet he will be given more time, at least another season. MacKay didn't get Watford promoted, and he took 2 seasons to get Cardiff promoted. Rednapp? The less said, the better. If he gets QPR promoted through playoffs, good for him, but you would think someone of his experience and caliber would get promoted through automatic promotion.

Even experienced managers need time. They don't promise instant success. It's unfair to demand that Bowyer should be sacked because he failed to get us promoted in one season (and that wasn't even his goal in the first place, which could explain his negative tactics and trying to draw rather than risk winning), and claim that an experienced manager will take this team up immediately. Even if we do get an experienced manager, he will need time to reach his goal. And if we're giving him time, then why can't we do the same for Bowyer, who has surpassed expectations this season?

Tell me honestly, did anyone predict that we would be this close to the playoffs at the beginning of this season? Seriously? After last season's near relegation, I thought people were claiming (perhaps not on brfcs, but on Ewood Park's Finest Reloaded) that they will be relieved if we make it to top midtable. And not only did we achieve that we're within 3 points of 6th.

I can understand the frustration from narrowly missing out on the playoffs, but I don't think that justifies sacking Bowyer. Perhaps, next season when he knows he has achieved stability and won't get relegated, he might employ more aggressive, positive tactics. In fact, he's sort of doing that now, barring the 0-0 draw with Yeovil, we scored what, 24 goals in 10 games?

Great post. I'm hoping you'll get a decent argument back as opposed to the usual dismissive one-liners, but won't hold my breath on that.

[Bucksrover]

Well that's 10 minutes I will never get back .

Can't remember that I have ever agreed with one of your posts but some of them do make me laugh!

[Tom]

I was in the 'judge him until the end of the season' camp after the Bournmouth defeat.

We've got 18 points from the 10 games, and are unbeaten, 4th in the form table. So I say 'back him'.

We'd be happy with a start like that after the first 10 games of next season, and it should have been 20 points with the Sheff Wed game...

With Marshall and Evans fit again next season we'd be looking good to carry on this consistent form.

Fair points apart from the last one, for me nothing we have seen so far indicates Evans will be fit again, he's showing the signs of another Grella