[Archived] Back Or Sack?

[Amo]

Fair points apart from the last one, for me nothing we have seen so far indicates Evans will be fit again, he's showing the signs of another Grella

He's already played half as many games as Grella did in four years.

[Tom]

Well maybe not to that extent but he seems destined to be hampered by injuries

[Blandy]

Great post. I'm hoping you'll get a decent argument back as opposed to the usual dismissive one-liners, but won't hold my breath on that.

Agree good post by Black Burn, but I disagree that Bowyers aim was never promotion he may have been portraying that to the fans but I can't imagine that when he met with Venkys last summer the aim by both parties was stability and a re-building season. I think whether he stays or goes all boils down to what was promised by Bowyer when he got the job, next season is last chance saloon for Venkys with regards to parachute money do they stick or twist - who knows!

[Black Burn]

Agree good post by Black Burn, but I disagree that Bowyers aim was never promotion he may have been portraying that to the fans but I can't imagine that when he met with Venkys last summer the aim by both parties was stability and a re-building season. I think whether he stays or goes all boils down to what was promised by Bowyer when he got the job, next season is last chance saloon for Venkys with regards to parachute money do they stick or twist - who knows!

I've been searching for that interview but I can't find it. I think it was after the 3-0 loss to Brighton or something, but I can't remember.

If memory serves me, Bowyer said something along the lines of "it's a young team, they're taking time to gel, it's a work in progress and we'll need at least another season before we can talk about promotion." He did say he'll try to mount a push for a top-six challenge, but I also recall him saying somewhere that he'll need at least 2 seasons to challenge for promotion. I just can't find that quote anywhere.

[ABBEY]

Thanks mrs Bowyer

[Black Burn]

Thanks mrs Bowyer

No thank you, Mr. Shawn Trencher. I thought you wouldn't read my posts after wasting 10 minutes of your life earlier. Must apologize for that.

By the way, I'm not saying Bowyer will get us promoted. Perhaps experience will be the difference, but I prefer stability for now. Changing managers, even for an experienced one, doesn't guarantee success and will only set us back another season as the guy tries to rebuild the team and change the playing style.

As for people worried about financial costs, from what I've heard, the club is taking care of it. Shaw and Bowyer have claimed that they worked out a cost-cutting plan to deal with the transfer embargo and Financial Fair Play Rules should it ever come down to that, and though I have no idea to what extent of that claim we should believe, I don't think it's doom and end of the club if we don't get promoted this season or next. I could be wrong, of course. I'm always a naïve guy, after all.

[Majiball]

Great post. I'm hoping you'll get a decent argument back as opposed to the usual dismissive one-liners, but won't hold my breath on that.

Steve Maclaren & Uwe Rosler both have come in this year and made the play-offs from beneath us. One experienced, one not, but both clearly have ability.

Clearly it can go both ways.

That's half the problem on here you think it's an argument when in reality it's a debate.

[DE.]

Agree good post by Black Burn, but I disagree that Bowyers aim was never promotion he may have been portraying that to the fans but I can't imagine that when he met with Venkys last summer the aim by both parties was stability and a re-building season. I think whether he stays or goes all boils down to what was promised by Bowyer when he got the job, next season is last chance saloon for Venkys with regards to parachute money do they stick or twist - who knows!

I imagine Bowyer's aim was the playoffs. Not sure what he's said to the media to be fair but I don't remember him saying anything about us getting promoted this season.

Steve Maclaren & Uwe Rosler both have come in this year and made the play-offs from beneath us. One experienced, one not, but both clearly have ability.

Clearly it can go both ways.

That's half the problem on here you think it's an argument when in reality it's a debate.

Derby have been in this division for a while and slowly built a stable and steady team. Clough didn't quite have it in him to get them to where they needed to be, no question McClaren has come in and done a very good job there. Wigan were hampered massively by the dunce of a manager that was Owen Coyle - they still have a very strong team and have experienced nowhere near the type of upheaval and unrest that we have had to endure over the past few years. They've got a solid base beneath them, which we still don't have despite the departure of Kean and Singh.

Don't focus too much on wordings like argument and debate, they're essentially the same thing. When you're debating with somebody you put across an argument, it doesn't always mean you're literally arguing in a hostile fashion.

[Majiball]

I imagine Bowyer's aim was the playoffs. Not sure what he's said to the media to be fair but I don't remember him saying anything about us getting promoted this season.

Derby have been in this division for a while and slowly built a stable and steady team. Clough didn't quite have it in him to get them to where they needed to be, no question McClaren has come in and done a very good job there. Wigan were hampered massively by the dunce of a manager that was Owen Coyle - they still have a very strong team and have experienced nowhere near the type of upheaval and unrest that we have had to endure over the past few years. They've got a solid base beneath them, which we still don't have despite the departure of Kean and Singh.

Don't focus too much on wordings like argument and debate, they're essentially the same thing. When you're debating with somebody you put across an argument, it doesn't always mean you're literally arguing in a hostile fashion.

if that's the way your going down then you cannot compare us to any of the other teams in the whole of football unless they have experienced the exact same journey as us, with the exact same people. So that's the end of the debate as you have killed your own argument. If I cannot use Derby and Wigan, then you cannot use Leicester etc.

Surely the right words are everything on a MB (they are all we have on here), they are not the same thing as you acknowledge. I'll wager you've never debated in your life, yes you build an argument, but you respond or construct a response.

[den]

I imagine Bowyer's aim was the playoffs. Not sure what he's said to the media to be fair but I don't remember him saying anything about us getting promoted this season.

That's just ridiculous DE. You think his aim was to get to the playoffs and lose? The finances dictate that we needed promotion ASAP. Bowyer has got lucky in being allowed 19 players of his own choice in one year, - the only reason why any manager needs time.

[DE.]

if that's the way your going down then you cannot compare us to any of the other teams in the whole of football unless they have experienced the exact same journey as us, with the exact same people. So that's the end of the debate as you have killed your own argument. If I cannot use Derby and Wigan, then you cannot use Leicester etc.

Surely the right words are everything on a MB (they are all we have on here), they are not the same thing as you acknowledge. I'll wager you've never debated in your life, yes you build an argument, but you respond or construct a response.

Toys well and truly out of the pram

That's just ridiculous DE. You think his aim was to get to the playoffs and lose? The finances dictate that we needed promotion ASAP. Bowyer has got lucky in being allowed 19 players of his own choice in one year, - the only reason why any manager needs time.

Where did I say he wanted to get to the playoffs and lose? I don't think Bowyer was targeting automatic promotion (top 2), but rather a playoff finish. If we failed to get promoted via that route I don't think Gary would see it as a failure, and he'd be right not to as we only just avoided relegation last season and have spent this season rebuilding the team. I expected mid table this season so if we finished in the top 6 I'd be happy regardless of the overall outcome and confident we could push on next season. I can't speak of finances because, much like yourself I'm sure, I don't know what shape we're in financially or whether Venky's are planning to continue funding us or not.

[Black Burn]

if that's the way your going down then you cannot compare us to any of the other teams in the whole of football unless they have experienced the exact same journey as us, with the exact same people. So that's the end of the debate as you have killed your own argument. If I cannot use Derby and Wigan, then you cannot use Leicester etc.

Surely the right words are everything on a MB (they are all we have on here), they are not the same thing as you acknowledge. I'll wager you've never debated in your life, yes you build an argument, but you respond or construct a response.

Just going to point out that everyone is going to interpret words and use them differently. To some, an argument might be considered a positive thing (I know, I'm in academia), to others it might be a negative thing. It depends on how you use them. No two people are going to interpret the same word exactly the same. The general meaning might be there, but semantics demand that people will use them differently.

In this context, I don't think DE means anything bad by argument, I think he just means sharing differences in opinion. Which I assume essentially means debate, hence his statement that they are essentially both the same thing.

If you have a problem with DE using the word argument instead of debate, you've got to define what you mean and explain your context because you seem to be interpreting the word differently from either me or him.

[Majiball]

Toys well and truly out of the pram

You can read the below. Everyone is well aware how I respond when that happens. What's wrong DE cannot 'argue' my points, so you have to resort to silly one liners? Was it not you who said today in response to someone else's post that you hoped they would get a witty one liner? Or do your rules only apply to others and not yourself?

Just going to point out that everyone is going to interpret words and use them differently. To some, an argument might be considered a positive thing (I know, I'm in academia), to others it might be a negative thing. It depends on how you use them. No two people are going to interpret the same word exactly the same. The general meaning might be there, but semantics demand that people will use them differently.

In this context, I don't think DE means anything bad by argument, I think he just means sharing differences in opinion. Which I assume essentially means debate, hence his statement that they are essentially both the same thing.

If you have a problem with DE using the word argument instead of debate, you've got to define what you mean and explain your context because you seem to be interpreting the word differently from either me or him.

But we were discussing English grammar and I did define the context and the interpretation. At no stage did I say it was bad or good, you've created those issues not me. Think of it as missing the point. PS i would like to add that unless you are DE you cannot know how he interprets that word or how he means it. Even if you are right at this moment it is an assumption on your part or conjecture.

Congratulations on working in Academia, it take it you work in a social science?

[den]

Where did I say he wanted to get to the playoffs and lose? I don't think Bowyer was targeting automatic promotion (top 2), but rather a playoff finish. If we failed to get promoted via that route I don't think Gary would see it as a failure, and he'd be right not to as we only just avoided relegation last season and have spent this season rebuilding the team. I expected mid table this season so if we finished in the top 6 I'd be happy regardless of the overall outcome and confident we could push on next season. I can't speak of finances because, much like yourself I'm sure, I don't know what shape we're in financially or whether Venky's are planning to continue funding us or not.

"I don't know what shape we're in financially or whether Venky's are planning to continue funding us or not" ....Is a bit of a contradiction there DE. If we don't know anything about the finances, there can't be any evidence that they are funding us?

The pressure to get us out of this league must be immense. Every season in this league, with anything like the squad size we have is costing a huge amount of money. It can't possibly go on like this unless it's going onto the debt. There are plenty of fans like yourself who are for building a team over time, but that always ignores the finances. That can't possibly be ignored because it's a time bomb ticking away.

[ABBEY]

I imagine Bowyer's aim was the playoffs. Not sure what he's said to the media to be fair but I don't remember him saying anything about us getting promoted this season.

Derby have been in this division for a while and slowly built a stable and steady team. Clough didn't quite have it in him to get them to where they needed to be, no question McClaren has come in and done a very good job there. Wigan were hampered massively by the dunce of a manager that was Owen Coyle - they still have a very strong team and have experienced nowhere near the type of upheaval and unrest that we have had to endure over the past few years. They've got a solid base beneath them, which we still don't have despite the departure of Kean and Singh.

Don't focus too much on wordings like argument and debate, they're essentially the same thing. When you're debating with somebody you put across an argument, it doesn't always mean you're literally arguing in a hostile fashion.

Did you go to the Yeovil game because it was clear bowyer didn't give a chickens lip about reaching the playoffs ?

[DE.]

"I don't know what shape we're in financially or whether Venky's are planning to continue funding us or not" ....Is a bit of a contradiction there DE. If we don't know anything about the finances, there can't be any evidence that they are funding us?

The pressure to get us out of this league must be immense. Every season in this league, with anything like the squad size we have is costing a huge amount of money. It can't possibly go on like this unless it's going onto the debt. There are plenty of fans like yourself who are for building a team over time, but that always ignores the finances. That can't possibly be ignored because it's a time bomb ticking away.

I think we're starting to tread over old ground here again den.

We can't really speak about finances so let's just take it from the perspective of next season - the aim should be promotion regardless of any other external issues. Situation is that Venky's are still the owners of the club.

Bowyer has done enough this season to convince me he could push us into contention for promotion next season. There have been some really bad results and the performances for the most part haven't been pretty. Having been to a fair few matches lately and a little earlier in the season I can certainly testify to that. Gary also struggles with substitutions, something he will need to address next season. That being said I believe he's our best shot of going up, because if Venky's are given the chance to hire again I think we'll get somebody worse. That aside the harmony of the squad will be disrupted, we'll have to pay out more money for a new manager & staff and it's possible a lot of Bowyer's signings will be sold/released and the new man allowed to bring in another group of players costing money and time to bed in. I'd suggest there's an argument to retaining Bowyer which has a lot of merits, Black Burn did an excellent job of summarising a little further up.

Am I to understand that your view is that we could do better and therefore we should sack Bowyer and roll the dice again? I assume you don't think Bowyer is the man to get us up and think Venky's would employ somebody better, but if not then I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Did you go to the Yeovil game because it was clear bowyer didn't give a chickens lip about reaching the playoffs ?

Yeah, I agree that was a bad performance. I was also at the QPR game and thought we were excellent that day. I notice that match hasn't been mentioned so much recently, though.

[ABBEY]

QPR were a very poor side that day to be honest.

[DE.]

You can only beat what's in front of you Abbs. Maybe they were poor because we played so well? I was very impressed. It made the next two results that much more disappointing though, as has been the case too many times this season.

[Jimmy612]

Yeah, I agree that was a bad performance. I was also at the QPR game and thought we were excellent that day. I notice that match hasn't been mentioned so much recently, though.

Enjoyed the whole of your post DE but i couldn't be bothered keeping the whole thing as a quote.

Agree with you and Abbey, we were completely crap but given our decent form in recent weeks, and considering that we have been scoring goals; is there a chance that the players just had an off day?

I was there too and the only player that seemed capable of taking a decent first touch was Kilgallon. The rest couldn't trap a wet sandbag between them. The passing was diabolical and our two strikers both had very poor games. The ever reliable and extremely impressive Conway had his worst game in Rovers colours, Cairney kept having to turn around because there were very few runs ahead of him, and Willamson and Evans were generally lacking.

Whilst it is ultimately the manager that has to shoulder responsibility, as a fan base sometimes I think we should cast an eye over the performance of the players first rather than go straight for the jugular and criticise GB without thought. My only criticism of GB is that I thought Dunn would have come on at half time; that said, I'm not sure who I would have taken off at that point, a midfielder or Rhodes

[Tom]

It seems from twitter that a lot of the people fully happy with the manager are people that can't attend.

I only attend home games and I'm somewhere in the middle, a lot of our most frustrating performances have been at home whilst better ones have been away so that's probably colouring my view.

If you can't go to any games we look like we are doing ok and you don't have to deal with the realities and frustrations of a lot of games.

Of course Plenty of people who go religiously are fully happy and some unhappy it's just an observation.

[West Yorks Rover]

So the manager was unable to get the players up for the 2nd half, even with the other results going in our favour.

[DE.]

Enjoyed the whole of your post DE but i couldn't be bothered keeping the whole thing as a quote.

Agree with you and Abbey, we were completely crap but given our decent form in recent weeks, and considering that we have been scoring goals; is there a chance that the players just had an off day?

I was there too and the only player that seemed capable of taking a decent first touch was Kilgallon. The rest couldn't trap a wet sandbag between them. The passing was diabolical and our two strikers both had very poor games. The ever reliable and extremely impressive Conway had his worst game in Rovers colours, Cairney kept having to turn around because there were very few runs ahead of him, and Willamson and Evans were generally lacking.

Whilst it is ultimately the manager that has to shoulder responsibility, as a fan base sometimes I think we should cast an eye over the performance of the players first rather than go straight for the jugular and criticise GB without thought. My only criticism of GB is that I thought Dunn would have come on at half time; that said, I'm not sure who I would have taken off at that point, a midfielder or Rhodes

There did seem to be a lot of off performances, unfortunately they all seemed to come at once. I was actually very disappointed with Evans and at times thought Cairney wasn't brave enough, though you are right in saying there was often very little on in front of him. It's one of the most frustrating matches I've been to. You could see the idea was there but the players just couldn't get started in either half. I'm not sure whether it was lack of motivation or if the disjointedness of the first half threw the team entirely and left them too anxious to play comfortably.

What are we on now, an 11 game unbeaten run? I know a lot of them have been draws but the fact we aren't losing is a very good sign. If GB can improve a couple of things in the summer (right back for a start) then some of this season's draws could become wins and propel us further up the table. Of course at this point I'm assuming we'll have a calm summer and knowing Venky's it'll be anything but that

[Jimmy612]

So the manager was unable to get the players up for the 2nd half, even with the other results going in our favour.

Certainly one of my concerns about Bowyers. He doesn't seem to be an inspirational manager.

However, it certainly says a lot about our players if they can't motivate themselves having seen those results. And I don't think it was down to a lack of effort on Friday; we certainly huffed and puffed but as I mentioned above, we couldn't trap a wet sandbag or pass 10 feet to their own players.

[Tom]

I have that concern as well Jimmy he may be much better in the dressing room but comes across like he has the charisma of a flannel

His job is to win games, I feel if he made the right changes we would have won that game.

I do think we will stick with him so our only hope is he improves drastically on his weak points, it's not out of the question

[ABBEY]

There did seem to be a lot of off performances, unfortunately they all seemed to come at once. I was actually very disappointed with Evans and at times thought Cairney wasn't brave enough, though you are right in saying there was often very little on in front of him. It's one of the most frustrating matches I've been to. You could see the idea was there but the players just couldn't get started in either half. I'm not sure whether it was lack of motivation or if the disjointedness of the first half threw the team entirely and left them too anxious to play comfortably.

What are we on now, an 11 game unbeaten run? I know a lot of them have been draws but the fact we aren't losing is a very good sign. If GB can improve a couple of things in the summer (right back for a start) then some of this season's draws could become wins and propel us further up the table. Of course at this point I'm assuming we'll have a calm summer and knowing Venky's it'll be anything but that

And the unbeaten 11 run again masks the situation . Bowyers unbeaten brainwashing .