[Archived] Back Or Sack?

[Kamy100]

I think what Den is saying is that he has got rid of a number of players and then been allowed to use the vast majority of the freed up cash to bring in other players, it is not the case that he has had to get rid of a large number of players and then not been allowed to replace them therefore no big budget cuts.

[joey_big_nose]

In a reply to you on the brum thread

http://www.brfcs.com/mb/index.php/topic/30280-brum-away/page-27#entry1507868

You will note that I said it's a silly game arguing wage bills, but the point remains that Bowyer hasn't had any of the interference that Berg or Appleton had, only had to sell one player that he would have played and was given possibly the second highest amount of cash to invest, out of the whole league. He decided to spend that outlay on 19 different players,

Thanks for clarifying Den. Still totally mystofied as who are the 19 players? I can only think of about ten bowyer has brought in. And if we are counting players like songoo etc. They are going to be on a huge amount less than 8k.

[Amo]

Alan Judge
Simon Eastwood
Chris Taylor
DJ Campbell - presigned under Appleton
Matthew Kilgallon
Alex Marrow
Tommy Spurr
Tom Cairney
Corry Evans
Yann Songo'o
Aaron Tumwa
Ben Marshall
Rudy Gestede
Connor Mahoney
Craig Conway
Todd Kane (loan)
Bryan Dabo (loan)
Luke Varney (loan)
Michael Keane (loan)
Liam Feeney (loan)

[DE.]

In a reply to you on the brum thread

http://www.brfcs.com/mb/index.php/topic/30280-brum-away/page-27#entry1507868

You will note that I said it's a silly game arguing wage bills, but the point remains that Bowyer hasn't had any of the interference that Berg or Appleton had, only had to sell one player that he would have played and was given possibly the second highest amount of cash to invest, out of the whole league. He decided to spend that outlay on 19 different players,

If it's such a silly game why do you keep mentioning the £16M figure? Which for the record has to be considered wildly inaccurate. I imagine the reason I forgot your explanation was because it made no sense to me. No way all of the players on Toppers list are on £8K, a fair portion will be on less (and a couple marginally higher, I'd suggest). I doubt some of those players are breaking much beyond the £1k barrier. The loan signings (5 of them) have been here between 3 to a maximum of 12 months so applying the 2 year £8k pw average to them as well is going to give a grossly disproportionate figure to the true cost.

Whilst Bowyer has been given a portion of the money "freed up" from players released/sold, he's still operated on a negative transfer budget and a reduced wage bill. We've released/sold/loaned out 33 players this season - surely we had no choice but to bring in a fair amount of players as replacements, especially considering the squad had not been equipped to challenge in this division last season? 5 of the players on the dreaded list of 19 are actually loans so Bowyer has actually brought in 14 permanent signings, most of which have improved the squad. It still leaves us nearly 20 players lighter than we were last season with a better squad for the division and a lower wage bill.

The wage bill is of course still too high, but if challenging for the playoffs was the minimum requirement how could we possibly have achieved that without bringing in the players we have done? I don't think Henrique and Edinho Jr were going to lead us to promotion...

[OJRovers]

Its one thing having the budget, but another spending it wisely.

I think overall we are miles better than we were last season and credit to Bowyer for that. He's not blown the money on 35 year old journeymen, we've got some good young players who will only get better with experience.

[JBiz]

This is probably moot and already mentioned but wouldn't Pedersen, Gomes and Danny Murphys wage packets combined be more than the first team squad for this season? (minus Robbo)

Edit- realise we still have Dixon and Best on big wages but they've hardly been involved this season. I guess the point is that we've replaced expensive dross with lots of cheaper young talent... All with resale!!

[donnermeat]

I would imagine the players who were paid off had their contracts paid in full or the vast majority of it anyway, so I wouldn't view that as clawing much back as it's money that was due to be paid to them anyway throughout the season.

[Willie Eckerslike]

Not the Yeovil match again! The only match in the last 11 when we haven't scored at least 2 is once again used as the stick to beat Bowyer. Maybe it was just a bad performance against a team fighting for their lives. It happens, just as it happened to Wigan at the weekend.

Or maybe it was the only match (that we are aware of) where the manager has instructed the team to protect the one point and not go for three. Followed by a little dig at the fans afterwards.

Those are the reasons that match stick out for me, especially the first point.

[RibbleValleyRover]

None of us are going to know exactly what the players are on at the club, even when sometimes you see figures leaked I would imagine that is a lot of guesswork or a conservative estimate at best.

If I were to guess I would say that the wage budget is lower with some of the outgoings but not considerably lower. Rovers have brought in a fair few players from Premier League clubs and even if they are fringe players their wages are most likely higher than those contemporaries in the Championship. Rovers might have also agreed to pay them slightly more to get them to drop down a division. I think it would be fair to say Rovers have one of the biggest wage budgets in the division even with outgoings.

Bowyer's future will depend on what he told them with his direct line to Desai and what his agreed target for this season was. If he promised them promotion (I suspect this wasn't the case going off some of his comments) then he could be in some trouble. If he was after a top 10 finish then he may be safe another season.

I am going to praise Venky's for one thing (i'll wash my mouth out with soap later) and that is they have him on a 12 month rolling contract. So if they do decide to go in another direction or another managerial opportunity comes along at the end of the season then it wouldn't cost much to dispense with his services. It's something they really should have done 4 or 5 managers back but I am glad it's there now.

My view hasn't changed on Bowyer, if anything I think I may have overestimated the overall quality of this league and underestimated the level of competition.

I think he is a good man motivator but tactically he is very suspect, something which would had been found out more in a better quality league. I think he tends to be more reactive than proactive with his team selections and tactics. Reactive is fine when you can come up with a tactical solution to solve that problem but countless times this season he has either reacted too slow in game or made the wrong decision. This could maybe improve as he gets more experience but I have seen plenty of managers not improve tactically with experience when in theory they should. I also don't like this 'pally' relationship he has with the players. Saw it under several of our managerial flops and would rather see a more professional 'firm but fair' sort of mentality.

At the end of the day all we can do it sit back and see what Venky's plan to do next season. We all know that the financial burden is going to be larger next season with the financial losses and a decline in the parachute payments. The ultimate fate of Rovers is in their hands.

[DE.]

The below players are the ones most likely contributing massively to our wage bill problem:

Robbo

Hanley

Lowe

Dunn

DJ Campbell

Rhodes
Etuhu
Best
Orr
Rochina
Goodwillie

I'd estimate (cautiously) that these players are costing us nearly £1M per month in wages. Keep in mind Rhodes is supposed to be on at least £35k pw if not £40k pw and Leon Best boasted at one point that he was the highest paid player at the club so he's at least on those figures too. Hanley and Lowe are probably on the lower end of the scale but considering they were a big part of our team in the prem it seems likely they're both on at least £15k pw. The rest will be between £20k/£30k pw.

None of these players were signed by Bowyer and he can't get rid of them because nobody is going to pay these players the type of wages we're paying them. That's why we can only shift the likes of Campbell, Orr, Best, Rochina and Goodwillie on loan where it's likely only a portion of their wages are actually being paid for. Probably a small portion at that - how much of £40k pw could Sheff Weds really afford for Leon Best?

The reason our wage bill is so high relative to our position in the table is not due to Bowyer inflating the wage bill with his players, and it certainly doesn't mean we're underachieving. The fact is we have been lumbered with a load of absolute tripe on extortionate wages which has absolutely destroyed any financial balance we may once have had. It's not hard to see why we're reportedly losing £2m per month when you look at the amount of players brought in by the previous regime on sickeningly huge contracts who have not benefited the team in the slightest.

And this is without considering the likes of Olsson, Murphy, Formica, MGP, Nuno Gomes, and the random portuguese nobodies who bloated the squad and stole a significant wage for most if not all of last season. Scott Dann was also likely on a pretty nice wage packet for half of this season before Palace took him on.

[USABlue]

Let, s not forget that had it not been for Bowyer we would have been in League One this season. I am more than irritated with some factors of Bowyers stewardship but taking everything into account I'say a B- and let's see how we are at Xmas next season.

[Baz]

This is probably moot and already mentioned but wouldn't Pedersen, Gomes and Danny Murphys wage packets combined be more than the first team squad for this season? (minus Robbo)

Edit- realise we still have Dixon and Best on big wages but they've hardly been involved this season. I guess the point is that we've replaced expensive dross with lots of cheaper young talent... All with resale!!

You think MGP, Murphy and Gomes left without settlements for the majority of their contracts?

[Baz]

The wage bill is of course still too high, but if challenging for the playoffs was the minimum requirement how could we possibly have achieved that without bringing in the players we have done?

Possibly instead of bringing in 19 players he could have brought in fewer, but top quality players in the spine of the team?

Souness' signings to get promoted last time we where in this league:

Hughes

Friedel

Berg

Short

Hignett

Berkovic

Mahon

Bent

Bjornbye

Marc Keller

Kaba Diawara

Apart from the last 2 (Diawara he got rid of pdq), thats a pretty impressive list. Total outlay 900k.

From http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/blackburn-rovers/transfers/verein_164_2000_default_default_alle_a_default.html

[Roverthechimp]

I have a masterplan - let's get Bowyer to give everyone a payrise. Logically that should improve our league position next season and that would secure at least a playoff position... Bring back murphy, givet and pedersen and we are gauranteed automatic promotion

[onlyonejackwalker]

Possibly instead of bringing in 19 players he could have brought in fewer, but top quality players in the spine of the team?

Souness' signings to get promoted last time we where in this league:

Hughes

Friedel

Berg

Short

Hignett

Berkovic

Mahon

Bent

Bjornbye

Marc Keller

Kaba Diawara

Apart from the last 2 (Diawara he got rid of pdq), thats a pretty impressive list. Total outlay 900k.

From http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/blackburn-rovers/transfers/verein_164_2000_default_default_alle_a_default.html

I enjoyed watching that team.

You are quite right. Seems to have been air brushed and glossed over how badly our goalkeeping situation was handled earlier this season. Costing how many points?...whilst crucially unsettling our defence for weeks. Basic, novice error from Bowyer, very, very hard to fathom. 19 players bought and yet we were stuck with a dodgy keeper in goal for 3 months.

I would have made that position an early priority, along with my back four and can only presume Bowyer mis-judged their abilities and felt he was adequately covered. He was wrong and it's been very costly waiting for Robbo. Play off costly it could be argued.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

Or maybe it was the only match (that we are aware of) where the manager has instructed the team to protect the one point and not go for three. Followed by a little dig at the fans afterwards.

Those are the reasons that match stick out for me, especially the first point.

Can anyone actually find this quote from Robinson where he says the team were told to go for one point ? In the last ten minutes I can understand Bowyer for having a go at the team - as a large number weren't making the effort to get back into defence - if this is what he is accused of, then I agree with Bowyer. How would the fans have felt if we had scored in the 90th minute - but that was only the equaliser as we had conceded 5 minutes earlier.

[Stuart]

I just hope when he has finished his apprenticeship and learnt from all his many mistakes at Rovers, he doesn't jump ship when we are due a return on our investment.

[G Somerset Rover]

Baz - Bent was £2 million alone wasn't he?

Edit - ignore me I didn't see it was including sales.

[Willie Eckerslike]

Can anyone actually find this quote from Robinson where he says the team were told to go for one point ? In the last ten minutes I can understand Bowyer for having a go at the team - as a large number weren't making the effort to get back into defence - if this is what he is accused of, then I agree with Bowyer. How would the fans have felt if we had scored in the 90th minute - but that was only the equaliser as we had conceded 5 minutes earlier.

It was / still is available on rovers player I believe. Someone posted a transcript of it on one of the threads a couple of days ago

[AllRoverAsia]

It was / still is available on rovers player I believe. Someone posted a transcript of it on one of the threads a couple of days ago

The Robbo & Bowyer post Yeovil interviews are still available on Rovers Player.

[Paul]

Not the Yeovil match again! The only match in the last 11 when we haven't scored at least 2 is once again used as the stick to beat Bowyer. Maybe it was just a bad performance against a team fighting for their lives. It happens, just as it happened to Wigan at the weekend.

If I was a Yeovil fan and saw their performance described as "fighting for their lives" I would be a bit unhappy.

There was no fight, or anything else, in Yeovil that night.

[den]

If it's such a silly game why do you keep mentioning the £16M figure? Which for the record has to be considered wildly inaccurate. I imagine the reason I forgot your explanation was because it made no sense to me. No way all of the players on Toppers list are on £8K, a fair portion will be on less (and a couple marginally higher, I'd suggest). I doubt some of those players are breaking much beyond the £1k barrier. The loan signings (5 of them) have been here between 3 to a maximum of 12 months so applying the 2 year £8k pw average to them as well is going to give a grossly disproportionate figure to the true cost.

Whilst Bowyer has been given a portion of the money "freed up" from players released/sold, he's still operated on a negative transfer budget and a reduced wage bill. We've released/sold/loaned out 33 players this season - surely we had no choice but to bring in a fair amount of players as replacements, especially considering the squad had not been equipped to challenge in this division last season? 5 of the players on the dreaded list of 19 are actually loans so Bowyer has actually brought in 14 permanent signings, most of which have improved the squad. It still leaves us nearly 20 players lighter than we were last season with a better squad for the division and a lower wage bill.

The wage bill is of course still too high, but if challenging for the playoffs was the minimum requirement how could we possibly have achieved that without bringing in the players we have done? I don't think Henrique and Edinho Jr were going to lead us to promotion...

Who's arguing about the budget balance - not me. Why keep bringing it up? I'm saying that he's had a lot of money to spend.

It might be 16m, or it might not, but it is a lot of money for a club in our position - and much more than almost every other team in this league has spent. If he get's us up then fair do' she's done his job. If he doesn't then it's fair enough to look at his performance as a manager and in the transfer market. At present, for all that outlay, we're 8th in a very poor league.

You know, a lot of our fans wanted rid of Berg and Appleton because they argued that we had one of the best - some said "the" best squad in the league, and it was only the managers lack of ability that was holding us back. Many of those same fans are now arguing that bowyer had so much to do with the squad he's inherited, that he was given a tough situation to deal with. Well.......... How does that work then?

Come on guys, according to many we already had the best striker in the league and the best squad in the league when he took over. So why did we need another 19 players bringing in? What was the conversation between Mrs D and Bowyer last summer? " look Mrs D, I know we're around £70m+ in debt, but as a starter for rebuilding the squad I need another 19 players this season. it's going to take around 3 or 4 seasons though - are we OK financially 'til then"? Really? What kind of plan is that? Out of those 19 players he's brought into the club - and some of you say we needed that many - how many started the last game? 6, 7? Where were the other 12, 13 players that he brought in then?

[Mike E]

I think you're overthinking it tbh den. Football is never as simple as 'get this or that and it's problem solved'. We needed a complete overhaul of the squad and a manager with a plan. That's what we have and seems to be working. That's my only concern at present.

With regards to finances, I'm banking on promotion next season (rightly or wrongly) to get us onto a clean slate debt-wise and hopefully we can scrape through and try to keep building. I see no reason for me to worry about finances too much as it isn't something I can affect. However, I can show my support (or dislike) of a manager or player in attendance at matches. Without access to balance sheets (on top of being a bit dim with accounts stuff anyway) I've no real opinion to share other than 'hope it gets better'.

In terms of players at the Charlton game, there were 11 of Bowyers signings involved (out of 19) and that excludes regular starter Tommy Spurr and exciting winger Ben Marshall. 13 out of 19 signings regularly appearing in the team or on the bench ain't bad for a first season with a chequebook. Esp' given the vast improvement shown with those players gelling in such a short space of time.

[ABBEY]

Mike mike mike lad ... Promotion ain't happening whilst the feathered owd hag is here. .not this year not next .

[den]

I think you're overthinking it tbh den. Football is never as simple as 'get this or that and it's problem solved'. We needed a complete overhaul of the squad and a manager with a plan. That's what we have and seems to be working. That's my only concern at present.

With regards to finances, I'm banking on promotion next season (rightly or wrongly) to get us onto a clean slate debt-wise and hopefully we can scrape through and try to keep building. I see no reason for me to worry about finances too much as it isn't something I can affect. However, I can show my support (or dislike) of a manager or player in attendance at matches. Without access to balance sheets (on top of being a bit dim with accounts stuff anyway) I've no real opinion to share other than 'hope it gets better'.

In terms of players at the Charlton game, there were 11 of Bowyers signings involved (out of 19) and that excludes regular starter Tommy Spurr and exciting winger Ben Marshall. 13 out of 19 signings regularly appearing in the team or on the bench ain't bad for a first season with a chequebook. Esp' given the vast improvement shown with those players gelling in such a short space of time.

Fair enough Mike. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, I'm just trying to put forward a different viewpoint. The bottom line to all this is the finances though. Seems to me, the one thing that the supporters of this slowly, slowly approach never comment on is the finances.