[Archived] Second Striker Syndrome

[Stuart]

Not, it's not the latest PS4 military flight sim, it's a question about where our second goalscorer is, and where those goals are coming from.

Everyone has an opinion on Jordan Rhodes and, whether or not you think he contributes enough, his goal record speaks for itself. But although Rhodes is finishing plenty of his chances, there is a big gaping hole where a strike partner should be. For all of the talk of 4-4-2 being dead, it's important that someone else contributes in with their fair share of the goals, and this seems to be borne out by those teams above us in the league.

It's no coincidence that the top three teams have shared spoils when it comes to finding the back of the net, with 30+ between them:

Leicester: Nugent 17 - 16 Vardy

Burnley: Ings 20 - 19 Volkes

Derby: Bryson 15 - 15 Martin

Further down, and those teams who have only one real hitman have had more mixed results over the season, with the second striker only weighing in single (or barely out of single) figures, and only 20+ between them:

QPR: Austin 14 - 5 Morrison

Wigan: Powell 11 - 9 Gómez

Reading: Le Fondre 13 - 9 Pogrebnyak

Forest: Patterson 10 - 10 Reid

Brighton: Ulloa 12 - 6 Crofts/Lingard

Ipswich: McGoldrick 16 - 10 Murphy

From that list, it would seem that it would seem that Ipswich are the team out of sorts but could be excused for having lost McGoldrick since February with a cruciate ligament injury until the end of April. Likewise Andy Reid is out for a similar amount of time,at Forest, impacting their form.

Meanwhile, Rovers: Rhodes 20 - 4 Gestede

Although still more than everyone from 4th to 8th, it's clear that the lack of threat from an attack partner is having an impact.

So the question is, assuming Rhodes isn't sold to fill the gap left by parachute payments, and Bowyer is backed over the Summer, and the club doesn't go to the wall Pompey style, how does Bowyer address this next season? Do we have the player(s) at the club already to fill this void? If so, who?

Or do we need to go into the transfer market? (Assuming funding is somehow made available). Who do we bring in? Lewis Grabban (Bournemouth) has chipped in with 15 goals this season? Worth a punt? Or is there someone else?

The post script question is, is 4-4-2 really dead, or have reports of its demise been greatly exaggerated?

[K-Hod]

4-4-2 can (and examples above have shown it does) work with two very industrious central midfielders.

Interesting looking at the second highest goalscorers as well- look at Brighton- Lingard hasn't been there long, the same goes for Morrison at QPR, and Gestede with us....

[Tom]

Out of interest in the time since Getsede came in how many has Rhodes got?

It's probably quite even, it would be interesting to know how many games Rudy has played and how many it would result I'm over the season assuming the same strike rate

The best scenario is Rhodes and Rudy develop together as a partnership, Rudy can do the hard work and win the flick ons and Rhodes can be left to do what he does best when he learns how to play off him

[roversfan99]

I don't think that Rhodes plays best with another striker; that said I think that Gestede is a much better all round striker.

[somersetrover]

I like Rudy and he's a real handful in the air and gives the team something different but I think that we could do with another natural goal scorer which despite Rudy's good start in January his record doesn't suggest he is, this would also lessen the burden on Rhodes. I'd think some like Billy McKay at ICT would be a good signing he'd be cheapish, on relatively low wages, he works tremendously hard off the ball and he scores plenty of goals. I certainly don't think that Varney is the answer. Another one to look at is Ishmael Miller who is on loan at Yeovil, is out of contract with Forest at the end of the season and he's got 10 goals in 17 games for a struggling team this season. My brother in-law who is a Yeovil season ticket holder, raves about him and says that he bullies most defences.

Not, it's not the latest PS4 military flight sim, it's a question about where our second goalscorer is, and where those goals are coming from.

Everyone has an opinion on Jordan Rhodes and, whether or not you think he contributes enough, his goal record speaks for itself. But although Rhodes is finishing plenty of his chances, there is a big gaping hole where a strike partner should be. For all of the talk of 4-4-2 being dead, it's important that someone else contributes in with their fair share of the goals, and this seems to be borne out by those teams above us in the league.

It's no coincidence that the top three teams have shared spoils when it comes to finding the back of the net, with 30+ between them:

Leicester: Nugent 17 - 16 Vardy
Burnley: Ings 20 - 19 Volkes
Derby: Bryson 15 - 15 Martin

Further down, and those teams who have only one real hitman have had more mixed results over the season, with the second striker only weighing in single (or barely out of single) figures, and only 20+ between them:

QPR: Austin 14 - 5 Morrison
Wigan: Powell 11 - 9 Gómez
Reading: Le Fondre 13 - 9 Pogrebnyak
Forest: Patterson 10 - 10 Reid
Brighton: Ulloa 12 - 6 Crofts/Lingard
Ipswich: McGoldrick 16 - 10 Murphy

From that list, it would seem that it would seem that Ipswich are the team out of sorts but could be excused for having lost McGoldrick since February with a cruciate ligament injury until the end of April. Likewise Andy Reid is out for a similar amount of time,at Forest, impacting their form.

Meanwhile, Rovers: Rhodes 20 - 4 Gestede

Although still more than everyone from 4th to 8th, it's clear that the lack of threat from an attack partner is having an impact.

So the question is, assuming Rhodes isn't sold to fill the gap left by parachute payments, and Bowyer is backed over the Summer, and the club doesn't go to the wall Pompey style, how does Bowyer address this next season? Do we have the player(s) at the club already to fill this void? If so, who?

Or do we need to go into the transfer market? (Assuming funding is somehow made available). Who do we bring in? Lewis Grabban (Bournemouth) has chipped in with 15 goals this season? Worth a punt? Or is there someone else?

The post script question is, is 4-4-2 really dead, or have reports of its demise been greatly exaggerated?

Grabban is a good player and he has real pace but I doubt he'd come here as he turned down Brighton in January and signed a new deal at Bournemouth.

Brighton are another team on that list that have had bad injuries Ulloa was out for a couple months and Crofts got injured a month or so ago and is out for the season, also all of Lingard's goals were for Brum.

[Al]

Am I the only one who rates Gestede as an average striker?

[AJW]

i think Gestede would have scored more had a full season with us , he won everything in air yesterday and works hard for his team if Rhodes is sold i'd like to see Dwight Gayle at Rovers i think his pace and movement would compliment Rudy very well

[chaddyrovers]

Firstly, Very good topic to start up Stuart.

I think the way forward next season is Rhodes and Gestede up front in 4-4-2 formation with a midfield of Marshall, Cairney, Evans and Conway in most games

the Rhodes/Gestede partnership is developing and getting better as we seen yesterday.

I don't see Rhodes being sold at all this summer.

I would like Rovers sign a striker with pace. I would look at Scott Hogan of Rochdale who IMO would fit the bill from a couple of games Ive seen this season

[Majiball]

Am I the only one who rates Gestede as an average striker?

No you are not, he cannot do the one thing a striker needs to do with ease, finish.

One thing I'd like to see is JR's scoring record with and without Gestede.

[AJW]

No you are not, he cannot do the one thing a striker needs to do with ease, finish.

One thing I'd like to see is JR's scoring record with and without Gestede.

i think you'll find Rhodes will have scored fewer goals but what about points-per-game ?

[chaddyrovers]

since we signed Gestede on loan before we signed permanent.

Rhodes has scored 8 goals in 20 games compare to Gestede 4 goals in 19 games

[Majiball]

I would like Rovers sign a striker with pace. I would look at Scott Hogan of Rochdale who IMO would fit the bill from a couple of games Ive seen this season

Stick to robbing Nixon's opinion.

They have another of their youth team graduates who I'd be keeping an eye on over Hogan.

But credit where it's due to Rochdale they have 6 players, playing in their 1st regularly who have graduated from the academy in the last two years. That's a great record for This country

i think you'll find Rhodes will have scored fewer goals but what about points-per-game ?

Good suggestion, I'd do both now that you mention it.

The goals could come from 3 attacking midfielders playing behind Mr Ewing.

[Stuart]

Out of interest in the time since Getsede came in how many has Rhodes got?

It's probably quite even, it would be interesting to know how many games Rudy has played and how many it would result I'm over the season assuming the same strike rate

The best scenario is Rhodes and Rudy develop together as a partnership, Rudy can do the hard work and win the flick ons and Rhodes can be left to do what he does best when he learns how to play off him

Gestede joined (according to wiki) on 26th November, debuting as sub in the away defeat to Ipswich. (Rhodes scored before Gestede was introduced).

Gestede then came on for 3 mins at the end of the home win against Millwall and a minute from time in the away win at Yeovil (replacing Rhodes on both occasions).

Home v Sheffield Weds Draw (0-0), both start, Gestede 60 off, Rhodes 0 - 0 Gestede (60 mins, total 60, 0 goals)

Home v Birmingham Lose (3-2), Rhodes starts, Gestede 45 on, Rhodes 2 - 0 Gestede (45 mins, total 105, 2 goals)

Away v Leeds Win (2-1), both start, Rhodes 1 - 1 Gestede (90 mins, total 195, 2 goals)

Away v Forest Lose (4-1), Gestede starts, replaced by Rhodes 57

Home v Derby Draw (1-1), both start, Gestede 82 off, Rhodes 0 - 1 Gestede (82 mins, total 277, 1 goal)

Away v Barnsley Draw (2-2), both start, Rhodes 0 - 1 Gestede (90 mins, 367, 1 goal)

Home v Blackpool Win (2-0), both start, Rhodes 0 - 0 Gestede (90 mins, total 457, 0 goals)

Away v Boro Draw (0-0), both start, Rhodes 0 - 0 Gestede (90 mins, 547, 0 goals)

Away v Reading Win (1-0), both start, Gestede 77 off, Rhodes 0 - 1 Gestede (77 mins, 644, 1 goal)

Away v Bolton Lose (4-0), both start, Rhodes 0 - 0 Gestede (90 mins, 734, 0 goals)

Home v Burnley Lose (2-1), Rhodes starts, Gestede 80 on, Rhodes 1 - 0 Gestede (10 mins, 744, 0 goals)

Home v Bournemouth Lose (1-0), both start, Gestede 61 off, Rhodes 0 - 0 Gestede (61 mins, 805, 0 goals)

Away v Huddersfield Win (4-2), both start, Gestede 33 off, Rhodes 3 - 0 Gestede (33 mins, 838, 1 goal)

Home v Leicester Draw (1-1), both start, Rhodes 0 - 0 Gestede (90 mins, 928, 0 goals)

Record since Gestede arrived: Rhodes 7 - 4 (11 goals)

Record playing together (928 mins): Rhodes 4 - 4 (8 goals)

Sorry about the format, I'm on my phone so it's not very sophisticated.

So extrapolating hypothetically, a season is 4,140 minutes long, ignoring injury time [What a life!] it's about 17 goals each (34).

Leicester have 33 and are on course to get 42 between them.

Phew!

So the jury is out as to whether the can form a potent partnership.

[MarkBRFC]

I think Rhodes and Gestede could form a really good partnership over time, but it is essential that they have two very good midfielders behind them, could Cainey/Evans be that partnership? Maybe, I don't think they have played centrally together in a 442 since they joined have they?

Unfortunatly though I don't think we'll get chance to see it happen, as I think Rhodes will be gone this summer, and Jason Lowe (rightly or wrongly) will always be the first name down in midfield.

[Majiball]

I think Rhodes and Gestede could form a really good partnership over time, but it is essential that they have two very good midfielders behind them, could Cainey/Evans be that partnership? Maybe, I don't think they have played centrally together in a 442 since they joined have they?

Unfortunatly though I don't think we'll get chance to see it happen, as I think Rhodes will be gone this summer, and Jason Lowe (rightly or wrongly) will always be the first name down in midfield.

I don't think we'd get the best out of either Jr or Cairney by playing 442. Cairney is too weak and not strong enough in the tackle to play in a two like that. It also means the other will always be covering and will have more pressure defensively to cope with. I think by playing 3 in the middle the extra body would compensate for this through a simple extra body being there and tracking back. Really I'd want two Evans and if so perhaps Wallace at Tranmere, if he's back OK after his stint out? Freebie I believe, well compo. But he's one to look at for sure, would be good cover for cairney and Evans. It then also means Rhodes can play on his own as I am convinced this is how he needs to be played. He scores more on his own. I also think having 5 in midfield who are mobile will allow us to stop punting it forward to Rhodes all the time, as they'll move and be open to the pass.

[Bucksrover]

If we have gestede and rhodes up front, with conway and marshall down the wings then between the four of them with cairney and the centre backs chipping in from set pieces we might be ok.

Agree with the thread notion in that I have been a bit envious of teams with two prolific strikers. We rely too heavily on Rhodes.

But Rhodes and Gestede (if both here) will be a better combination next season as they play together more. Sutton and Gallagher mark 2.

[AJW]

I don't think we'd get the best out of either Jr or Cairney by playing 442. Cairney is too weak and not strong enough in the tackle to play in a two like that. It also means the other will always be covering and will have more pressure defensively to cope with. I think by playing 3 in the middle the extra body would compensate for this through a simple extra body being there and tracking back. Really I'd want two Evans and if so perhaps Wallace at Tranmere, if he's back OK after his stint out? Freebie I believe, well compo. But he's one to look at for sure, would be good cover for cairney and Evans. It then also means Rhodes can play on his own as I am convinced this is how he needs to be played. He scores more on his own. I also think having 5 in midfield who are mobile will allow us to stop punting it forward to Rhodes all the time, as they'll move and be open to the pass.

strange , because although the stats may prove otherwise , i don't think Rhodes has enough about him to play the lone striker role Gordan Strachan certainly doesn't that's for sure (not that that has anything to do with Rovers) for me his all-round game benefits from playing in a 2 but his goals ratio doesn't

[Stuart]

strange , because although the stats may prove otherwise , i don't think Rhodes has enough about him to play the lone striker role Gordan Strachan certainly doesn't that's for sure (not that that has anything to do with Rovers) for me his all-round game benefits from playing in a 2 but his goals ratio doesn't

Interesting observation. So do we want Rhodes to improve his all-round game or to score goals?

If it's the former, then we will need someone to put the ball back in the net just as often. Then we'll need someone to replace Rhodes - because if he becomes that 'all-round striker' and can maintain his accuracy (even with fewer chances) he won't be at Rovers much longer.

Bit of a paradox is old Jordan.

[thenodrog]

Am I the only one who rates Gestede as an average striker?

Average striker maybe but a bloody good target man! He is awesome in the air and reminds me of when Sutton came at first. He played up top with Shearer in support. That lasted just a few months before KMD decided they were better the other way around. The rest is history.

I'd think some like Billy McKay at ICT would be a good signing he'd be cheapish, on relatively low wages, he works tremendously hard off the ball and he scores plenty of goals.

Sounds like a better replacement for JR rather than Gestede to me.

[AJW]

Interesting observation. So do we want Rhodes to improve his all-round game or to score goals?

If it's the former, then we will need someone to put the ball back in the net just as often. Then we'll need someone to replace Rhodes - because if he becomes that 'all-round striker' and can maintain his accuracy (even with fewer chances) he won't be at Rovers much longer.

Bit of a paradox is old Jordan.

i agree , i suppose the question is how to Blackburn benefit the most from

[Majiball]

strange , because although the stats may prove otherwise , i don't think Rhodes has enough about him to play the lone striker role Gordan Strachan certainly doesn't that's for sure (not that that has anything to do with Rovers) for me his all-round game benefits from playing in a 2 but his goals ratio doesn't

I don't see why a lone striker must be of the a-typical variety? I wouldn't be playing long balls up to him, I'd want to see us play more. When he accounts for 50% of our goals I'm not sure improving his all round play is the way to go, we don't score many. If Stuart is correct then that's almost half the amount, or 25% of our total goals, JR is fine the rest need to step up. If anything we really need to focus on getting more out of midfield, whether that be on the training pitch or via a transfer. We need to be able to play through and around more and retain the ball and stop lumping it forward to someone who can't play that way. How many set-pieces have we scored? Others need to score more. We have currently 44 goals, we'll need at least 60 at this point next year to be in with a shout. How many has Hanley scored? Surely with his physicality and aggression he should get 5-6 a season? Midfield surely at least 20-25 (if promotion), Dann scored a few he's off getting relegated again. Also consider those lost goals and threat. Recently he's scored on his own and dried up with a partner, he's been trying to do more off the ball and what has happened? Longest barren spell in his career. you see I see trying to get JR to both still score 30 odd league goals a season and contribute to the rest of play like Drogba as akin to asking the golden goose for two eggs a day.

The last thing we want to do is kill our golden goose and him scoring 50% less is doing that in my eyes. It's high time these so called managers pulled their fingers out of their arses and actually figured out how to get the best out of JR. sit down study his career goals etc etc. Christ united use players main movement patterns to create fitness sessions based on the movements they do most often on the pitch. do that and set the team up to get Jr in those area's on those runs. Just look at Torres, absolutely awesome at Liverpool and almost as good as Andy Carroll at chelsea. And all because he was asked to play more with his back to goal. We don't want that to happen to JR, we also can't afford it. when will people realise that the problem isn't JR, it's tactical and JR doesn't do those.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

Has Rhodes scored more with Dunn playing just behind him or Gestede playing around him? I like Gestede but it does seem that Rhodes does benefit from Dunn than Gestede.

[thenodrog]

Has Rhodes scored more with Dunn playing just behind him or Gestede playing around him? I like Gestede but it does seem that Rhodes does benefit from Dunn than Gestede.

And vice versa. Gestede would undoubtedly play Dunny in far better than Rhodes in and around the box where he is still very dangerous.

[thenodrog]

Not, it's not the latest PS4 military flight sim, it's a question about where our second goalscorer is, and where those goals are coming from.

Everyone has an opinion on Jordan Rhodes and, whether or not you think he contributes enough, his goal record speaks for itself. But although Rhodes is finishing plenty of his chances, there is a big gaping hole where a strike partner should be. For all of the talk of 4-4-2 being dead, it's important that someone else contributes in with their fair share of the goals, and this seems to be borne out by those teams above us in the league.

It's no coincidence that the top three teams have shared spoils when it comes to finding the back of the net, with 30+ between them:

Leicester: Nugent 17 - 16 Vardy

Burnley: Ings 20 - 19 Volkes

Derby: Bryson 15 - 15 Martin

Further down, and those teams who have only one real hitman have had more mixed results over the season, with the second striker only weighing in single (or barely out of single) figures, and only 20+ between them:

QPR: Austin 14 - 5 Morrison

Wigan: Powell 11 - 9 Gómez

Reading: Le Fondre 13 - 9 Pogrebnyak

Forest: Patterson 10 - 10 Reid

Brighton: Ulloa 12 - 6 Crofts/Lingard

Ipswich: McGoldrick 16 - 10 Murphy

From that list, it would seem that it would seem that Ipswich are the team out of sorts but could be excused for having lost McGoldrick since February with a cruciate ligament injury until the end of April. Likewise Andy Reid is out for a similar amount of time,at Forest, impacting their form.

Meanwhile, Rovers: Rhodes 20 - 4 Gestede

Although still more than everyone from 4th to 8th, it's clear that the lack of threat from an attack partner is having an impact.

So the question is, assuming Rhodes isn't sold to fill the gap left by parachute payments, and Bowyer is backed over the Summer, and the club doesn't go to the wall Pompey style, how does Bowyer address this next season? Do we have the player(s) at the club already to fill this void? If so, who?

Or do we need to go into the transfer market? (Assuming funding is somehow made available). Who do we bring in? Lewis Grabban (Bournemouth) has chipped in with 15 goals this season? Worth a punt? Or is there someone else?

The post script question is, is 4-4-2 really dead, or have reports of its demise been greatly exaggerated?

4-4-2 is 4-4-1-1 has more life in it and especially if the 1 and 1 have good movement and interchange. For my part that is something we could improve. Defenders hate being dragged out of position .

[Amo]

I don't see why a lone striker must be of the a-typical variety? I wouldn't be playing long balls up to him, I'd want to see us play more. When he accounts for 50% of our goals I'm not sure improving his all round play is the way to go, we don't score many. If Stuart is correct then that's almost half the amount, or 25% of our total goals, JR is fine the rest need to step up. If anything we really need to focus on getting more out of midfield, whether that be on the training pitch or via a transfer. We need to be able to play through and around more and retain the ball and stop lumping it forward to someone who can't play that way. How many set-pieces have we scored? Others need to score more. We have currently 44 goals, we'll need at least 60 at this point next year to be in with a shout. How many has Hanley scored? Surely with his physicality and aggression he should get 5-6 a season? Midfield surely at least 20-25 (if promotion), Dann scored a few he's off getting relegated again. Also consider those lost goals and threat. Recently he's scored on his own and dried up with a partner, he's been trying to do more off the ball and what has happened? Longest barren spell in his career. you see I see trying to get JR to both still score 30 odd league goals a season and contribute to the rest of play like Drogba as akin to asking the golden goose for two eggs a day.

The last thing we want to do is kill our golden goose and him scoring 50% less is doing that in my eyes. It's high time these so called managers pulled their fingers out of their arses and actually figured out how to get the best out of JR. sit down study his career goals etc etc. Christ united use players main movement patterns to create fitness sessions based on the movements they do most often on the pitch. do that and set the team up to get Jr in those area's on those runs. Just look at Torres, absolutely awesome at Liverpool and almost as good as Andy Carroll at chelsea. And all because he was asked to play more with his back to goal. We don't want that to happen to JR, we also can't afford it. when will people realise that the problem isn't JR, it's tactical and JR doesn't do those.

+1 and stuff.

No doubt this will be conveniently overlooked by the Rhodes bashers.