[Archived] Second Striker Syndrome

[den]

It's the wrong question. The question should be "how do we improve performances".

[Majiball]

It's the wrong question. The question should be "how do we improve performances".

I thought that was what was eluded as it was read?

[OJRovers]

Hull got promoted with no one in their squad even scoring 10 goals. We need more goals from our midfield.

[darrenrover]

I don't see why a lone striker must be of the a-typical variety? I wouldn't be playing long balls up to him, I'd want to see us play more. When he accounts for 50% of our goals I'm not sure improving his all round play is the way to go, we don't score many. If Stuart is correct then that's almost half the amount, or 25% of our total goals, JR is fine the rest need to step up. If anything we really need to focus on getting more out of midfield, whether that be on the training pitch or via a transfer. We need to be able to play through and around more and retain the ball and stop lumping it forward to someone who can't play that way. How many set-pieces have we scored? Others need to score more. We have currently 44 goals, we'll need at least 60 at this point next year to be in with a shout. How many has Hanley scored? Surely with his physicality and aggression he should get 5-6 a season? Midfield surely at least 20-25 (if promotion), Dann scored a few he's off getting relegated again. Also consider those lost goals and threat. Recently he's scored on his own and dried up with a partner, he's been trying to do more off the ball and what has happened? Longest barren spell in his career. you see I see trying to get JR to both still score 30 odd league goals a season and contribute to the rest of play like Drogba as akin to asking the golden goose for two eggs a day.

The last thing we want to do is kill our golden goose and him scoring 50% less is doing that in my eyes. It's high time these so called managers pulled their fingers out of their arses and actually figured out how to get the best out of JR. sit down study his career goals etc etc. Christ united use players main movement patterns to create fitness sessions based on the movements they do most often on the pitch. do that and set the team up to get Jr in those area's on those runs. Just look at Torres, absolutely awesome at Liverpool and almost as good as Andy Carroll at chelsea. And all because he was asked to play more with his back to goal. We don't want that to happen to JR, we also can't afford it. when will people realise that the problem isn't JR, it's tactical and JR doesn't do those.

I fully agree with this synopsis.

I'd play 4 1 3 1 1 as the best option as a formation to get the best out of Rhodes but the midfield need to be much more mobile and willing to support attacks. Perhaps an option for Cairney is in the 'Tugay' role sat in front of the back 4, someone who can pick a pass and dictate play looking up field. Much more mobility, playing a higher line and pace with an end product are paramount IMO.

[thenodrog]

No doubt this will be conveniently overlooked by the Rhodes bashers.

I might be wrong but reading the board this weekend it appears that more and more are questioning his worth to the team. Personally I thought he put a really hard shift in despite being on the end of some rough treatment and getting little to no protection from the Referee.

[thenodrog]

I don't see why a lone striker must be of the a-typical variety? I wouldn't be playing long balls up to him, I'd want to see us play more. When he accounts for 50% of our goals I'm not sure improving his all round play is the way to go, we don't score many. If Stuart is correct then that's almost half the amount, or 25% of our total goals, JR is fine the rest need to step up. If anything we really need to focus on getting more out of midfield, whether that be on the training pitch or via a transfer. We need to be able to play through and around more and retain the ball and stop lumping it forward to someone who can't play that way. How many set-pieces have we scored? Others need to score more. We have currently 44 goals, we'll need at least 60 at this point next year to be in with a shout. How many has Hanley scored? Surely with his physicality and aggression he should get 5-6 a season? Midfield surely at least 20-25 (if promotion), Dann scored a few he's off getting relegated again. Also consider those lost goals and threat. Recently he's scored on his own and dried up with a partner, he's been trying to do more off the ball and what has happened? Longest barren spell in his career. you see I see trying to get JR to both still score 30 odd league goals a season and contribute to the rest of play like Drogba as akin to asking the golden goose for two eggs a day.

The last thing we want to do is kill our golden goose and him scoring 50% less is doing that in my eyes. It's high time these so called managers pulled their fingers out of their arses and actually figured out how to get the best out of JR. sit down study his career goals etc etc. Christ united use players main movement patterns to create fitness sessions based on the movements they do most often on the pitch. do that and set the team up to get Jr in those area's on those runs. Just look at Torres, absolutely awesome at Liverpool and almost as good as Andy Carroll at chelsea. And all because he was asked to play more with his back to goal. We don't want that to happen to JR, we also can't afford it. when will people realise that the problem isn't JR, it's tactical and JR doesn't do those.

Best we all sit down and figure out how to get the best out of Jordan Rhodes is it? Good idea and great that you have pointed it out Maj cos they are obviously all thick and stupid at Brockhall aren't they! We should design training and tactics solely to maximise his goalscoring ability? Thats good. BUT what happens if he has a run of indifferent form? What happens when he gets a short term injury? What happens heaven forbid should he get a long term one?

Play to his abilities sure but not at the expense of stifling the rest of the team as the goals total suggests that we appear to have done. Look at what Andy Reids absence has done to Forest. You would do well to bear in mind Maj that there is no 'i' in team and nor can there ever be.

[Stuart]

And vice versa. Gestede would undoubtedly play Dunny in far better than Rhodes in and around the box where he is still very dangerous.

Anyone talking about "Dunn plus anyone" needs their bumps felt. If that was an option, there would probably be no reason for this thread.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

And vice versa. Gestede would undoubtedly play Dunny in far better than Rhodes in and around the box where he is still very dangerous.

Not disagreeing but with Bowyer dropping Rhodes, rightly or wrongly, isn't an option. So the question has to be who plays 2nd striker/ attacking midfielder which gets the best of Rhodes.

To me I think it is the old pie eater, with Gestede coming on after an hour.

[Stuart]

It's the wrong question. The question should be "how do we improve performances".

There's always a critic. It's simply an observation that those team above us appear to have two strikers contributing with 15+ goals apiece (on average).

If you feel this is simply a coincidence, fair enough.

[den]

I might be wrong but reading the board this weekend it appears that more and more are questioning his worth to the team. Personally I thought he put a really hard shift in despite being on the end of some rough treatment and getting little to no protection from the Referee.

His worth to the "team" is very limited, as you and me both know Gord.

Just over a couple of weeks ago we played Burnley. Rhodes scored again, but we lost again. Apart from his goal he might just as well have been sat watching. To be fair, the first half he did as well as I've seen him do, but the second half he was his usual, totally ineffective self. Rhodes is about goals, we all know that. He does Nowt else, we all know that as well.

Burnley were no better than us in midfield. I expected much more from them. David Jones did very little. What they did have though was Ings up front. He ran his socks off for the entire 90 mins, gave our back four a torrid time with his energy, strength and desire. If you compare the two performances that day, it's obvious that Ings makes Burnley into what they are - and Rhodes makes us into nothing. Ings won the game for them with his performance. He seemingly does that for the whole 90 mins, week in, week out. Ings "makes things happen", it's what good strikers do.

Just a few days later, we had fans on here saying that as long as Rhodes scores, he shouldn't be expected to do much else! Apparently if he scores, that's him done! For me we'll never be a top team in this league with Rhodes. Play him up front on his own and the team suffers. Play 4-4-2 because he can't play the lone striker at all well and the team suffers.

I can see why Rhodes at the age of 24 is still playing in the championship. He scores goals, but the whole team suffers because of his lack of footballing talent. It's obvious. If we had paid a couple of million for him, then fine, no problem. However, we have the transfer fee and wages of possibly four good players riding on his shoulders - maybe four players that would make all the difference - and assuming there isn't extra funding available, we're stuck with what we have.

There you go another Jordan hating post

There's always a critic. It's simply an observation that those team above us appear to have two strikers contributing with 15+ goals apiece (on average).

If you feel this is simply a coincidence, fair enough.

Not intended as criticism Stuart, more an observation.

[Amo]

Must be great playing in Rovers' midfield. Just hoof it up to the frontman and let him cop all the flak.

[den]

Must be great playing in Rovers' midfield. Just hoof it up to the frontman and let him cop all the flak.

That's pretty much what Burnley did Amo. Early ball to the strikers. Difference is that Ings thrived on them just like many front men do. Indeed the early ball is what they want. For us it's a bad option.

[darrenrover]

His worth to the "team" is very limited, as you and me both know Gord.

Just over a couple of weeks ago we played Burnley. Rhodes scored again, but we lost again. Apart from his goal he might just as well have been sat watching. To be fair, the first half he did as well as I've seen him do, but the second half he was his usual, totally ineffective self. Rhodes is about goals, we all know that. He does Nowt else, we all know that as well.

Burnley were no better than us in midfield. I expected much more from them. David Jones did very little. What they did have though was Ings up front. He ran his socks off for the entire 90 mins, gave our back four a torrid time with his energy, strength and desire. If you compare the two performances that day, it's obvious that Ings makes Burnley into what they are - and Rhodes makes us into nothing. Ings won the game for them with his performance. He seemingly does that for the whole 90 mins, week in, week out. Ings "makes things happen", it's what good strikers do.

Just a few days later, we had fans on here saying that as long as Rhodes scores, he shouldn't be expected to do much else! Apparently if he scores, that's him done! For me we'll never be a top team in this league with Rhodes. Play him up front on his own and the team suffers. Play 4-4-2 because he can't play the lone striker at all well and the team suffers.

I can see why Rhodes at the age of 24 is still playing in the championship. He scores goals, but the whole team suffers because of his lack of footballing talent. It's obvious. If we had paid a couple of million for him, then fine, no problem. However, we have the transfer fee and wages of possibly four good players riding on his shoulders - maybe four players that would make all the difference - and assuming there isn't extra funding available, we're stuck with what we have.

There you go another Jordan hating post

Not intended as criticism Stuart, more an observation.

His use to the team is more often than not he finds the onion bag.

Why is there this necessity that Rhodes should be all things to all men?

As rightly pointed out it's a team game, why not focus on the rest? I'm pretty sure JR will contribute more in terms of goals if the rest stepped up to the plate.

[den]

His use to the team is more often than not he finds the onion bag.

Why is there this necessity that Rhodes should be all things to all men?

As rightly pointed out it's a team game, why not focus on the rest? I'm pretty sure JR will contribute more in terms of goals if the rest stepped up to the plate.

Just proves my point.

[riverside returns]

I fully agree with this synopsis.

I'd play 4 1 3 1 1 as the best option as a formation to get the best out of Rhodes but the midfield need to be much more mobile and willing to support attacks. Perhaps an option for Cairney is in the 'Tugay' role sat in front of the back 4, someone who can pick a pass and dictate play looking up field. Much more mobility, playing a higher line and pace with an end product are paramount IMO.

I agree with this as a concept as if it was our suggested shape. Play TC in the defensive role a la Tugay and move the terrier type futher forward thus stopping the ball coming within shooting distance before a challenge is put in. The whole emphasis should be on pushing the opposition further away and preventing long distance speculative goals similar to many we have been suckered with this season. I would suggest a midfield 2 of TC and Evans with 2 speedy wingers moved forwards by the full backs and a high defensive line.

[Neil Weaver]

You're not going to get any argument from me Den. Interesting though that we certainly wouldn't have got 3 points from Hudds (a) without Rhodes' poaching. I still reckon if he'd have been playing for Hudds we'd have lost comfortably.

[ABBEY]

I might be wrong but reading the board this weekend it appears that more and more are questioning his worth to the team. Personally I thought he put a really hard shift in despite being on the end of some rough treatment and getting little to no protection from the Referee.

Me and my lad said after the batch Rhodes had worked his nads off on saturda

[Majiball]

Best we all sit down and figure out how to get the best out of Jordan Rhodes is it? Good idea and great that you have pointed it out Maj cos they are obviously all thick and stupid at Brockhall aren't they! We should design training and tactics solely to maximise his goalscoring ability? Thats good. BUT what happens if he has a run of indifferent form? What happens when he gets a short term injury? What happens heaven forbid should he get a long term one?

Play to his abilities sure but not at the expense of stifling the rest of the team as the goals total suggests that we appear to have done. Look at what Andy Reids absence has done to Forest. You would do well to bear in mind Maj that there is no 'i' in team and nor can there ever be.

May i suggest you re-read the post as what you've responded with isn't what I said, I've highlighted the message I wrote. All those what-ifs can be applied to anyone, if it happens deal with it but otherwise prepare well and you'll hopefully avoid them. On the subject of getting the best out of JR, how many differing attempts has anyone seen? because every time I watch it's the same, long ball, he doesn't hold it and we lose possession, Kean, Black, Appleton, Berg and GB have all tried this. Hit the front man asap, the typical British mode of playing.

Off course there is no I in team, it's not one of the required letters, but there is a me!

[Amo]

Hit the front man asap, the a-typical British mode of playing.

'atypical' means NOT conforming to type.

And it's 'allude', not 'elude'.

Don't worry, I got your back, bro.

[had.e.nuff]

If we have gestede and rhodes up front, with conway and marshall down the wings then between the four of them with cairney and the centre backs chipping in from set pieces we might be ok.

Agree with the thread notion in that I have been a bit envious of teams with two prolific strikers. We rely too heavily on Rhodes.

But Rhodes and Gestede (if both here) will be a better combination next season as they play together more. Sutton and Gallagher mark 2.

I think they are worth a season together to see if they can gel into a partnership , but Rhodes is usually good for 20+ every season , some of the teams above us have been lucky with partnerships with them having their best seasons of their careers ,like glen murry last season and the two down the road this season (both got 50% of their total career goals this season)

[Majiball]

'atypical' means NOT conforming to type.

And it's 'allude', not 'elude'.

Don't worry, I got your back, bro.

Good to know mate, now you can get rid of spelling in IQ tests as I dropped a rank when that happened!!

[den]

You're not going to get any argument from me Den. Interesting though that we certainly wouldn't have got 3 points from Hudds (a) without Rhodes' poaching. I still reckon if he'd have been playing for Hudds we'd have lost comfortably.

Yes agreed. Rhodes has done more than we could have hoped for in terms of goal scoring. Unfortunately, IMO, his weaknesses make it very, very difficult to move beyond where we are now. Especially if there's no more cash available.

All done. Again.

[Stuart]

You're not going to get any argument from me Den. Interesting though that we certainly wouldn't have got 3 points from Hudds (a) without Rhodes' poaching. I still reckon if he'd have been playing for Hudds we'd have lost comfortably.

15 points by my reckoning, Neil.

It's a shame this thread is veering onto a Rhodes thread again, the question was if we need someone else to weigh in with 15+ goals alongside him. I can only assume there are a lot of people who think that wouldn't be a good idea.

[Amo]

Yes agreed. Rhodes has done more than we could have hoped for in terms of goal scoring. Unfortunately, IMO, his weaknesses make it very, very difficult to move beyond where we are now. Especially if there's no more cash available.

All done. Again.

I'd still like to know why Rhodes bears the brunt of our team's failings? And try without mentioning his price-tag, because even if we'd paid £2m for him I'd assume you'd be making the same argument? As stated ad nauseam, Rhodes is not the complete striker, because he wouldn't be plying his trade here otherwise, but in the 18 yard box there's none more lethal, and the team should be set up to exploit that, pressing high up the pitch and getting him facing goal instead of playing with his back to it. Despite ploughing a lone furrow up front for much of the season competing for hoofballs, he's still notched 20 goals this season! Oh, I know the counter-argument, we'd be a stronger team, we'd concede less etc. but I don't buy that. Unless you're also blaming Rhodes for defenders making Sunday-league errors or Lowe's fear of round-shaped objects?

[thenodrog]

Must be great playing in Rovers' midfield. Just hoof it up to the frontman and let him cop all the flak.

That post just confirms that you know much more about boobs than football Topman.

btw You obviously haven't seen much of JR live. Did you go to the Bournemouth match?