[Archived] Why no Watford thread? Watford v Rovers, 25th March, KO: 7.45

[blueboy3333]

Conway has 3 goals in his short time here

Great acquisition (that probably wouldn't have happened if Marshall didn't get injured) but its great to have a midfielder chipping in often

In fact 2 midfielders scoring tonight!

Of course it would have happened, Bowyer wants to play with two quality wingers. Taylor and Judge were good freebies but obviously not up the standard he wants, and Conway might not have been available last summer, hence buying him in January. But, like you say, a great acquisition by Bowyer, and by no means the first.

[broadsword]

Do you think it's likely Venky's will appoint the right man? If so, why?

It doesn't matter, because they won't get rid of the current one.

And let's face it, he's not the right man, either.

There's no point tempering your opinions because of what you'd perceive Venky's would do, that's a nonsense because you're contemplating a hypothetical question.

Let's frame it another way .. was Gary Bowyer the best available (ie best track record) man for the job who we could afford? I doubt it, if he was it was an amazing @#/? coincidence that he was already on the pay-roll. I suspect the only possible criteria that he was selected on was whether or not they already knew him and whether any compoensation had to be paid.

Quite honestly, it was another opportunity lost.

[PAFELL]

I didn't expect Rovers to get anything from Watford - so a point away from home, is more than I expected.

Bowyer has and will continue to make mistakes. He has got things wrong this season - but has also got things right as well. This will be the case for any new manager having their first management job - every manager who has ever managed has made mistakes - take fergy at man u in his first season, very nearly lost his job. Bowyer came into management with the club in a complete mess. On a hiding to nothing from the beginning. Whoever had that job would come into a difficult situation. So for a complete novice to do what he has done is good.

Bowyer has done enough, in his first season to earn the support of supporters, he is learning - he may at times be slow at correcting his mistakes - but that is part of the learning curve.

It doesn't matter, because they won't get rid of the current one.

And let's face it, he's not the right man, either.

There's no point tempering your opinions because of what you'd perceive Venky's would do, that's a nonsense because you're contemplating a hypothetical question.

Let's frame it another way .. was Gary Bowyer the best available (ie best track record) man for the job who we could afford? I doubt it, if he was it was an amazing @#/? coincidence that he was already on the pay-roll. I suspect the only possible criteria that he was selected on was whether or not they already knew him and whether any compoensation had to be paid.

Quite honestly, it was another opportunity lost.

Your forgetting there was no money to get a replacement for Bowyer. who under the circumstances has done a good job - made mistakes, like any new manager does. yet is doing ok. Do you expect folk to become expert in management straight away?

[West Yorks Rover]

I didn't expect Rovers to get anything from Watford - so a point away from home, is more than I expected.

Bowyer has and will continue to make mistakes. He has got things wrong this season - but has also got things right as well. This will be the case for any new manager having their first management job - every manager who has ever managed has made mistakes - take fergy at man u in his first season, very nearly lost his job. Bowyer came into management with the club in a complete mess. On a hiding to nothing from the beginning. Whoever had that job would come into a difficult situation. So for a complete novice to do what he has done is good.

Bowyer has done enough, in his first season to earn the support of supporters, he is learning - he may at times be slow at correcting his mistakes - but that is part of the learning curve.

Your forgetting there was no money to get a replacement for Bowyer. who under the circumstances has done a good job - made mistakes, like any new manager does. yet is doing ok. Do you expect folk to become expert in management straight away?

Plenty of money to pay for all the players wages that he brought in, so I don't agree with that I'm afraid.

You could get a very decent, experienced manager for £1m per year and say £1m bonus for promotion.

£300k for his assistant and tell him he has to work with the coaches already at the club.

No guarantee of success of course, but to say there was no money is a bit silly.

[Stuart]

Thats a right cop out if you dont mind me saying so. I asked you for some names.

There is no point in listing manager names.

People have put these up in the past - myself included and they are widely ignored, poo-poo'd or simply misdirected with a "I can't believe people are talking about changing the manager". Yet follow up with "I notice that Forest have sacked Davies - good on them".

For some people, there is simply NO better manager out there would could improve Rovers fortunes apart from Bowyer. The reason? Because we previously signed three puddings and "Gaz is a good bloke".

Or in other words, Venkys are incapable of signing a proper manager, and until they are gone let's not upset the uneasy status quo. So presumably that means that new owners would have to replace Shelfy too.

[perthblue02]

Well was certainly a nice surprise this morning seeing the result, expected us to come unstuck at Watford . Good to read about a fight back after going behind. Do wonder if certain players had been fit what the line up would have been

[broadsword]

Your forgetting there was no money to get a replacement for Bowyer. who under the circumstances has done a good job - made mistakes, like any new manager does. yet is doing ok. Do you expect folk to become expert in management straight away?

No I don't, which is why appointing him was a daft move.

No money to get an experienced manager in, but there's been money to pay for four inexperienced managers, a global clown, a Portuguese circus, an agent's son as a player, payoff's left right and centre and umpteen players this season?

But no money for an experienced manager. What do you think we're paying 'gaz' in, milk bottle tops?

Ever heard of the phrase 'quality not quantity'

[PAFELL]

No I don't, which is why appointing him was a daft move.

No money to get an experienced manager in, but there's been money to pay for four inexperienced managers, a global clown, a Portuguese circus, an agent's son as a player, payoff's left right and centre and umpteen players this season?

But no money for an experienced manager. What do you think we're paying 'gaz' in, milk bottle tops?

Ever heard of the phrase 'quality not quantity'

Yes there WAS money - but that was wasted. Problem now is that there isn't. Also although there are legal challenges going on with regards to FFP - if that fails. Rovers could have the worlds best manager and they would still be hampered. Rovers will end up paying a fine as well as a transfer embargo for failing to meet the FFP. So with a fine and and a transfer embargo - we have what we have now.

There is no point in listing manager names.

People have put these up in the past - myself included and they are widely ignored, poo-poo'd or simply misdirected with a "I can't believe people are talking about changing the manager". Yet follow up with "I notice that Forest have sacked Davies - good on them".

For some people, there is simply NO better manager out there would could improve Rovers fortunes apart from Bowyer. The reason? Because we previously signed three puddings and "Gaz is a good bloke".

Or in other words, Venkys are incapable of signing a proper manager, and until they are gone let's not upset the uneasy status quo. So presumably that means that new owners would have to replace Shelfy too.

There are better managers out there - but it costs to sack a manager and costs more to bring somebody else in - who would also want their own staff with them.

[yoda's brother]

You don't appear to have learned anything from the Allardyce years have you? Big Sam (GAZ) only took the shackles off the team once safety from relegation was virtually certain.

so thats what we have been doing so far this season

[broadsword]

Yes there WAS money - but that was wasted. Problem now is that there isn't. Also although there are legal challenges going on with regards to FFP - if that fails. Rovers could have the worlds best manager and they would still be hampered. Rovers will end up paying a fine as well as a transfer embargo for failing to meet the FFP. So with a fine and and a transfer embargo - we have what we have now.

Well, there wasn't money before, either, really. It's the bank's money that's being spent, how else are we paying for these loans and transfers? If Rovers end up being hampered by FFP, having an inexperienced man at the helm is even more of a handicap.

So are you saying we're stuck with Bowyer until he resigns?

I don't believe this to be true, and if it was me who owned Rovers (yes, I know it's Venky's and "they would appoint another wally" or whatever, but I'm talking about what is the best option now) then I would bin Bowyer, get Mackay or Davies in and tell them they have to horse-trade to get the wage bill down.

An experienced man could get more out of a smaller squad and would pay for himself.

[rovers11]

Good result last night, especially when you consider Watford have won their last 5/6 games in a row at home without conceding. We smashed three against them and should have scored more. Obviously, the result doesn't help our play off push but, realistically, any hopes disappeared when we lost three in a row.

The squad is shaping up nicely with Conway and Gestede settling in nicely, Evans getting back to full fitness, and Cairney and King returning to the squad. A midfield four of Marshall, Conway, Evans and Cairney will be deadly next season with the likes of King, Dunn and maybe Rochina to come off the bench.

Right back is a weak spot and we dont really have any competition for Spurr at lb so those areas need addressing.

The approach seems to have changed recently from GB. He now seems to be going attacking rather than placing emphasis on keeping clean sheets. This has seen us score 8 goals in 3 games but equally it means we've conceded more. It's an approach we need to stick to tho.

[DE.]

There's no point tempering your opinions because of what you'd perceive Venky's would do, that's a nonsense because you're contemplating a hypothetical question.

Let's frame it another way .. was Gary Bowyer the best available (ie best track record) man for the job who we could afford? I doubt it, if he was it was an amazing @#/? coincidence that he was already on the pay-roll. I suspect the only possible criteria that he was selected on was whether or not they already knew him and whether any compoensation had to be paid.

Quite honestly, it was another opportunity lost.

I think it's quite appropriate to consider what the impact of sacking Bowyer would be, and a huge part of that is the owners. Yes it's hypothetical but surely the debate about sacking him is hypothetical in its very nature because it determines a change will be made and there will be inevitable consequences which have to be thought about. Otherwise the argument is just "Bowyer should be sacked but I don't know or care what would happen afterwards". Not much of a debate!

I agree that in an ideal world we would have appointed an experienced manager in the summer, but we didn't. In an ideal world we wouldn't be owned by Venky's, but we are. These are the cards we've been dealt and allowing Venky's to roll the dice again and potentially plunge the club into another period of disruption and confusion (remember how long they were confused when we were relegated?) could be catastrophic.

I suppose the way I look at it is - is there a high chance Venky's would balls up the next appointment? Based on their past history I'd have to say yes. Worth noting they still don't have a boardroom structure or any advisor capable of influencing them to make a good choice, either. With that in mind I can't justify sacking a manager keeping us in a steady position in the league and building a team more suited to the division. Especially when he's had less than a season fully in charge, which apparently equates to giving him a chance nowadays! There's a high probability the club would once again descend into a circus and I'm not sure if we can survive another round of that.

[K-Hod]

Thats a right cop out if you dont mind me saying so. I asked you for some names.

That may be, but what's the point? None of us are choosing the manager, should Bowyer get the boot.

Could we get Abbey to ask our new Director of Communications on Twitter?.....

[den]

I think it's quite appropriate to consider what the impact of sacking Bowyer would be, and a huge part of that is the owners. Yes it's hypothetical but surely the debate about sacking him is hypothetical in its very nature because it determines a change will be made and there will be inevitable consequences which have to be thought about. Otherwise the argument is just "Bowyer should be sacked but I don't know or care what would happen afterwards". Not much of a debate!

I agree that in an ideal world we would have appointed an experienced manager in the summer, but we didn't. In an ideal world we wouldn't be owned by Venky's, but we are. These are the cards we've been dealt and allowing Venky's to roll the dice again and potentially plunge the club into another period of disruption and confusion (remember how long they were confused when we were relegated?) could be catastrophic.

I suppose the way I look at it is - is there a high chance Venky's would balls up the next appointment? Based on their past history I'd have to say yes. Worth noting they still don't have a boardroom structure or any advisor capable of influencing them to make a good choice, either. With that in mind I can't justify sacking a manager keeping us in a steady position in the league and building a team more suited to the division. Especially when he's had less than a season fully in charge, which apparently equates to giving him a chance nowadays! There's a high probability the club would once again descend into a circus and I'm not sure if we can survive another round of that.

Once again descend into a circus? We still are, aren't we? I thought I was the negative one DE.

What you are arguing here, is that we have to stick with what we have because Venky's won't go about their job properly. What you should be doing - IMO - is arguing what the right thing to do is. Don't fall into this den of mediocrity ( can't believe it's me saying this). For me, I would already be taking advice on potential managerial candidates. I would be talking to them, finding out where they think they could take us, what money they would need, how they like to play their football, how ambitious they are, what they feel about working at BRFC etc, etc, - all with the intention of making an approach for them in the summer if the right man could be found and was willing to come.

I know that's unlikely to happen, not impossible but unlikely. As fans isn't that what we should be expecting to happen as a matter of course? Jeez, if we start arguing that we're better to leave things alone because of fear, we might as well just take up origami on a Saturday afternoon.

[ABBEY]

That may be, but what's the point? None of us are choosing the manager, should Bowyer get the boot.

Could we get Abbey to ask our new Director of Communications on Twitter?.....

He was mr chatty at first but it appears he's been silenced and ignores REAL questions.. Don't worry he's looking into free wifi though

[Leonard Venkhater]

He was mr chatty at first but it appears he's been silenced and ignores REAL questions.. Don't worry he's looking into free wifi though

Post these questions...

Given that you famously berated Rovers fans for their protests against Steve Kean,....

1) What would you have done if this had been going on at Everton? i.e. new owners came in, sacked Moyes and appointed, Anderson's man, the third team goalkeeping coach/ bottle washer/lavatory attendant as the new manager?

2) What happened to make you realise Rovers fans were actually right to protest?

3)Who and what prevented you from publicly acknowledging your new opinion and admitting your previous mistake( indeed journalistic howler)...that these were fans who were simply protesting to try and save their club?

Jeremy Paxman's Blue and White Army

[perthblue02]

Post these questions...

Given that you famously berated Rovers fans for their protests against Steve Kean,....

1) What would you have done if this had been going on at Everton? i.e. new owners came in, sacked Moyes and appointed, Anderson's man, the third team goalkeeping coach/ bottle washer/lavatory attendant as the new manager?

2) What happened to make you realise Rovers fans were actually right to protest?

3)Who and what prevented you from publicly acknowledging your new opinion and admitting your previous mistake( indeed journalistic howler)...that these were fans who were simply protesting to try and save their club?

Jeremy Paxman's Blue and White Army

Nearly Happened http://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/readingfc/articles/2012/01/27/56730-show-us-the-money--reading-fans?mode=print The FA's favourite agent was helping out. Also mentioned in the Agents Rovers and Cricket loving Owners book.

At the time think NewAgnew was at sky so would have been obliged to say it was a good move if it happened before selective amnesia set in.

[Muddboy]

I went last night and I think a draw was probably a fair result. We gifted them two goals from open play and the pen was harsh to say the least.

It was hard to tell who was the home team for much of the game, such was the confidence running through the side. I think Watford were surprised how much we were up for it.

Robbo had hardly anything to do all night (Almunia was definitely the busier keeper).

Defensively, we coped fairly well. I thought Kane started the game very well but faded after half time and was caught out on more than a few occasions. Killa and Keane weren't particularly convincing and Killa's long hoofs up the pitch showed a complete lack of creativity and/or confidence. Spurr was massively exposed without a winger playing in front of him for much of the game and that showed in his lack of drive to support our attacks.

Midfield was very good, I thought. I love Evans' approach and the bite that he brings to the middle. Williamson was fairly steadly but still mucks around on the ball for too long. Conway was a real thorn in Watford's side all night and Dunny was excellent – marshaling the troops, being creative and giving us a some real attacking drive when the ball was on the floor.

Gestede was immense and got his head on to everything that came his way. Yes, we were a bit too direct at times, but it was clearly a weakness that we'd recognised in Watford. They were very poor aerially and Almunia shat his pants everytime the ball was lofted into the area. That was a weakness Bowyer was right to exploit.

I think we've got the makings of a very impressive team for next season and I hope Bowyer is given the chance to complete the job he's started.

When I compare the Rovers teams that were smashed 4-0 at Watford last season and that drew 3-3 last night, it's clear that Bowyer has really turned things around and put together a team that has the potential to really go places. I couldn't have said that about the team that capitulated and looked completely disinterested last time I was at Vicarage Road...

[DE.]

Once again descend into a circus? We still are, aren't we? I thought I was the negative one DE.

What you are arguing here, is that we have to stick with what we have because Venky's won't go about their job properly. What you should be doing - IMO - is arguing what the right thing to do is. Don't fall into this den of mediocrity ( can't believe it's me saying this). For me, I would already be taking advice on potential managerial candidates. I would be talking to them, finding out where they think they could take us, what money they would need, how they like to play their football, how ambitious they are, what they feel about working at BRFC etc, etc, - all with the intention of making an approach for them in the summer if the right man could be found and was willing to come.

I know that's unlikely to happen, not impossible but unlikely. As fans isn't that what we should be expecting to happen as a matter of course? Jeez, if we start arguing that we're better to leave things alone because of fear, we might as well just take up origami on a Saturday afternoon.

I wouldn't describe us as a circus this season, just a poorly run club. We have a rookie manager, we make worrying financial losses, we have no worthwhile boardroom structure - but we plod on despite this and the owners are keeping quiet. Shebby being removed from the spotlight has helped, too, and we've actually kept the same manager for the entire season. The club may be run badly but at the very least we've had a stable (sorry Al!) base for most of the season.

There's nothing wrong with what you say in regards to how the managerial approach should work, but that should have been done in the summer and wasn't. Realistically I see no reason to assume or expect Venky's to make a good appointment and I would need evidence to support their ability to do so before I was comfortable about the removal of Bowyer. I don't think it's enough to just hope they do things right this time despite them never doing so before.

My opinion is that there is a far higher chance of us failing than succeeding if we sack Bowyer. Your opinion seems to be (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!) that even if there is a small chance Venky's could make the right choice in the event of us needing a new manager we should support the removal of Bowyer based solely on this unlikely hope. It's not enough for me. I genuinely do fear the consequences of allowing Venky's another chance to plunge the club into turmoil, and I make no apologies for that. I also think Bowyer deserves another season with a settled squad (plus a few additions in the summer) to have a crack at the playoffs. For me one season is simply not enough, and sacking a manager every season if they don't get us into the playoffs is a dangerous precedent to set. If we were near the relegation places I would concede that a change may be necessary, but we're comfortably mid table and have been in and around the playoffs for most of the season. We haven't quite made it this season but I'm of the opinion Bowyer deserves at least one more season to get us into that place, especially as I cannot trust the owners to bring in a better manager should he be removed. I think with that in mind it would be impossible for me to agree that Bowyer should be sacked, as it'd go against my rational thought process.

[thenodrog]

That may be, but what's the point? None of us are choosing the manager, should Bowyer get the boot.

a. I rem the excitement from some when Ince was named manager. It was a disaster as I predicted it would be.

b. I rem the excitement from a number on here when Allardyce was sacked and Kean brought in. It was an unmitigated disaster also as I predicted but which may well turn out to be the main reason for the death of the club.

Do you want that to risk all that happening again? **

If you believe that there is a better manager out there who is keen to manage us under the Venkymob and working with severe financial constraints then name him as a possibility / suggestion. Until then any opinion to bin off the relatively safe hands of Gary Bowyer is a worthless one.

** just as an aside cos I cant be bothered looking back but what were your opinions on a & b K-Hod?

[thenodrog]

Post these questions...

Given that you famously berated Rovers fans for their protests against Steve Kean,....

1) What would you have done if this had been going on at Everton? i.e. new owners came in, sacked Moyes and appointed, Anderson's man, the third team goalkeeping coach/ bottle washer/lavatory attendant as the new manager?

2) What happened to make you realise Rovers fans were actually right to protest?

3)Who and what prevented you from publicly acknowledging your new opinion and admitting your previous mistake( indeed journalistic howler)...that these were fans who were simply protesting to try and save their club?

Jeremy Paxman's Blue and White Army

Be interesting to see how the press will react to and report the growing clamour to pot Moyes by the MU 'faithful' wont it?

Moyes famously criticised us and reckoned to leave at HT when we played Bolton and the crowd called for Kean out etc. Now he is telling the United fans to blame him!!! http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26742897 How does that work exactly?

I trust we will all draw comparisons and contribute in the national press and media as BRFC supporters to the events unravelling at OT. Revenge is a dish best served cold isnt it.

btw Wonder if the plastics will hire an invisible plane? They are even turning on SAF now!! Oh Joy!!!!!!

[jim mk2]

I went last night a

Very good post.

We've also come from behind in the past 2 games, which has been fairly unusual for us over the past few seasons.

If we can get all the players fit, keep the existing squad and strengthen here and there we might be OK next season.

I also note Best has found his goalscoring form now he's playing regularly - perhaps he should be retained in case Rhodes leaves.

On the Moyes note, I liked his Everton side but found his comments about Kean disappointing.

However if I were the Rovers owners I'd be watching events at OT carefully - and be straight on the phone to Moyes if he gets the sack.

[Tom]

Whilst people compare this to last seasons capitulation at Watford to show how far we've come its worth noting that just a month ago we did the exact same at Bolton.

We seem to have a mini awful run followed by a really good one, let's hope we can continue it and get a win at weekend then against Brighton

[thenodrog]

However if I were the Rovers owners I'd be watching events at OT carefully - and be straight on the phone to Moyes if he gets the sack.

If Moyes gets the sack they should be ringing him to buy the bloody club not manage it!!! .... he'll be able to afford it!

[den]

My opinion is that there is a far higher chance of us failing than succeeding if we sack Bowyer. Your opinion seems to be (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!) that even if there is a small chance Venky's could make the right choice in the event of us needing a new manager we should support the removal of Bowyer based solely on this unlikely hope.

No that isn't what I think. I'm saying that if we believe that Bowyer isn't the man for us, then I would like the club to be proactive in finding a better manager. If they can find the right man and he's willing to come, then replace Bowyer with the new manager. If we can't find who we want then Bowyer stays. It's what clubs do.

I'm sure your view is that you wouldn't want that to happen because of a fear of getting someone worse. There's a big difference there. Bottom line for me is that if the judgement is that a manager isn't the right man for a club, he has to go. Simple as that really. It's how you go through the process of replacing him that's important.