[Archived] Brum Away

[DE.]

Claiming teams are good on paper or based on cherry picking individual results out of context is garbage though, DE, and rather cowardly IMO. Bowyer has been doing both all season.

Which do you think reflects more on Yeovil's standing as a team, and therefore the fans realistic expectations: the odd freak result or their league position after 43 league games (bottom)? There was no mention that Huddersfield put 5 past them, or Middlesbrough and Barnsley, 4.

The league table doesn't lie. Yeovil are a League One team having their day in the sun, and Rovers are one or two results (against such teams) away from the play-offs.

It's how close Bowyer has got that is keeping him in post. Some have said finishing 7th or 21st makes little difference.

It does to Bowyer.

Do I have to bold the bits where I've said it's a bad result? For goodness sake. It's hardly cowardly to point out they've got some decent away results recently, it's just a fact. I never said that meant it was OK to draw against them nor did I ever call them a good team, which somehow you've concluded is my opinion despite my repeated assertions to the contrary.

The results I picked were all from the previous month, so hardly cherry picked. They're perfectly relevant and contextual so I'm not sure why you're acting as if I've picked a bunch of results from months ago.

[Proudtobeblue&white]

I don't think in general we are precious, the fans on here are passionate.....I haven't looked at the numbers of members on this site, but I know many people who have stopped going, and the empty spaces speak volumes. Not everyone on here is vocal, some just look. I believe we could all squeeze into a room, and with the odd exception, not end up fighting!

[Stuart]

Do I have to bold the bits where I've said it's a bad result? For goodness sake. It's hardly cowardly to point out they've got some decent away results recently, it's just a fact. I never said that meant it was OK to draw against them nor did I ever call them a good team, which somehow you've concluded is my opinion despite my repeated assertions to the contrary.

The results I picked were all from the previous month, so hardly cherry picked. They're perfectly relevant and contextual so I'm not sure why you're acting as if I've picked a bunch of results from months ago.

I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about Bowyer. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[thenodrog]

Are you a Rhino?

I have a customer who calls me that. He reckons I have a thick skin and charge a lot.

[thenodrog]

If Robbos comment is true that they were told to protect the one point rather than go for three towards the end of the match, when one point is no use to us at all, then you can dress it whichever way you like but in my opinion, Bowyer's final nail went in right then.

'Final nail' for a manager who has moved the club forward in difficult conditions!! Either you are a very hard taskmaster, you have a poor memory, you weren't at the match or you are just plain stupid. I'm sure it's not the latter.

[Willie Eckerslike]

'Final nail' for a manager who has moved the club forward in difficult conditions!! Either you are a very hard taskmaster, you have a poor memory, you weren't at the match or you are just plain stupid. I'm sure it's not the latter.

I wasn't at the match as I'm on holiday in the US ( hence the 8 hour time difference and strange posting times). I was at the Bolton away match and the Bournemouth home matches, however, which were close to Bowyer's final nail ( I won't mention the game in between those as Bowyer was simply out-thought by a better manager in that one).

Whether I was at the Yeovil game or not, if our manager deliberately held back from going for three points against a bottom three team at home when we needed a win, he isn't the right man and doesn't have the right mindset for me.

I respect others' views that they prefer the devil we know but I cannot see how Bowyer is going to magically acquire the skills he needs to get better results next season. He hasn't worked alongside a good manager to learn from, he hasn't got anyone with him now to learn from and he hasn't recently played under someone he could have learned from.

If we keep him I expect a similar season next time round and even though I will probably renew my ST, it will be more out of habit and the social side of pre-match than any expectation that I will be looking forward to 3pm each Saturday and 90 minutes of entertaining football.

[Blueandwhitemike]

Claiming teams are good on paper or based on cherry picking individual results out of context is garbage though, DE, and rather cowardly IMO. Bowyer has been doing both all season.

Which do you think reflects more on Yeovil's standing as a team, and therefore the fans realistic expectations: the odd freak result or their league position after 43 league games (bottom)? There was no mention that Huddersfield put 5 past them, or Middlesbrough and Barnsley, 4.

The league table doesn't lie. Yeovil are a League One team having their day in the sun, and Rovers are one or two results (against such teams) away from the play-offs.

It's how close Bowyer has got that is keeping him in post. Some have said finishing 7th or 21st makes little difference.

It does to Bowyer.

Facts can be presented in many different ways. Stuart, the way you are presenting them are in the most negative way possible IMO. The Yeovil result was desperately disappointing, yes but DE supplied a bit of perspective.

What do you think Brighton think of their result against Blackpool? I think it was even worse than ours, and looks like it really might cost them the play offs.

[Stuart]

Facts can be presented in many different ways. Stuart, the way you are presenting them are in the most negative way possible IMO. The Yeovil result was desperately disappointing, yes but DE supplied a bit of perspective.

What do you think Brighton think of their result against Blackpool? I think it was even worse than ours, and looks like it really might cost them the play offs.

What did you think Missing the point. Cherry picking opposing teams' individual games is NOT the right thing to do. Bowyer has done that on several occasions to excuse bad performances/results.

The Yeovil result was disappointing, the performance inexcusable.

[thenodrog]

)

I respect others' views that they prefer the devil we know but I cannot see how Bowyer is going to magically acquire the skills he needs to get better results next season. He hasn't worked alongside a good manager to learn from, he hasn't got anyone with him now to learn from and he hasn't recently played under someone he could have learnned from.

As I and one or two others are urging he should bring in an assistant who is technically strong.

Bowyer like all managers has positives and negatives, he appears to have plenty ofpositives and so its up to him to minimise the negatives

[Black Burn]

I respect others' views that they prefer the devil we know but I cannot see how Bowyer is going to magically acquire the skills he needs to get better results next season. He hasn't worked alongside a good manager to learn from, he hasn't got anyone with him now to learn from and he hasn't recently played under someone he could have learned from.

If we keep him I expect a similar season next time round and even though I will probably renew my ST, it will be more out of habit and the social side of pre-match than any expectation that I will be looking forward to 3pm each Saturday and 90 minutes of entertaining football.

Bowyer's dad was a great manager at Nottingham Forest, and if I recall he learned a lot under Nigel Clough. He also has 7 or 8 years of coaching the youth team to add onto his experience.

Plus, isn't Bowyer getting better results already? In the first half of the season, we were dismal, our away form was downright atrocious. After January, our form just turned around and we managed to improve our horrible away form drastically, to the point that we were breathing down the necks of our playoff rivals. 10-match unbeaten streak, the longest in the Championship or in recent Rovers history. Isn't the improvement evidence that he has at least improved in the second half of the season?

Now imagine how much higher he can progress with a second season, especially if he keeps his 4-4-2 formation with Jordan Rhodes and Rudy Gestede up front. It's no coincidence our form went up when Bowyer brought Gestede in and switched to 4-4-2. It also shows that he's learning, doesn't it?

[DE.]

I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about Bowyer. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

OK, calling him cowardly is still wrong though. If he was a coward he never would have taken the job on in the first place. Despite what some on here profess this was not an easy task to take on at all. A lot of short memories, forgetful of how dire we had become after multiple seasons of destabilisation and the recruitment of a large group of mercenaries who did not give a toss about the club. The reason Bowyer has had to bring in 19 players (as den so often points out!) is precisely because so many poor players were brought into the club. The fact we haven't been able to shift a large number of them speaks volumes as to how bad our recruitment policy has been over the past few years.

To be honest I don't listen to Bowyer's after match interviews. He mostly repeats the same stuff anyway. I'm more interested in our progress as a team and in the league, which I find perfectly acceptable at this point in time.

[Stuart]

OK, calling him cowardly is still wrong though. If he was a coward he never would have taken the job on in the first place. Despite what some on here profess this was not an easy task to take on at all. A lot of short memories, forgetful of how dire we had become after multiple seasons of destabilisation and the recruitment of a large group of mercenaries who did not give a toss about the club. The reason Bowyer has had to bring in 19 players (as den so often points out!) is precisely because so many poor players were brought into the club. The fact we haven't been able to shift a large number of them speaks volumes as to how bad our recruitment policy has been over the past few years.

To be honest I don't listen to Bowyer's after match interviews. He mostly repeats the same stuff anyway. I'm more interested in our progress as a team and in the league, which I find perfectly acceptable at this point in time.

Ah, I see why we don't share the same opinion on them then.

[Black Burn]

Ah, I see why we don't share the same opinion on them then.

DE actually reads them instead of listening to them.

[Willie Eckerslike]

Black Burn, if "getting better results" includes turning winning positions into draws late in the game (which has happened more than once recently) and settling for a draw with Yeovil, then I'm not interested in wonderful unbeaten runs. If they consist mainly of draws they aren't much good to a side that wants to get promoted.

Let us not forget that prior to this unbeaten run we had three awful results on the bounce, including two of the least inspiring performances I have witnessed from a Rovers team in the last few years ( Bolton away, Bournemouth home).

[Black Burn]

Black Burn, if "getting better results" includes turning winning positions into draws late in the game (which has happened more than once recently) and settling for a draw with Yeovil, then I'm not interested in wonderful unbeaten runs. If they consist mainly of draws they aren't much good to a side that wants to get promoted.

Let us not forget that prior to this unbeaten run we had three awful results on the bounce, including two of the least inspiring performances I have witnessed from a Rovers team in the last few years ( Bolton away, Bournemouth home).

Getting draws is an improvement over losing all those away games, wouldn't you agree? The fact that we could even get into winning positions in the first place is a remarkable improvement over always going behind during the first half of the season.

Or would you rather we remain in losing positions to maintain the illusion that we aren't doing better at all?

Edit: just to put things into a little perspective.

This was our position in the first half of the season. We were 13th, with 31 points, 8 wins, 7 draws and 8 losses, a goal difference of 1.

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/league-championship/2013-2014/custom-table

This is our position now, in the second half of the season. We are 10th, with 64 points. In other words, we picked up 33 points in 21 games, 2 points more than our first 23 games. We have 8 wins, 9 draws and 4 losses, and our goal difference increased to 5. And this is not counting the last 2 games we've played. Even if we lose both of them, we would still have done better than the first half of the season.

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/championship/table

Is that not an improvement to you? Or would you rather continue to have 8 wins, 7 draws and 6 losses instead?

[JAL]

JAL hope you don't mind me saying so but your constant sniping at Lowe illustrates either a hidden agenda or more likely a terribly juvenile mentality.

Are you suggesting turn a blind eye ?

If Jason is down as being a defensive midfielder then is there anything wrong in focusing on this part of his game.

Thought it was an interesting observation especially for those suggesting that he should play right back but must question, is the coaching that Jason's receiving, good enough to improve his game or is it him, because it aint working, whatever it is.

[Mike E]

Are you suggesting turn a blind eye ?

If Jason is down as being a defensive midfielder then is there anything wrong in focusing on this part of his game.

Thought it was an interesting observation especially for those suggesting that he should play right back but must question, is the coaching that Jason's receiving, good enough to improve his game or is it him, because it aint working, whatever it is.

There's nothing wrong with that at all. But I recall many of your posts sniping at his inability to attack or play incisive passes. Things that even the very best defensive midfielder I've seen (Claude Makelele) wasn't very good at either (no, I'm not comparing the 2, I'm just saying it's the nature of his position).

My opinion is that Lowe is athletic, but a rubbish in the tackle. He CAN do it, but not in such a manner as to have opponents worry about him much. That's why I (and others, I assume) think he'd be better suited to RB, a position that's more about athleticism, covering your man and (generally) only putting the tackle in when you've forced your opponent to stick in one place (down the touchline) so you can tackle with your best foot. In CM with the freedom of the park, he doesn't have the confidence to tackle, but only block.

[JAL]

Lowes in a right back position when he allows the cross to come in, which asks, why play him there if thats the kind of performance he puts in by allowing his opponent to do whatever they please with the ball. As a centre half I wouldnt have much confidence in him.

[Mike E]

'In a right back position' and 'playing at right back' are not the same. In the first scenario, I'd be asking where the actual rb was.

[JAL]

'In a right back position' and 'playing at right back' are not the same. In the first scenario, I'd be asking where the actual rb was.

Not too bothered about where the right back was as Lowe was there and it was he who had the opportunity to block the cross.

[Willie Eckerslike]

Getting draws is an improvement over losing all those away games, wouldn't you agree? The fact that we could even get into winning positions in the first place is a remarkable improvement over always going behind during the first half of the season.

Or would you rather we remain in losing positions to maintain the illusion that we aren't doing better at all?

Edit: just to put things into a little perspective.

This was our position in the first half of the season. We were 13th, with 31 points, 8 wins, 7 draws and 8 losses, a goal difference of 1.

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/league-championship/2013-2014/custom-table

This is our position now, in the second half of the season. We are 10th, with 64 points. In other words, we picked up 33 points in 21 games, 2 points more than our first 23 games. We have 8 wins, 9 draws and 4 losses, and our goal difference increased to 5. And this is not counting the last 2 games we've played. Even if we lose both of them, we would still have done better than the first half of the season.

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/championship/table

Is that not an improvement to you? Or would you rather continue to have 8 wins, 7 draws and 6 losses instead?

I'd rather have a manager in place who tries to win and knows how to close out a game from a dominant position. That's where my original point started off.

I'm not too bothered if Bowyer has done marginally better and achieved an astonishing +5 goal diff in the second half of the season (compare that to the majority of teams in the top six).

We haven't been in the top six at any point all season and if we keep Bowyer in charge we probably won't next season either as he doesn't have the right skills and isn't going to learn them on his summer holidays.

[JAL]

'In a right back position' and 'playing at right back' are not the same. In the first scenario, I'd be asking where the actual rb was.

Its not that important where the right back was as there was a Rovers player there......watching.

[Black Burn]

I'd rather have a manager in place who tries to win and knows how to close out a game from a dominant position. That's where my original point started off.

I'm not too bothered if Bowyer has done marginally better and achieved an astonishing +5 goal diff in the second half of the season (compare that to the majority of teams in the top six).

We haven't been in the top six at any point all season and if we keep Bowyer in charge we probably won't next season either as he doesn't have the right skills and isn't going to learn them on his summer holidays.

You said we didn't improve at all. I argue that we did. That's all.

I'm not saying Bowyer will take us up or get us promoted, I have no idea where you got that from. However, I pointed out that he is improving, albeit slowly, so he might improve in his second season. You think he doesn't have the right skills or won't learn them, but from our improvement in the second half, I would argue that he is learning. If he steadily improves, who knows?

Then again, this is all conjecture and guesses, and we will never know until next season finishes.

[JAL]

You said we didn't improve at all. I argue that we did. That's all.

I'm not saying Bowyer will take us up or get us promoted, I have no idea where you got that from. However, I pointed out that he is improving, albeit slowly, so he might improve in his second season. You think he doesn't have the right skills or won't learn them, but from our improvement in the second half, I would argue that he is learning. If he steadily improves, who knows?

Then again, this is all conjecture and guesses, and we will never know until next season finishes.

If Bowyer had learnt anything he wouldnt have hired or played Luke Varney but then did he hire him in the first place ?

[Black Burn]

If Bowyer had learnt anything he wouldnt have hired or played Luke Varney but then did he hire him in the first place ?

After sending Goodwillie, Best and Campbell out on loan, he needed a third striker to play his 4-4-2. That was where Varney came in. He's hardworking, he plays his heart out - you can't deny that.

Of course, Bowyer could have chosen better, but I suspect those better strikers wouldn't agree to come in as a sub, or as third choice strikers. Varney, on the other hand, isn't just a striker, he can also play on the right wing, hence Bowyer picked him for the options he offered. The problem is that Varney isn't that good, which is probably why most people don't like him, but I see him playing his heart out every match when he comes on.