[Archived] Great Expectations (Beyond Back or Sack)

[Majiball]

This should be pinned up at Brockhall. Our 'brittleness' is cos too many of our squad are ball watchers and can't be bothered tracking back when the other team is in possession! That is one of the few improvements necessary for next season. Those old enough will remember the fantastic work ethic of the entire squad and especially Ripley and Wilcox. The defensive capability of Alan Shearer during open play and especially at set pieces was exemplary too.

Habits on the pitch during a match are habits developed on the training ground, as you well know. You cited Barca, Guardiola and Villanova (RIP) had the 6 second rule. You lose the ball in training and you have 6 seconds to win it back.

So despite being worried by relegation to the 1st Div at one point last spring you see no need to change the playing staff? How risky would that have been to go through another season with those over paid flakes plodding around just going through the motions every saturday? It's quite obvious that Bowyer drew a line under some players and wrote them off and fortunately the Rao's backed him to replace them.

As such I believe that he has done a good job and but for the spectre of FFP would show a profit on his transfer dealings.

But steve 'useless' Kean had the same team 2nd, It was Berg and Appleton who dragged us down there. One could surmise that said same team was capable of better than they showed last year. I even believe GB did quite well with them in his 1st stint as well. Perhaps it then was the man leading the team at the time more so than the team itself who were responsible for our lowly position last year?

[Baz]

Im not having a go at anyone but we had a very experienced and very well paid goalkeeper coming back, so it understandable why we didn't go get another keeper. Especially when you consider that one of the young backup options had done well the season before. If the intention was to get rid of our number one keeper when he returned then fair enough.

For all his problems/flaws how many keepers in the championship are better than our first choice keeper. The unfortunate issue was that our young keeper lost his form completely even with Bowyer giving him time to regain it.

Two things here, it was pointed out Kean wasnt up to it before the end of last season.

Secondly, knowing Robbo was still a way off being fit, why bring in a risky signing like Eastwood? Why not go for an experienced stopper on loan?

[Majiball]

In terms of net spend he's actually turned a slight profit in terms of transfer dealings and most likely reduced our wage bill by a fair amount when looking directly at the ins and outs. Luxury certainly isn't all it's cracked up to be.

This year it will be the paying off of contracts that really kills our finances. I can't for one second believe the likes of Murphy and Gomes, both on a reputed +30K a week or +1.5M, will have accepted huge deductions on those figures, during negotiations. Even the loan players sent out won't be having their wages paid in full, again I do not for one second believe Wed are paying all of Bests +30K a week. We will have saved money but I cannot see it being huge savings.

[Baz]

Each and every time Bowyer has spent money on transfer fees he's been absolutely meticulous and acted as if its his own money. Without exception the lads he has paid money for have been top notch and exceptional value for money.

Absolute twaddle.

Songoo

Marrow

Judge

Feeney

Dabo

Eastwood

Varney

Taylor

DJ

Thats 9 off the top of my head who he has signed who have cost BRFC money, without very much in return.

[Majiball]

Two things here, it was pointed out Kean wasnt up to it before the end of last season.

Secondly, knowing Robbo was still a way off being fit, why bring in a risky signing like Eastwood? Why not go for an experienced stopper on loan?

He was signed on the recommendation of Keeley our GK coach. I would agree that a loan was more prudent.

[Rover_Shaun]

Absolute twaddle.

Songoo

Marrow

Judge

Feeney

Dabo

Eastwood

Varney

Taylor

DJ

Thats 9 off the top of my head who he has signed who have cost BRFC money, without very much in return.

I assumed he was conveniently talking about players who were signed for a fee.

The same 'blind spot' to wages is applied when talking about the budget he has used this season.

[patrickvalery]

Absolute twaddle.

Songoo

Marrow

Judge

Feeney

Dabo

Eastwood

Varney

Taylor

DJ

Thats 9 off the top of my head who he has signed who have cost BRFC money, without very much in return.

I said "Each and every time Bowyer has spent money on transfer fees". You even quoted it Baz.

3 of those you mention were loans and the rest were freebies or unattached.

If you can argue that Bowyer has been reckless when spending transfer fees on Marshall, Cairney, Gestede and Conway then you're a better man than me.

I assumed he was conveniently talking about players who were signed for a fee.

The same 'blind spot' to wages is applied when talking about the budget he has used this season.

Conveniently?

Lets play a little game shall we? You give me a player we have loaned in who has, as you rightly say, cost us money on wages. And i'll give you one we've loaned out to cover the cost.

[Rover_Shaun]

Loans?? I was talking about players we have signing permanenlty. They may be free transfers but they will all be on wages we can dream of

Marrow, Judge, Songo'o all cost £££££ in wages. Was 'Gaz' meticulous about signing them on decent contracts then hardly using them?

They were all summer panic buys before he stopped his head wobbling and tried to target players who would actually improve the team.

[patrickvalery]

You are assuming the other club is footing the wage bill?

The moon is rock not cheese

That works both ways Shaun. I am sure you aren't privy to the financial workings of every contract at the club.

Listen, i'm not niaive enough to think the likes of Sheffield Wednesday are footing the bill for 100% of Best's wages for example. But they'll be paying something and it all adds up.

Plus, i hear the likes of Judge, Marrow and Sonogo being used as examples of players Bowyer has been 'fortunate' to sign. We loaned them out to other clubs before the season even ended.

And don't you dare shatter my dream about the moon you heartless sod!

[davulsukur]

Loans?? I was talking about players we have signing permanenlty. They may be free transfers but they will all be on wages we can dream of

 

 

 

Marrow, Judge, Songo'o all cost £££££ in wages. Was 'Gaz' meticulous about signing them on decent contracts then hardly using them?

 

They were all summer panic buys before he stopped his head wobbling and tried to target players who would actually improve the team.

How do you know they are on decent wages? I can't imagine we handed out big contracts to them, its not like many (if any) other championship clubs would be after them.

[Majiball]

Do wages etc, not count anymore in transfers in? They all cost money somehow and it all adds up, so surely they are all then money spent. We wouldn't have spent it at all if they hadn't signed.

Have no fear the moon is still made of cheese, every sane man knows that, lol.

Songoo
Marrow
Judge
Feeney
Dabo
Eastwood
Varney
Taylor
DJ

Makes 9 signings so lets be very conservative and say an average of 5K a week (DJ is far from cheap). So 9 * 5 = 45K a week, * 52 = 2.34M a year. I won't include bonuses etc ie signing on fees. Last season we were losing that a month. We sell say 13K season tickets at a £250.00 pound average, or 3.25M quids worth. so said signings wages only probably cost 70% roughly of our total season ticket sales.

[Rover_Shaun]

Judge, Marrow and Songo'o as well as the great Brian Dabo are all bizarre signings.

He did make two great signings in Gestede and Cairney. A very signing in Spurr and good signings in Marshall and Evans, thought the jury is out on both as they both became better players during long injuries (the Rochina/Kalanic effect)

At the end of the day we had a very high incomming of permanent players at all levels and probably 25% made the first XI better.

And still we have issues 3 departments. GK, Defence and midifield

[patrickvalery]

Loans?? I was talking about players we have signing permanenlty. They may be free transfers but they will all be on wages we can dream of

Marrow, Judge, Songo'o all cost £££££ in wages. Was 'Gaz' meticulous about signing them on decent contracts then hardly using them?

They were all summer panic buys before he stopped his head wobbling and tried to target players who would actually improve the team.

Not sure who said it now, but it was suggested Judge and Marrow were brought in because they were allies of Bowyer. People who's belief might just rub off on the other lads in the dressing room. Not a bad move by a rookie manager imo. Hell, even Mourinho did it when he rocked up at Chelsea. Paolo Ferrera and Ricardo Carvalho were his first signings i believe. Its just they cost approx £50-60m and ours cost bugger all. Again, not a bad move considering our crippling finances i'd say.

[Baz]

So hang on...the money spent on wages / signing on fees / agents for free transfers doesn't count towards your statement?

Talk about a twisted argument.

Besides which Id question how top notch and exceptional value for money some of the signings will eventually prove to be. Corry Evans for example has a Grella feeling about his fitness.

[patrickvalery]

So hang on...the money spent on wages / signing on fees / agents for free transfers doesn't count towards your statement?

Talk about a twisted argument.

Besides which Id question how top notch and exceptional value for money some of the signings will eventually prove to be. Corry Evans for example has a Grella feeling about his fitness.

See the above few posts Baz. I'll happily play the game with you if you like.

Your opinion of the bought and paid for players are your own and you're perfectly entitled to them. No argument from me.

Its just that my opinion is that Gestede at £300k is exceptional value and has therefore has been a top notch signing. Conway at £600k has been exceptional value and therefore has been a top notch signing. Cairney at £600k has been exceptional value and therefore has been a top notch signing. Evans and Marshall both had unfortunate injuries which blighted their season. But, and again its only my opinion, an outlay of £1.5m looks like money well spent on both. Marshall was starting to look very sharp for us and Evans made a big difference in the run in.

You disagree. Thats fine. No problem.

[Rover_Shaun]

How do you know they are on decent wages? I can't imagine we handed out big contracts to them, its not like many (if any) other championship clubs would be after them.

All footballers are on decent wages. We're not talking Rooney but the average championship wage when added up over the duration of a contract is a drain on resources for no improvement whatsoever. Only Bowyer thought donkeys like Judge, Marrow and Songo'o where going to improve the team.

None were signed on 1 year deals where they??? Marrow for example was signed from a Prem club having played at this level so he will be on a decent championship wage in order to move down

As you say there as assumptions on both sides.

[Baz]

See the above few posts Baz. I'll happily play the game with you if you like.

Your opinion of the bought and paid for players are your own and you're perfectly entitled to them. No argument from me.

Its just that my opinion is that Gestede at £300k is exceptional value and has therefore has been a top notch signing. Conway at £600k has been exceptional value and therefore has been a top notch signing. Cairney at £600k has been exceptional value and therefore has been a top notch signing. Evans and Marshall both had unfortunate injuries which blighted their season. But, and agains its only my opinion, an outlay of £1.5m looks like money well spent on both. Marshall was starting to look very sharp for us and Evans made a big difference in the run in.

You disagree. Thats fine. No problem.

Ok seeing you now agree your first statement was twaddle, we'll move on. :-)

[Rover_Shaun]

If Bowyer needed allies then I am even more sure he isn't the right man.

Mourinho signed the two players you mentioned because they were class international performers who he thought would and in the end did win him things. The comparison between them and two players who had played under Bowyer at youth level years earlier is rather desperate. When your finances are crippling every penny counts and you don't just sign familiar deadlegs because your not sure your strong enough for the job

[patrickvalery]

All footballers are on decent wages. We're not talking Rooney but the average championship wage when added up over the duration of a contract is a drain on resources for no improvement whatsoever. Only Bowyer thought donkeys like Judge, Marrow and Songo'o where going to improve the team.

None were signed on 1 year deals where they??? Marrow for example was signed from a Prem club having played at this level so he will be on a decent championship wage in order to move down

As you say there as assumptions on both sides.

I thought that Marrow had been released. Either way, under the genius of Holloway, even some of Palaces sumemr signings didn't even make the 25 man PL squad! Marrow was very much surplus to requirements and i'd be pretty certain his wages will be league one level.

Ok seeing you now agree your first statement was twaddle, we'll move on. :-)

Hmmm, i'm not sure you have understood me Baz. I absolutely stand by my first statement. IMO, all Bowyers transfers where a fee has been paid look excpetional value and top drawer for this division.

If Bowyer needed allies then I am even more sure he isn't the right man.

Mourinho signed the two players you mentioned because they were class international performers who he thought would and in the end did win him things. The comparison between them and two players who had played under Bowyer at youth level years earlier is rather desperate. When your finances are crippling every penny counts and you don't just sign familiar deadlegs because your not sure your strong enough for the job

Not in the slightest. Its all relative. You don't believe that Mourinho could have signed the same quality elsewhere? The previous association at Porto was a factor in deciding to sign them. I don't know why you're even arguing it. It happens across football in every country in every division. Its not an admission of weakness on Bowyer or any other managers part. Its about having the dressing room on your side.

[Rover_Shaun]

Marrow was very much surplus to requirements and i'd be pretty certain his wages will be league one level.

Marrow was signed permanently by championship palace from premiership blackburn after a 17 game loan. He was then signed permanently and made 10 appearances for palace. He was then re-signed by championship blackburn after Palace gained promotion to the premierleague. Rovers had to convince him to give up what was probably his dream to play in the premiership at least once. To assume he was on league 1 wages at Palace is an gigantic assumption even Sir Edward Hilary couldn't summit

Hmmm, i'm not sure you have understood me Baz. I absolutely stand by my first statement. IMO, all Bowyers transfers where a fee has been paid look excpetional value and top drawer for this division.

Gestede and Cairney yes. The jury is still out on Evans and Marshal

And Mourinho signed former players he knew were better than the club had. Bowyer signed former youth players that everyone else knew were worse then we had

One was good management and creating a position of strength the other bizarre and desperate as the players coming in were known to be inferior even within the current squad at that time

[Baz]

Hmmm, i'm not sure you have understood me Baz. I absolutely stand by my first statement. IMO, all Bowyers transfers where a fee has been paid look excpetional value and top drawer for this division.

I did, i just got bored of picking holes in your statement, you may have well have said all Bowyers signings apart from those made on a Thursday have been exceptional if your only counting some of them (accepting that a free transfer is a slightly more mainstream way of division). To me money is money, so money on wages is the same as money on transfer fees. You obviously have a totally different opinion PV.

[patrickvalery]

I did, i just got bored of picking holes in your statement, you may have well have said all Bowyers signings apart from those made on a Thursday have been exceptional if your only counting some of them (accepting that a free transfer is a slightly more mainstream way of division). To me money is money, so money on wages is the same as money on transfer fees. You obviously have a totally different opinion PV.

My point was any money he has spent has been spent wisely. Anything over and above that, be it loans or free transfers were accounted for by outgoing players. Thats not me saying every incoming player has been top drawer is it? I happen to think Feeney, Varney, Dabo, Marrow and possibly Taylor have been poor signings.

It's not my fault that i make a statement about all bought and paid for signings and you retort with a list of loans and freebies Baz.

[Baz]

My point was any money he has spent has been spent wisely. Anything over and above that, be it loans or free transfers were accounted for by outgoing players. Thats not me saying every incoming player has been top drawer is it? I happen to think Feeney, Varney, Dabo, Marrow and possibly Taylor have been poor signings.

It's not my fault that i make a statement about all bought and paid for signings and you retort with a list of loans and freebies Baz.

And my point is that the free signings and loan players is that they cost money, and therefore should be in your list of players signed.

Lets leave it at that?

[patrickvalery]

Marrow was signed permanently by championship palace from premiership blackburn after a 17 game loan. He was then signed permanently and made 10 appearances for palace. He was then re-signed by championship blackburn after Palace gained promotion to the premierleague. Rovers had to convince him to give up what was probably his dream to play in the premiership at least once. To assume he was on league 1 wages at Palace is an gigantic assumption even Sir Edward Hilary couldn't summit

Thats an interesting quote there Shaun. I assume that was plucked from Wiki. Well what was that word you used when quoting my post? Oh yes, 'conveniently' wasn't it? Well it seems you conveniently left out the part which said his contract expired in 2013 at Palace. So when he rejoined Rovers he was out of contract.

And my point is that the free signings and loan players is that they cost money, and therefore should be in your list of players signed.

Lets leave it at that?

Why should they be when i was making a point about his prowess in signing permanant players? I fully accept that they cost money. But why discount the players who we have also loaned out?

Anyway, you're right, best leave it there.

[DE.]

Should DJ be included in a list of Bowyer's signings? Wasn't the deal agreed the previous season by Bald #3?