[Archived] B Teams

[JBiz]

Apologies if there is a thread already - couldn't see one, however sometimes I couldn't find my arse in a fog!

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/may/08/premier-league-division-b-teams-fan-commission-greg-dyke-league-three-non-eu-players

Greg Dyke's Football Association commission wants to improve the chances of the England team by developing more homegrown players. Photograph: Nick Potts/PA

Greg Dyke's Football Association commission into improving the chances of the England team by developing more homegrown players has proposed introducing a new division of Premier League B teams by 2016-17.

The proposal, a dramatic intervention in the English football pyramid that would have far reaching ramifications for the game, is one of four key recommendations made by the commission.

It has identified the "blockage" facing players between the ages of 18 and 21 as the key issue affecting the development of young English talent. In the Premier League in 2012/13, only 32% of players were qualified to play for England, reducing to 28% among the top-four clubs.

Along with introducing B teams for Premier League clubs and reforming the work permit system to reduce the number of non-EU players in the top flight, the Commission recommends a new strategic loan partnership system that would allow clubs to loan up to eight players to a singleFootball League side and retain more control over them.

The controversial B team proposal, sure to create a huge backlash from fans and some Football League clubs but supported by some Premier League sides, is one of several elements of a plan designed to improve the number and quality of homegrown players available to the national team.

Under the proposals, clubs will also be told to incrementally increase the number of players in their squad that qualify as "homegrown" – ie those trained for at least 36 months in England before their 21st birthday. By 2020/21, it recommends that the majority of the 25-man first team squad should qualify as homegrown, rather than the current eight.

Dyke has potentially set himself on a collision course with the Premier League by concluding that the recently introduced under-21 league, due to be revamped into an under-23 league, and the £340m invested in the elite player performance plan is not sufficient to produce the level of change required.

"We recognise that making changes in football is often a slow and difficult process but we urge those in the football world to consider our proposals constructively and with open minds," said Dyke. "We urge them to balance the specific, narrowly-defined concerns of their particular club or league with what will be of the most benefit to the game overall, to the development of young players and to the success of the England team."

The commission has set a target of 90 footballers playing more than 50% of minutes in the Premier League, or any of the top five leagues in Europe, by 2022, compared with 66 today. Of these, 30 should be playing in the top six teams in the Premier League, compared with 18 today. Dyke has previously set England the target of winning the World Cup in 2022.

Dyke said on Thursday that the Commission, which got off to a rocky start with a row over the diversity of its composition, was designed to address an issue that is "a significantly bigger problem in England than anywhere else". "If the trend continues we fear for the future of the England team. If this cannot be reversed a future England manager will have fewer and fewer top level English players from which to choose."

Under the plans for B teams, each Premier League side would have the option of competing in a new League Three that would sit between League Two and the Conference.

There would be promotion and relegation between the divisions but B teams would not be allowed to rise above League One or play in the FACup.

The new League Three would be initially made up of up to 10 Premier League B teams and the top 10 clubs from the Conference. Should more than 10 Premier League clubs want a B team, they would be added to the Conference Premier. The commission envisages that the Premier League clubs would make a "significant" financial settlement to the Football League in return for the right to operate B teams.

Organisations, including the Football Supporters Federation andSupporters Direct, have already said they will oppose the plans for B teams to play in the Football League.

Under the proposals to strengthen the work visa system, the commission says that new rules should be considered that limit each Premier League side to only two non-EU players. If introduced today, such a rule would have an impact on a quarter of Premier League sides, including Chelsea and Manchester City.

The report notes that only 58% of players given work permits play any football in the Premier League the following year.

Under the strategic loans partnerships, Premier League clubs would be encouraged to send coaches and exchange expertise with one or two clubs with which they were partnering.

The England manager, Roy Hodgson, one of 10 members of the panel, welcomed the proposals and said he would "strongly advocate" the findings and recommendations.

"Having worked at all levels of football, and across different cultures and countries, I have some reference points about what needs to be done in England. But I am just one voice of many who have contributed to this important study and I hope the debate that has been provoked can lead to some real developments in our game," he said.

"My undoubted focus has been on first qualifying, and subsequently, preparing my England squad and staff for the World Cup in Brazil. But we all have a responsibility when called on to answer the question, how can we provide a better platform for the young England players of the future."

Dyke said there would be a second report later in the year to cover the areas of grassroots facilities and coaching.

Among the ideas considered and discarded by the Commission was the even more radical option of allowing an England Under-21 side to compete in the Championship and allowing Premier League clubs to buy Football League sides as "feeder clubs".

The winter break, often raised as a possible means of improving England's chances, is not even mentioned.

To summarise for the skimmers, this is a scheme that wants to echo German and Spanish setups - in order to improve the national team.

My view of it is simple; Balderdash.

Lower league football has been treated with criminal negligence for as long as I could ever remember. I have never made steps to try and support my local lower league side (accy) beyond thee odd visit, but that said I am a BRFC fan.

That is not to say that I cannot give my opinion on a scheme, which in my eyes seems to punish lower league clubs even further. I also think it misses the point, and the problem this country has with football is the way youngsters are coached. What facilities do we have with the most young people in? Schools. Invest in football in schools, and you will educate (those who want it) how to play the game technically.

I know the days of under 12s playing full pitches are over, but this country still puts too much onus on competition and not enough on quality technical coaching. For me to become a fully registered level one football coach - All I'd need is one day of my time, £150 and some boots. Don't let Premier league clubs get richer by giving them a bigger shop window. Don't take away league places for teams who have earned them through quality or deserved them through idiocy.

The part I quoted and highlighted in bold is potentially the most dangerous suggestion I have read in a long time. If step one of destroying local clubs was putting more and more football on the TV. If Step two was giving 20 clubs out of 92 £100,000,000 to spunk on players WAGS -

Then step three must be the final nail, because Would you watch your club if it existed to service another?

As I say quite a lot - there are two sides to every coin.

Perhaps a balloted or voted feeder system is viable. If they made it mandatory for all clubs to have a feeder below - nobody would miss out, and the 19/20 year olds who just need competition would have important games to play. This would help clubs short of money and players also.

[chaddyrovers]

shocking idea by the FA and Greg Dyke again.

the bigger clubs always get what they want and the clubs outside the premiership are always the problem and get Sh#t on again.

on the way from work I was listening to Adrian Durham and Darren Gough show on Talksport and dont think I heard one person in favour. Also Listened to the Dyke interview on there and he didnt have at all about the facts at all. couldnt/struggle to answer the questions good enough.

here is the talksport interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCJs4oTEAAE

they need to invest more in grassroots football and provide kids between the ages of 6 to 14 with proper quality football pitches and facilities. BUT the FA only care what the big clubs and England want

hope the majority of football clubs vote no to this daft and stupid idea

[McClarky]

Hate the idea of this and don't see any benefit to anyone. Premier clubs will continue to loan out their players to other clubs so this will do nothing apart from undermine lower league football. The problem is that the top clubs hoover up youngsters who will never make it because they can afford to buy who they want. Well limit the amount of players that can come through their academies and use some of the wealth created by football to encourage other clubs to invest in their own youth without making it an uneven playing field in favour of the big clubs.

[Baz]

I think its more fundamental than B teams. When i was growing up, hoardes of kids used to play football. I hardly see any now.

B teams work in countrys where they play in semi professional leagues. In England we have 4 and the conference has several full time clubs too.

[hollowsr]

I'm currently making my way through the report but only got 2 pages in before having to post my thoughts

It quickly became clear to us that this could not be achieved without some radical and ambitious proposals to change English football and that is what we are outlining in this report. Tinkering will not be enough if we are to achieve our goal.

Seems like they purposely have gone for something "radical" (Ridiculous)

We recognise that making changes in football is often a slow and difficult process but we urge those in the football world to consider our proposals constructively and with open minds. We urge them to balance the specific, narrowly-defined concerns of their particular club or league with what will be of the most benefit to the game overall, tothe development of young English players and to the success of the England team.

This just shows the committee has no idea or care for those lower league clubs, I've never had a great fondness for the national team, I will watch the games and celebrate a good result but I would much rather success for Rovers and other teams I follow/have soft spots for, that will always give me more satisfaction than if England were to win a competition. I realise this is not true of everyone but I think a large amount of people will have similar view points.

In researching this problem in English football we identified four key obstacles which we believe need to be overcome if we are to be successful. Work is still continuing on two of them – how to improve coaching and how to increase the investment in grassroots facilities.

This is a major problem, the main way footballers in this country will get better is with the two they haven't done anything about as yet. You can set up all the leagues you want but if the coaching is rubbish nothing will change. To improve the coaching we need more investment, not sure how true it is but seen stats stating a UEFA A license in England costs at least £2500, in Germany its apparently about £1000 and Spain less than £500. It must make sure that not just those that have history in football can get involved. I did my Level 1 badge a few years ago, it cost £150 and about 3 days to do. I've never gone on to do other due to the cost implications.

Anyhow will try and read whole report before commenting further, not a good start though

Sorry just a quick one about the committee also, not a great mix of people, like with all things FA wise seems very Boys Brigade, should have got some young coaches in, some foreign managers etc. I know they have consulted lots of people but still think this would have been good to see

[yoda]

Another FA master stroke

[Blue n whites]

This might seem strange to some but As a passionate football fan, and a proud Englishman, I couldn't give a monkeys about the England national team.

[DE.]

So what happens if a B Team wins League One? They just don't get promoted and the team below them goes up as if they came first/second/?

[hollowsr]

So what happens if a B Team wins League One? They just don't get promoted and the team below them goes up as if they came first/second/?

It would seem so, however we could end up with club finishing 4th/5th/6th getting automatic. Greg Dyke was saying on Talksport that this wouldnt happen as the big clubs wouldnt dominate as they don't in Spain, rubbish argument as I could see within a few years Chelsea, Arsenal, City and Utd all having B teams at top of league 1

[Bundesburn]

Yeah, it's a culture thing and sacrificing English football culture for the sake of seeming "more continental" snacks of idiots trying to justify their employment.

The money blown on genuine living-thief Danny Mills and serial clusterf**ker Greg Dyke could have gone to much better use providing support for outreach programs at juniors levels as just one alternative.

All aboard the idiot gravy train.

[JAL]

What Greg Dyke is proposing is yet another speedier death knell to football in this country for small town teams and village teams etc.,

Playing football carries a risk and this is at a time where we as a nation to our detriment have had to become risk aversive. JAL

[perthblue02]

wrong thread

[koi]

So how will FFF be applied to the B teams? After all, a teenage player at man city will be earning more in a month than a league 2 player earns in a yr.

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[Majiball]

I cannot believe decisions like this are being made by those on the board. Football players? It's like letting kids decide how school should be. We asked 650 people already part of the problem in football what they would do to resolve said issue? Again lol.

The FA want more home-grown players in the EPL, the big clubs have desired B teams for ages. Sounds like a trade-off.

We need more coaches, better coaches and to get to more kids. Abolish the youth set-up bring it all under the FA and start in the schools, before regoinal and national centres are introduced. How many of spains coaches work in schools? Sport is marginalized in schools, few offer what they need, ergo less kids play sport, so less come through.

Same old Britain, we copied the French after 98, then Spain, then Belgium and now we're going down the same road again. Why does that panel not contain people who understand child development, small clubs, etc etc. The EPPP introduced U21's and leagues etc, but that's defunct now, so lets have B teams after spending all that money and ransoming the small clubs. What a waste of time that was after all, if these go through.

Radical my arse, all the FA have done is show that they are no longer here for the WHOLE of football, they have no authority over the game anymore and are willing to pander to the premier league yet again.

B teams in exchange for more home-grown players in EPL squads.

[rovers11]

Sounds like this proposal would enhance our international team but severely damage our leagues. The big question is: do we want to compromise the quality of domestic English league football to enhance our international team in order to stand a better chance of winning the world cup? For me, absolutely not! Domestic league football is where it's at, international football is just a sideline.

[McClarky]

Don't see how it would enhance our national team anyway. It's just a way of allowing big clubs to spread their influence through the whole of the game. How would England benefit from players playing uncompetetive quasi lower league football when they should be on the books of proper clubs and playing proper football. It's a farce.

Great to hear Steve Clarridge speaking out on radio 5 last night. He sounded like he was almost apoplectic with rage at the plight of the lower divisions.

[Majiball]

For me the real issue hit home when Morecambe opened their academy and satellite centers. They opened 4 centers in this area and in their 1st year, signed almost 50 players who had never played at clubs before to clubs bigger than them, with some 20 odd going to EPL teams. People say this area is saturated with academies and yet they found 50 players in their first year. And that's on top of the 150 odd at each center. Clearly the talent is there, it's just the clubs don't go looking for it hard enough.

[rovers11]

Don't see how it would enhance our national team anyway. It's just a way of allowing big clubs to spread their influence through the whole of the game. How would England benefit from players playing uncompetetive quasi lower league football when they should be on the books of proper clubs and playing proper football. It's a farce.

Great to hear Steve Clarridge speaking out on radio 5 last night. He sounded like he was almost apoplectic with rage at the plight of the lower divisions.

It would encourage clubs to bring through home grown talent if prem clubs are limited on the number of non-EU players and a complete ban on non EU players outside the premier league. Personally, I think the foreign players add so much to the domestic leagues in England. Who cares if that then has a negative impact on the quality and number of home grown players being brought through.

[den]

The top PL clubs could field a team quite able to win league three now. I have no doubt that after just a few seasons of those B teams winning their league the pressure to allow them promotion would be immense. The final outcome would be a Championship including maybe half a dozen PL clubs second teams - very nice for those elite clubs.

[Majiball]

The top PL clubs could field a team quite able to win league three now. I have no doubt that after just a few seasons of those B teams winning their league the pressure to allow them promotion would be immense. The final outcome would be a Championship including maybe half a dozen PL clubs second teams - very nice for those elite clubs.

The whole country is about making the rich, richer.

[AggyBlue]

Wouldn't limiting the number of players PL clubs can register solve the issue?

The present excess in their squads would filter into other clubs at a level their talent warrants. Why have them playing for a 'B' team when they could be a real asset to a league 1 or league 2 club.

[Majiball]

Wouldn't limiting the number of players PL clubs can register solve the issue?

The present excess in their squads would filter into other clubs at a level their talent warrants. Why have them playing for a 'B' team when they could be a real asset to a league 1 or league 2 club.

And there's the real issue. these days if a kid shows talent, for a measly 10K for every year he's been at the little club the EPL ones can rob him. He then goes into their squad and disappears as they would be better off staying somewhere they play and are the better player in the team. The big clubs hoard the kids now and they don't develop as they could. But hey ho lets just create a bigger platform for them to do it. First cheaper transfers for kids and now lets create B-teams, the FA should just come clean and do away with everything from league one down.

[AggyBlue]

And there's the real issue. these days if a kid shows talent, for a measly 10K for every year he's been at the little club the EPL ones can rob him. He then goes into their squad and disappears as they would be better off staying somewhere they play and are the better player in the team. The big clubs hoard the kids now and they don't develop as they could. But hey ho lets just create a bigger platform for them to do it. First cheaper transfers for kids and now lets create B-teams, the FA should just come clean and do away with everything from league one down.

Then supporters groups should be putting pressure on the football league not to accept these reserve teams in any guise or form.

[arbitro]

Many years ago they had the Central League (later the Pontins League) which was effectively a reserve league. All the big teams played at their own stadiums and used to draw decent crowds as these were played on alternate Saturdays to the first team. This was backed up by A and B teams. For the life in me I don't understand why they don't just do something like that without trying to upset the whole structure of the Football League. They could implement whatever rules they want to and manage it as they see fit.

The FA have always paid lip service to anything outside the professional game and they should be investing in grass roots and making the facilities better for youngsters. After the last World Cup it was reported that Germany had over 30000 qualified coaches and we had around 3000 (I can't remember the exact figures). The FA would be better off assisting potential coaches in getting qualified.

I dread to think how much St Georges Park cost and at the moment I see very little value in having it.

But ultimately it is all geared to having a successful national team but in all honesty who really cares about that? I can't remember the last time I watched an England game as the whole razzamataz and hype bores me rigid.

[Jim Royle]

The FA cannot even get its top talent at U21 level representing the country in the actual U21 competitions because:

a) they don't have the foresight to realise that tournament experience helps the development of its players

they promote players too quickly to the national team and take to play meaningless friendlies rather than play in the actual U21 tournament

c) refuse to take players whom are claimed by their premier league clubs to be "exhausted" after long season

So to my mind the FA is toothless and spineless.

Consulting with Premier League clubs?? hell we even had Gartside from BWFC "promoting" to plan to ban promotion and relegation to the EPL. I wonder what his thoughts are now? It is all about self interest of the clubs involved.

The FA needs to grow some and rip back some of its authority, but doing that whilst listening to premier league managers is not going to happen. I mean Arsene Wenger telling all that its the quality of training that matters, which I belive to be true, but he had previously been telling the England manager to take an untried youngster like Theo Walcott to world cup in 2006 - it was just plain ridiculous that the England manager did what he asked - and then Wenger whinges when England pick Jack Wilshire aying he has played too many games!

And lets not forget that Greg Dyke thinks all things manchester united are great, that despite having been chairman of Brentford who have actually got promoted by the borrowing of players from higher league clubs.