[Archived] Gary Bowyer Discussion

[Parsonblue]

Really ?

I think the lot of them are mediocre at best who would struggle to get employment elsewhere. IMV, Ewood now an 'old pals' network' all enjoying being on the 'gravy train'.

Fortunately, it's not my view.

Obtuse? The process when you have dismissed a manager or he has resigned. In response to the "who would want the job' bull

There are at least half a dozen on here who believe they could do the job - the joys of these computer games

[Jimmy612]

Obtuse? The process when you have dismissed a manager or he has resigned. In response to the "who would want the job' bull

Pahhh we can go round and round in circles discussing who would be available, who would want it, who would be suitable, who's got a good CV, who's got a bad CV.

Bottom line for me is that if Shaw or wheoever else is in charge at the club hasn't already been making consideration for a Bowyer replacement then they are simply not doing their job. Bowyer could simply leave for personal reasons on any given day - he may be presented with a medical problem that means he is advised not continue in a high-pressured job.

Even if it's not the plan to lose him, it's elementary that any club should have a plan in place. Personally I don't buy into this 'there's no one else available'. I'm sure there are many replacements - my concern is that I wouldn't for a second be confident in any of our hierarchy picking the right one.

[Mercer]

Fortunately, it's not my view.

There are at least half a dozen on here who believe they could do the job - the joys of these computer games

I base my view on results and what I see.

What gets measured gets done !!!

By any tangible measure, they've failed badly.

[JHRover]

The simple way of looking at it is this:

Is the football side of the club in a better state going into the summer of 2015 than it was going into the summer of 2013?

My opinion is a resounding yes it is. So Bowyer has been successful because if he were to leave today the club would be better off than when he started.

[ABBEY]

What job is that Shaun? We have a manager, assistant, coaches etc. All doing a pretty decent job thus far.

[Rover_Shaun]

my concern is that I wouldn't for a second be confident in any of our hierarchy picking the right one.

That is the crux

[DE.]

The simple way of looking at it is this:

Is the football side of the club in a better state going into the summer of 2015 than it was going into the summer of 2013?

My opinion is a resounding yes it is. So Bowyer has been successful because if he were to leave today the club would be better off than when he started.

Why have you taken a two year gap there? Are all managers judged by the time they started indefinitely as opposed to the most recent season?

A better way of looking at it would be is the club in a better state going into summer of 2015 than it was going into the summer of 2014?

Not such an optimistic picture in that instance.

[JHRover]

I haven't taken a two year gap. I'm merely looking at Bowyer's tenure as manager as a whole. When the time comes for him to leave I will judge him on what happened across his time in charge, rather than taking spells in isolation. I believe the best way to assess any manager's performance at a club is to look at where the club was beforehand and where the club is now.

Some people have said Bowyer has failed as manager. I don't agree. If he had failed as manager the club would be worse off than when he started. It isn't. And whatever people want to say about this season (it hasn't been anywhere near the disaster some would say it has been) I would still say we are in a far better state now than we were two years ago, along with a tinge of disappointment that we haven't been able to challenge for promotion.

I think his tenure as manager has been on the whole a success, and the club is now in a better state than it was when he became manager. We have a better team and are higher in the league, even after a 'failure' of a season, than when he started.

At the same time I'm not oblivious to the financial side of the club, but that isn't the manager's responsibility. The manager works with the budget the owners give him, and it is therefore their job to decide whether they are happy with our performance this season. We can discuss and debate this all day long, but if Venkys aren't happy losing the amount of money they are doing or aren't happy with the teams performance then its their prerogative to make a change.

I'll just cart on supporting the club as I always have and back the team. I know from very recent experience things could be a lot worse than they are under Bowyer.

[Rover_Shaun]

When the time comes for him to leave I will judge him on what happened across his time in charge, rather than taking spells in isolation

I can categorically assure you that if the day comes where he is sacked the former criteria will not factor into it. It will be based solely on the latter and rightly so

As it stands we are a mahooosive!!! 6 points better off than the end of the 12/13 season a 10% increase in points. Jeepers. Arise Sir Nice Guy!

If only the clubs only concern was treading water in mid table negatively comparing every season to the 12/13 watershed. Sadly the dyke has a fist sized hole in it with only Shelfies thumb plugging it

[JHRover]

I can categorically assure you that if the day comes where he is sacked the former criteria will not factor into it. It will be based solely on the latter and rightly so

As it stands we are a mahooosive!!! 6 points better off than the end of the 12/13 season. Jeepers. Arise Sir Nice Guy!

So do you agree that we're in a better state now than when he started? Or not?

Once again, the rate or scale of our improvement under Bowyer can be debated all day long. Have we improved enough or has it been quick enough etc.

Lots of clubs have gone backwards in the last couple of years. Under Bowyer we've gone forwards. That's a fact, however much you try to diminish it.

Next season might be a different story. We might be languishing in the bottom half/near relegation, in which case I would support/encourage a change in manager. Likewise we could do continue to be a top half side looking upwards as we have the entirety of his time as manager. Nobody knows what might happen next season. That's the fun of the Championship compared to the boring predictability of the Premier League.

Until next season arrives and gets under way theories and predictions of relegation scraps are a complete waste of time and mean nothing.

[K-Hod]

So do you agree that we're in a better state now than when he started? Or not?

Once again, the rate or scale of our improvement under Bowyer can be debated all day long. Have we improved enough or has it been quick enough etc.

Lots of clubs have gone backwards in the last couple of years. Under Bowyer we've gone forwards. That's a fact, however much you try to diminish it.

Next season might be a different story. We might be languishing in the bottom half/near relegation, in which case I would support/encourage a change in manager. Likewise we could do continue to be a top half side looking upwards as we have the entirety of his time as manager. Nobody knows what might happen next season. That's the fun of the Championship compared to the boring predictability of the Premier League.

Until next season arrives and gets under way theories and predictions of relegation scraps are a complete waste of time and mean nothing.

We've finished lower than last season though, so that's impossible? This is a football club, and success is measured on the pitch.

[Rover_Shaun]

So do you agree that we're in a better state now than when he started? Or not?

Ok then I'll enter your black and white world where no grey exists and answer the only way I can with a yes, just

However in harsh reality.............

1. As the clubs stated target has been promotion for the last two seasons would you consider this season to be a success?

2. The clubs dire need next season is promotion. Do you think Bowyer can get close to that? (in that we actually spend prolonged time in the top 6 rather than fritter around 10th)

Many wouldn't mind missing out on the play offs if we ever looked like being anywhere near capable. Last season's end gave hope. This season delivers nothing positive

[phili]

So do you agree that we're in a better state now than when he started? Or not?

Once again, the rate or scale of our improvement under Bowyer can be debated all day long. Have we improved enough or has it been quick enough etc.

Lots of clubs have gone backwards in the last couple of years. Under Bowyer we've gone forwards. That's a fact, however much you try to diminish it.

Next season might be a different story. We might be languishing in the bottom half/near relegation, in which case I would support/encourage a change in manager. Likewise we could do continue to be a top half side looking upwards as we have the entirety of his time as manager. Nobody knows what might happen next season. That's the fun of the Championship compared to the boring predictability of the Premier League.

Until next season arrives and gets under way theories and predictions of relegation scraps are a complete waste of time and mean nothing.

Well we are about £45m more in debt, have no real style of play, brought nearly 2 whole teams worth of players and still have glaring holes in the squad that need fixing without any cash to do it. I would say we are going backwards at an alarming rate.

Gary sort of reminds me of Tony Parks before Souness took over. Nice chap who would not get us relegated but not likely to get us promoted.

[JHRover]

Ok then I'll enter your black and white world where no grey exists and answer the only way I can with a yes, just

However in harsh reality.............

1. As the clubs stated target has been promotion for the last two seasons would you consider this season to be a success?

2. The clubs dire need next season is promotion. Do you think Bowyer can deliver?

Can you direct me to where the club has stated the REQUIREMENT this season or last season on Bowyer was to deliver promotion?

I'm not aware of any such document. The only evidence we have is Myers' Rhodes statement from last summer, but there was no timescale on promotion, merely that it was the clubs aim.

You say the clubs 'dire need' next season is promotion, but again, we're speculating on the finances and Venkys future intentions. Our need for the last 3 years has been promotion, yet they seem happy to cart on regardless. Its their decision to make if they aren't happy with what's happening on the pitch or how much money they are losing, not ours.

We've finished lower than last season though, so that's impossible? This is a football club, and success is measured on the pitch.

But do you agree we're better now than when he took over?

[Rover_Shaun]

You are aware of the debt that rises by circa £2m a month? Once dire doesn't fully cover it in reality

But do you agree we're better now than when he took over?

as though what happened 30 years ago has any relevance to 2015-16

As YOU say the past is irrelevant to the now which nullifies your question to K-Hod

[JHRover]

Well we are about £45m more in debt, have no real style of play, brought nearly 2 whole teams worth of players and still have glaring holes in the squad that need fixing without any cash to do it. I would say we are going backwards at an alarming rate.

Gary sort of reminds me of Tony Parks before Souness took over. Nice chap who would not get us relegated but not likely to get us promoted.

Do you think we are worse off now than when Bowyer took over? Really?

The debt isn't Bowyer's fault. That is the legacy of his predecessors and the owners.

I understand some people aren't happy with the style of play, but the reality is that despite such a supposedly flawed manager, squad with holes in it and no style of play we have managed to spend virtually the whole of the last 2 seasons in the top half of the Championship.

That consistency in itself in the most topsy-turvy of divisions suggests that the problems aren't as wide-scale.

Ok so we haven't got the promotion we had hoped for. We can sit at the table next to Forest, Cardiff, Fulham, Brighton, Wigan and Norwich/Boro/Derby and wonder what went wrong there because we've all failed to deliver.

[Rover_Shaun]

Then we'll all chew the fat together.

Collective failure does not equate to individual success

One thing I do agree on is that promotion may have been the clubs aim, as it was the fans and it is hardly surprising that the club continues to be out of touch with the majority of the fanbase and is happy to accept failure..........as per venkys entire reign

[K-Hod]

Can you direct me to where the club has stated the REQUIREMENT this season or last season on Bowyer was to deliver promotion?

I'm not aware of any such document. The only evidence we have is Myers' Rhodes statement from last summer, but there was no timescale on promotion, merely that it was the clubs aim.

You say the clubs 'dire need' next season is promotion, but again, we're speculating on the finances and Venkys future intentions. Our need for the last 3 years has been promotion, yet they seem happy to cart on regardless. Its their decision to make if they aren't happy with what's happening on the pitch or how much money they are losing, not ours.

But do you agree we're better now than when he took over?

Well yeah, we're higher in the league than then, BUT, there's been no progress since last season and we've kept the same squad together. So progress has stopped.

The same mistakes keep happening, we keep surrendering leads, we don't keep clean sheets and the midfield is awful and loads of players have been brought in, but the problem position of central midfield has inexplicably not been prioritised.

[phili]

Do you think we are worse off now than when Bowyer took over? Really?

The debt isn't Bowyer's fault. That is the legacy of his predecessors and the owners.

I understand some people aren't happy with the style of play, but the reality is that despite such a supposedly flawed manager, squad with holes in it and no style of play we have managed to spend virtually the whole of the last 2 seasons in the top half of the Championship.

That consistency in itself in the most topsy-turvy of divisions suggests that the problems aren't as wide-scale.

Ok so we haven't got the promotion we had hoped for. We can sit at the table next to Forest, Cardiff, Fulham, Brighton, Wigan and Norwich/Boro/Derby and wonder what went wrong there because we've all failed to deliver.

Yep I would say we are a lot worse off this year compared to last year.

We have a midfield that has not performed, we lack pace or cohesion whether we talk about attacking or defending.

Once we lose Rhodes and Gestede in the summer, as we'll have to as some semblance of financial management will have to come into effect this summer, I can see up being relegated next season with a wimper.

These have been 2 completed wasted years and we have absolutely nothing to show for it, we are in a worse position than two years ago simply because our parachute payments finish next season. Do we honestly think we can get promoted next season as we must?

[jim mk2]

Yep I would say we are a lot worse off this year compared to last year.

We have a midfield that has not performed, we lack pace or cohesion whether we talk about attacking or defending.

Once we lose Rhodes and Gestede in the summer, as we'll have to as some semblance of financial management will have to come into effect this summer, I can see up being relegated next season with a wimper.

These have been 2 completed wasted years and we have absolutely nothing to show for it, we are in a worse position than two years ago simply because our parachute payments finish next season. Do we honestly think we can get promoted next season as we must?

The defence (or to be more precise the number of goals we concede, which involves the midfield as well) has been our Achilles heel for 2 seasons or more. With even a average defensive record we would probably have made the playoffs this year and certainly would have last season.

Bowyer can get us promoted if he can convince Gestede and Rhodes to stay (or find suitable replacements) and, more important, recognise his coaching staff's deficiencies and hire an top coach to help him set up the team properly to defend leads and see out matches from the many winning positions we have thrown away over the past year or so.

[JHRover]

Yep I would say we are a lot worse off this year compared to last year.

We have a midfield that has not performed, we lack pace or cohesion whether we talk about attacking or defending.

Once we lose Rhodes and Gestede in the summer, as we'll have to as some semblance of financial management will have to come into effect this summer, I can see up being relegated next season with a wimper.

These have been 2 completed wasted years and we have absolutely nothing to show for it, we are in a worse position than two years ago simply because our parachute payments finish next season. Do we honestly think we can get promoted next season as we must?

What is a 'wasted year'?

Is it anything other than a promotion winning season or a Premier League season?

Nobody has the power of foresight. So predictions about what we might do next season are a waste of time. When next season comes around if we are struggling in this division I'll be the first to support a change of manager. Not that it will make any difference in Venkys world anyway.

You seem to want to criticise the manager on something that hasn't yet happened and might never happen. But to me that's scraping the barrel of Bowyer criticisms. Fair enough if you're not happy with what's gone on this season, I'm not particularly happy myself, but what might happen next season nobody knows, and no manager should be dealt with on what supporters think could happen next season.

[Amo]

The simple way of looking at it is this:

Is the football side of the club in a better state going into the summer of 2015 than it was going into the summer of 2013?

My opinion is a resounding yes it is. So Bowyer has been successful because if he were to leave today the club would be better off than when he started.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the same guy who said there's effectively no difference between finishing 9th and finishing 3rd (and losing the playoffs)?

Therefore, if we go by your reasoning there's no appreciable difference between 2013 & 2015, because the upshot is we're still stuck in the Championship.

[ABBEY]

Can you direct me to where the club has stated the REQUIREMENT this season or last season on Bowyer was to deliver promotion?

I'm not aware of any such document. The only evidence we have is Myers' Rhodes statement from last summer, but there was no timescale on promotion, merely that it was the clubs aim.

You say the clubs 'dire need' next season is promotion, but again, we're speculating on the finances and Venkys future intentions. Our need for the last 3 years has been promotion, yet they seem happy to cart on regardless. Its their decision to make if they aren't happy with what's happening on the pitch or how much money they are losing, not ours.

But do you agree we're better now than when he took over?

another happy clapping newbie.

[thenodrog]

What job is that Shaun? We have a manager, assistant, coaches etc. All doing a pretty decent job thus far.

I tend to defend Bowyer mainly because of the rude and ignorant bully boys on here. But I readily acknowledge that he isn't perfect by a long way and I do think we should be looking for better. BUT lets be fair also he hasn't done badly has he? Lets look and compare with what we've had. He's miles in front on Ince, Appleton, Berg and Kean but nowhere close to proper experienced Managers like Hughes and Allardyce. BUT guess what? Unless I'm very much mistaken 99% of any potential applicants will be from the first group. Anybody thinking any different will no doubt be hoping to win the lottery two weeks on the spin and think a threesome with Michelle Keegan and Emilia Clarke this weekend is well on the cards.

Whoever comes in will have a 90% chance of bombing imo simply because the quality within the squad is set to nosedive this summer. Too many on here are pontificating and nodding their heads wisely as they play out their own version of Championship Manager but in truth they are ignoring the elephant in the room ..... very similar to what they did 4 bloody years ago! Same room different elephant this time.

[Rover_Shaun]

Jim. You sound like you are absolving Bowyer of all responsibility for our continued defensive frailties throughout his entire tenure, and are putting the blame solely on his staff?