[Archived] Gary Bowyer Discussion

[Parsonblue]

I'd call PB, Chaddy and the like sanctimonious, not delusional. I actually think they understand the other argument and in secret probably agree with it.

Of course I understand the other argument Andy, but I simply have a different viewpoint.

It doesn't matter how much of a diehard fan you are, Parson. If you're talking bull****, you're talking bull****.

Well when it comes to bull****, I suppose I should accept that you are the master of that particular rhetoric.

[Amo]

Well when it comes to bull****, I suppose I should accept that you are the master of that particular rhetoric.

Come on, don't come down to my level, bring me up to yours.

[Parsonblue]

Re the bit in bold, I think you're missing the point, or deliberately ignoring it. Our decline was man made and because of the errors of our owners, the best way to correct the finances is to get promoted back to the PL. When it seems like our manager is not doing everything he can to make that happen then it's bound to cause frustration, it's as simple as that.

We have no divine right to be anywhere, but we were holding our own in the PL until this lot came along.

No argument from me on that K-Hod. We brought about our own downfall by decisions made when they took over. Sacking Sam was the first of a long line of poor decisions but we can't alter the past. I believe Bowyer is as desperate to get back to the Premier League as the rest of us as it's in his own best interests for the club to be successful.

Come on, don't come down to my level, bring me up to yours.

I thought I'd descend to that level to see what the view was like from down there. But you're right, it ain't great.

[Stuart]

I'm not sure how stating that clubs run Academies on limited incomes equates to wanting to compete with Crewe rather than Burnley. However, as you mention it I think Crewe's youth structure has probably been one of the most successful in the country over the past 20 years or so.

There seems to be a school of thought that the Rovers have some divine right to Premier League football and that Bowyer is denying us of our divine right to that level. No club - as so many have found in the past and will do again in the future - has a divine right to be in the top flight. If you make mistakes and crass decisions - as our owners did, or were led into doing by others with their own agendas - then it usually results in relegation. Occasionally, you can get back quickly but more often than not it takes longer - Ipswich, Derby & Forest being just three examples. No manager can guarantee success. If Bowyer was sacked and a new man arrives and ends up in mid-table is he sacked? Where does it end? For the first time since Venky's took over the club I actually think they are on the right track in looking for a slow, long term recovery that is built on a solid foundation. Of course it is reliant on them continuing to back the club financially but I've yet to see anything that suggests they won't. One suspects that pride may well dictate that they stick around, that and wanting to get some sort of return on their investment which if they walk away now they would take a huge financial hit.

If you are saying that the people of Blackburn are only interested in following a successful team and abandon the club when times are tough - which you seem to imply with the 5 to 6K supporters - you'd get no argument from me. As for the next generation of supporters are you suggesting that unless clubs are in the Premier League then youngsters won't follow their local club? I would agree that TV makes it easier to become a supporter of a Chelsea, City, Utd, etc. but that has been the case in the past.

The history of the Rovers shows that when times are tough the crowds drop off alarmingly.

I admit Stuart, that my ideas of sticking with a club through good times and bad times is clearly old fashioned but I'm too long in the tooth now to change my viewpoint on that.

In all honesty Stuart, I don't believe that there is a quick solution to our woes and that it will be a long haul back to be where we all want to be.

Everything in that post backs up what I said, regardless of how I came to my conclusions. Burnley are very similar to us but have shown the difference that having a forward thinking and ambitious manager has. He expects 110% every game from every player, and would not applaud his players or slap them on the back for a 90% performance. He has a small squad and has them all fit and firing. Our man is a development coach and player development is what he does. There's no shame in that but it is at odds with the reason d'être of a professional football club.

We don't have to be in the PL, no, but we do have to play the game like we are attempting to get there, and that the aim of every single person at the club should be to get to the top flight.

Turning the club into a feeder club for bigger clubs - as a deliberate strategy - is only going to turn people off. Blackburn does have people who want to watch football. It does not have enough of a hardcore to sustain a Championship club. The value for money element has to be there. You do not appreciate this or do not care. As long as you and your hardcore can rub shoulders that will do for you. That's not a personal attack, I'm simply playing back what I believe is your opinion through reading many, many of your posts. The problem is that this is not in the best interests or long term success of the club. The dark days of the 80s are a likely conclusion to the current ownership's direction and naivety. It is not the desired outcome. Not for 75% of our potential attendees anyway.

But @#/? 'em because they aren't 'true fans', eh?

[Parsonblue]

Everything in that post backs up what I said, regardless of how I came to my conclusions. Burnley are very similar to us but have shown the difference that having a forward thinking and ambitious manager has. He expects 110% every game from every player, and would not applaud his players or slap them on the back for a 90% performance. He has a small squad and has them all fit and firing. Our man is a development coach and player development is what he does. There's no shame in that but it is at odds with the reason d'être of a professional football club.

We don't have to be in the PL, no, but we do have to play the game like we are attempting to get there, and that the aim of every single person at the club should be to get to the top flight.

Turning the club into a feeder club for bigger clubs - as a deliberate strategy - is only going to turn people off. Blackburn does have people who want to watch football. It does not have enough of a hardcore to sustain a Championship club. The value for money element has to be there. You do not appreciate this or do not care. As long as you and your hardcore can rub shoulders that will do for you. That's not a personal attack, I'm simply playing back what I believe is your opinion through reading many, many of your posts. The problem is that this is not in the best interests or long term success of the club. The dark days of the 80s are a likely conclusion to the current ownership's direction and naivety. It is not the desired outcome. Not for 75% of our potential attendees anyway.

But @#/? 'em because they aren't 'true fans', eh?

You couldn't be more wrong Stuart. Of course, I want to be back in the Premier League. I want to travel around Europe again following the Rovers - who wouldn't. They were the best times I've had watching the Rovers. It's just that I don't think there is a fast track to that anymore. When we came down last time we were in a position to throw money at it and Souness was the ideal manager for that scenario. This time we can't and FFP will ensure we can't for some time to come. Therefore we have to travel down a different road, picking up other folks cast-offs - Gestede, Conway, Cairney, Marshall etc - and together with our own products - Lowe, Henley, Olsson, Hanley etc - try and build a squad that will challenge for promotion. As Ipswich and Derby have found it may take years before all the pieces slot into place.

[DE.]

And as Ipswich and Derby found out, finding the right manager is the key to doing well in this division.

[ABBEY]

PARSON...You still have not answered my question regarding your don't worry post.

[tomphil]

All this 'putting their money in' is a bit far fetched imo. The club is more than likely being run on a huge overdraft with the BOI which granted is probably secured on V's assets and they must have a great line of credit there. It will keep going up until the bank demands some of it is paid down, there'll be a limit on it and it's just a question on when we reach it before serious action will have to be taken.

[K-Hod]

All this 'putting their money in' is a bit far fetched imo. The club is more than likely being run on a huge overdraft with the BOI which granted is probably secured on V's assets and they must have a great line of credit there. It will keep going up until the bank demands some of it is paid down, there'll be a limit on it and it's just a question on when we reach it before serious action will have to be taken.

Precisely. If they were 'putting their own money in', then surely we wouldn't have posted massive losses and be subject to a transfer embargo!

[Parsonblue]

PARSON...You still have not answered my question regarding your don't worry post.

Abbey, whilst Venky's are here you'll never stop worrying. Under the present circumstances I believe that Bowyer will, at the very least, keep us afloat in the Championship. That may not seem much but I bet Wigan wish they were in our position with Bowyer as manager rather Malky. I guess it comes down to do you believe we can survive without them or with them and on that we have different views.

[Stuart]

You couldn't be more wrong Stuart. Of course, I want to be back in the Premier League. I want to travel around Europe again following the Rovers - who wouldn't. They were the best times I've had watching the Rovers. It's just that I don't think there is a fast track to that anymore. When we came down last time we were in a position to throw money at it and Souness was the ideal manager for that scenario. This time we can't and FFP will ensure we can't for some time to come. Therefore we have to travel down a different road, picking up other folks cast-offs - Gestede, Conway, Cairney, Marshall etc - and together with our own products - Lowe, Henley, Olsson, Hanley etc - try and build a squad that will challenge for promotion. As Ipswich and Derby have found it may take years before all the pieces slot into place.

It doesn't need money throwing at it though. There are plenty of examples.

What does need money is staying in the PL but we can worry about that when if we get there.

[tomphil]

There was certainly no signs of them throwing money at it whilst in the Prem, quite the opposite. These lot are indefensible. If we are going to flounder away in midtable in this div for years to come in front of 6k then I'd rather it be without that lot than with them. It would make the whole thing damn easier to support.

[Rover_Shaun]

It's just that I don't think there is a fast track to that anymore. When we came down last time we were in a position to throw money at it and Souness was the ideal manager for that scenario.

There is no fast track. But should we continue on what is now a hard set downward slope?

Souness took over on March 14th 2000 and in his first full season he spent £7.9m to get us promoted

John Curtis Man Utd £1,500,000 01 Jun, 2000

Stig-Inge Bjornebye Liverpool £300,000 26 Jun, 2000

Craig Hignett Barnsley £2,250,000 10 Jul, 2000

Mark Hughes Everton Free 24 Oct, 2000

Brad Friedel Liverpool Free 03 Nov, 2000

Marcus Bent Sheff Utd £2,100,000 23 Nov, 2000

Henning Berg Man Utd £1,750,000 15 Dec, 2000

That's less than one Jordan Rhodes. Bowyer may not have signed him but he's getting the (mis)use out of him all the same.

In the 3 seasons we have been out of the PL the club has spent £17.55m.

Out of that outlay only Etuhu (£1.5m) has been moved on who cost us money.

So Bowyer has a squad that cost £16,050,000

SIXTEEN MILLION AND FIFTY THOUSAND POUNDS!!

Make up your own mind on how well he's using such lavish resources

Source:http://www.transferleague.co.uk/blackburn-rovers/english-football-teams/blackburn-rovers-transfers

it does not include Ben Marshal @ £1m or Gestede @ £300k

[Reedy You're A Star]

Abbey, whilst Venky's are here you'll never stop worrying. Under the present circumstances I believe that Bowyer will, at the very least, keep us afloat in the Championship. That may not seem much but I bet Wigan wish they were in our position with Bowyer as manager rather Malky. I guess it comes down to do you believe we can survive without them or with them and on that we have different views.

To be honest, we're probably going to need just that from next season. I've been firmly in the "change of manager camp", because we've needed to get back up to PL sharpish due to finances and debt, but that chance looks like it has now gone for the foreseeable future. We're likely to have to sell our better players to get the embargo lifted and will struggle to compete at the top end of the league. So GB is probably the best man for keeping us afloat.

It's a shame that he was brought in 2 seasons too early. It could've been avoided with a more experienced manager, as I still believe an experienced manager could have got us up before now. Treading water in the Championship until the debt gets us is probably the best we can hope for now, unfortunately

[ABBEY]

Abbey, whilst Venky's are here you'll never stop worrying. Under the present circumstances I believe that Bowyer will, at the very least, keep us afloat in the Championship. That may not seem much but I bet Wigan wish they were in our position with Bowyer as manager rather Malky. I guess it comes down to do you believe we can survive without them or with them and on that we have different views.

Is YOU'LL a everyone or just me?

[Mike Graham]

There is no fast track. But should we continue on what is now a hard set downward slope?

Souness took over on March 14th 2000 and in his first full season he spent £7.9m to get us promoted

John Curtis Man Utd £1,500,000 01 Jun, 2000

Stig-Inge Bjornebye Liverpool £300,000 26 Jun, 2000

Craig Hignett Barnsley £2,250,000 10 Jul, 2000

Mark Hughes Everton Free 24 Oct, 2000

Brad Friedel Liverpool Free 03 Nov, 2000

Marcus Bent Sheff Utd £2,100,000 23 Nov, 2000

Henning Berg Man Utd £1,750,000 15 Dec, 2000

That's less than one Jordan Rhodes. Bowyer may not have signed him but he's getting the (mis)use out of him all the same.

In the 3 seasons we have been out of the PL the club has spent £17.55m.

Out of that outlay only Etuhu (£1.5m) has been moved on who cost us money.

So Bowyer has a squad that cost £16,050,000

SIXTEEN MILLION AND FIFTY THOUSAND POUNDS!!

Make up your own mind on how well he's using such lavish resources

Source:http://www.transferleague.co.uk/blackburn-rovers/english-football-teams/blackburn-rovers-transfers

it does not include Ben Marshal @ £1m or Gestede @ £300k

The two best signings on that list were Hughes and Brad for a grand total of £0 fee. That is what I call good transfer dealings!!

[Gav]

There is no fast track. But should we continue on what is now a hard set downward slope?

Souness took over on March 14th 2000 and in his first full season he spent £7.9m to get us promoted

John Curtis Man Utd £1,500,000 01 Jun, 2000

Stig-Inge Bjornebye Liverpool £300,000 26 Jun, 2000

Craig Hignett Barnsley £2,250,000 10 Jul, 2000

Mark Hughes Everton Free 24 Oct, 2000

Brad Friedel Liverpool Free 03 Nov, 2000

Marcus Bent Sheff Utd £2,100,000 23 Nov, 2000

Henning Berg Man Utd £1,750,000 15 Dec, 2000

That's less than one Jordan Rhodes. Bowyer may not have signed him but he's getting the (mis)use out of him all the same.

In the 3 seasons we have been out of the PL the club has spent £17.55m.

Out of that outlay only Etuhu (£1.5m) has been moved on who cost us money.

So Bowyer has a squad that cost £16,050,000

SIXTEEN MILLION AND FIFTY THOUSAND POUNDS!!

Make up your own mind on how well he's using such lavish resources

Source:http://www.transferleague.co.uk/blackburn-rovers/english-football-teams/blackburn-rovers-transfers

it does not include Ben Marshal @ £1m or Gestede @ £300k

Give over man, Bowyer has spent nothing in the grand scheme of things. How can you attribute Rhodes transfer to Bowyer? Laughable!

Why not add the cost of entire Liverpool side also as they played on the same pitch as Bowyers side, Stoke and Swansea also.....

[Rover_Shaun]

In your frothed mouth desire to stalk and denegrate everything I post you once again forgot to actually read what I put in the haste of your bitterness.

"Bowyer may not have signed him but he's had the use of him" and I said the squad "at his disposal" is worth £16m. Whether he signed them or not that is the clubs outlay and debunks the myth that only in Souness' time did we have lavish funds. The difference being Souness was good at his job whereas we're now onto our 4th average joe.

What Liverpool and Swansea have to do with it is perplexing and only you can answer as to what plane of thought that bunkem derived.

I can only advise you to take a bit of cold turkey in your misfiring attempts to pick apart my posts. It's not doing you any favours old bean.

[adsfortheblues]

Give over man, Bowyer has spent nothing in the grand scheme of things. How can you attribute Rhodes transfer to Bowyer? Laughable!

Why not add the cost of entire Liverpool side also as they played on the same pitch as Bowyers side, Stoke and Swansea also.....

He didn't say that though did he, he said "Bowyer may not have signed him but he's getting the (mis)use out of him all the same". He is saying we have a squad of which amounts to transfer fees of over £16million, more than most in the football league. Lets not also forget the amount of players we have signed on loan and those signed on a free, with good wages. The money spent on this squad is more than most in the football league.

Also one thing which people who back Bowyer don't mention is that he has signed 24 players, that's over two teams. Therefore it is his team and he has had 2 and a half seasons now.

[Rover_Shaun]

At least someone had the sense to wear eclipse glasses, Ads

[Athlete]

All this 'putting their money in' is a bit far fetched imo. The club is more than likely being run on a huge overdraft with the BOI which granted is probably secured on V's assets and they must have a great line of credit there. It will keep going up until the bank demands some of it is paid down, there'll be a limit on it and it's just a question on when we reach it before serious action will have to be taken.

again mate read the Championship clubs debt thread....the BOI will come to BRFC via Venkys London not venkys....then theres also the external debts....

As stated before we are in one big mess only promotion can get us out of....

at 30 June 2014, Rovers' total creditors, including provision for liabilities, stood at £106million of which £59million (55%) was owed to the parent undertaking (Venky's London)....the other 45% is external debt

the above isn't good reading but hey some fans are happy to plod along in mid table under the nice stable Gazza.......they really need to wake up...( who if we keep regressing and team dismantled will eventually take us down IMO )

He didn't say that though did he, he said "Bowyer may not have signed him but he's getting the (mis)use out of him all the same". He is saying we have a squad of which amounts to transfer fees of over £16million, more than most in the football league. Lets not also forget the amount of players we have signed on loan and those signed on a free, with good wages. The money spent on this squad is more than most in the football league.

Also one thing which people who back Bowyer don't mention is that he has signed 24 players, that's over two teams. Therefore it is his team and he has had 2 and a half seasons now.

struggle to think of any club outside the Prem who've had the resourses mr Nice gazza has had..........

This is whats so frustrating in the most mundane of seasons...he still doesn't know his best stating eleven after all this time...it's his squad ( if he signed them of course )...too many coaches experiment swap and change this seems to be what GB does on an awful lot of occasions...

[Gav]

He didn't say that though did he, he said "Bowyer may not have signed him but he's getting the (mis)use out of him all the same". He is saying we have a squad of which amounts to transfer fees of over £16million, more than most in the football league. Lets not also forget the amount of players we have signed on loan and those signed on a free, with good wages. The money spent on this squad is more than most in the football league.

Also one thing which people who back Bowyer don't mention is that he has signed 24 players, that's over two teams. Therefore it is his team and he has had 2 and a half seasons now.

The arguement is flawed ads, it's not Bowyers fault we payed 8m for Rhodes, he wasn't involved in his transfer. That's just bunkum, distorting the facts to hammer the manager.

He may well have signed 24 players, most of which are free transfers, other clubs rejects and loans.

I'm all for debating the managers position but let's keep it real.

[Rover_Shaun]

The arguement was not what HE has spent but the claim was what WE have spent and that Souness had bigger recources to get us out of this league.

Sign him or not Bowyer has an £8m striker on his books and £8m worth of other talent in his squad and has delivered regression.

Spurious claims are used in Bowyers defence but when cold hard facts are displayed to stay those assertions they are dismissed in a 'flat earth society' kind of why

Man City's manager will lose his job for (in the opinion of his owners) not using the talent at his disposal effectively. Whether he signed them or not will not matter one iota to Sheik Mansour.

[tomphil]

They'll be dragging up the supposedly awful working conditions he has supposedly had to put up with behind the scenes, all for nothing of course. Or the single handed way he's reduced the wage bill to almost zero whilst keeping a competitive team on the pitch

[LDRover]

If he's in a position to give his best man one of the top jobs I'd say his working conditions are pretty darn good for him.