[Archived] Gary Bowyer Discussion

[Gav]

He answered "Yes I do want promotion" but that wasn't the question of Den's that I raised with Chaddy, as he knows full well.

Its like wrestling with an eel.

Utter bullshlt Gav, see above.

Ok 47er, you're obviously wound up like a cuckoo clock, when you calm down we'll talk about it again.

[Parsonblue]

Only Parson has even tried to answer both questions Gav and the only thing he could come up with is "a few games in the last three or four months, that we didn't win, that we deserved something from" and "signed a few decent freebies".

It's dead easy.

Yes

None.

It is dead easy den. You either have faith in the manager and believe, that given time, he will achieve better things for the club or you don't. I believe that he is worth sticking with for another season. I don't need to justify that belief with a list of pros and cons. I believe we are making progress, not as quickly as one would like, but I can see an improvement on the position - and I'm not talking League tables - we were in when he took over and where we are now.

[K-Hod]

Even if they give you an answer, what difference does it make? By the way- my answers are yes and nothing, but who really cares?

Some posters are getting far too wound up imo.

Makes me laugh just how many people were 'not renewing their season tickets under Allardyce', now saying the same thing about Bowyer and his brand of football. Deary me.

[Gav]

Only Parson has even tried to answer both questions Gav and the only thing he could come up with is "a few games in the last three or four months, that we didn't win, that we deserved something from" and "signed a few decent freebies".

It's dead easy.

Yes

None.

I've answered your questions twice and you've ignored me both times, so whats the point?

Its not as black and white as you make it out to be either den and I'm sure you're aware of that.

It is dead easy den. You either have faith in the manager and believe, that given time, he will achieve better things for the club or you don't. I believe that he is worth sticking with for another season. I don't need to justify that belief with a list of pros and cons. I believe we are making progress, not as quickly as one would like, but I can see an improvement on the position - and I'm not talking League tables - we were in when he took over and where we are now.

And why the hell someone isn't allowed to hold this opinion without being rounded on is beyond me!

Its as if posters see trying to change his mind as some sort of game/sport, i just don't get it, what happended to respecting other peoples views?

[gumboots]

It is dead easy den. You either have faith in the manager and believe, that given time, he will achieve better things for the club or you don't. I believe that he is worth sticking with for another season. I don't need to justify that belief with a list of pros and cons. I believe we are making progress, not as quickly as one would like, but I can see an improvement on the position - and I'm not talking League tables - we were in when he took over and where we are now.

What do you see though that makes you think bowyer can become the manager he needs to be to get us into a better league position, to bring back some semblance of pride, some smidgen of entertainment. You see I want to believe. I've always wanted to believe. I tried to refrain from criticism for as long as possible but when fans are leaving in their droves and the football gets worse week by week, then I think you do need to tell us what you actually see that is different from what the rest of us seem to see. It's no good saying it's been worse and we've come through it. We've never been devoid of people trying their best for the club at board level and as owners. We've never been in the situation where nobody cared at senior level in the club.

[Kamy100]

I suspect that Gary will be heading out to Pune over the international break, it will be the first opportunity that he has had to have face to face talks with Mrs D since last November.

I would be majorly surprised if she decides to sack him now or over the summer, so it will be a case of over the summer trying to get the club out of the transfer embargo and working on loan deals. The last 3 weeks the scouts who have until now almost exclusively been concentrating on UK talent have been on European scouting missions to Scandinavia, Austria and Germany. Again it suggests that Gary has already begun the planning for next season and must be confident of retaining his position.

We can discuss him being sacked until we are blue in the face, it will not matter a jot what we think as Venky's and Mrs D in particular will do as they please. As I and others have said previously the board at Ewood Park is nothing more than a rubber stamping body, they have no real power or the desire to put forward suggestions to the owners.

[mustard]

My view also. Nowadays, I'm not bothered if I arrive late, or if I leave early to beat the car park traffic (all 50 of them). In fact its a blessing a lot of the time. Boring, boring, boring, rubbish with no pride or soul and little imagination, performed by people who simply do not care as much as they should. It's been dull as dishwater at home ever since Allardyce was potted. Sitting alone in total silence amongst thousands of empty seats is a pretty souless experience, hard to imagine repreating year in, year out.

Not that the football under SA was 'complete' but at least we worked to a strategy and plan, cared about our own goal and the defence, had players who were fit and gave their all, had some star dust sprinkled about to call upon and perhaps most importantly knowledegable football folk making key decisions for the betterment of the club, not any particular individual. With 20+ thousand turning up to support because they believed in the club and its agenda and actually enjoyed the product available to them.

It has been far worse than just poor quality football this last 3 / 4 years, It has been spineless, self-serving, undignified, unenjoyable, without class and left a sour taste in the mouth of genuine fans for way too long now. Like many I hoped for different under Bowyer, at least in terms of an identifiable plan and strategy. Sickening to now observe similar spin and hear of player values increasing, penalty box entries, how much others have supposedly spent, blah blah blah whilst still bored stiff conceeding as many goals as we score.

Correct, He may or may not have deserved his chance, but at the time I was content for him to have a go. I quickly changed my mind in his first full season as he failed to address our goalkeeper and defence, all and sundry found it easy to score against us and the season was over after three months bar the late rally as our gargantuan squad kicked in..

Rhodes may well be the best finisher in the league, but it is all he is best at. Rarely seen such an accomplished finisher who is so hopeless in general play.

Lack pace when King doesn't play? You don't say Chaddy? Glad you have cottoned on at last. Might be something to do with the best finisher you mentioned above. Like it or not, pace upfront is vital and our play is constantly stymied by not having any. Hard to tell how good some of our midfieldrs are sometimes as there is rarely anyone showing, more than one option and never an out ball over the top to relieve pressure, condense play and improve our field position. Constantly playing in to feet is ridiculous easy to mark, espeoially when the striker is as slow and weak as Jordan in those circumstances. All defenders hate being turned to face their own goal as we saw recently numerous times with King playing against PL quality defenders and systems.

Agreed with everything except your remarks re Rhodes. All he's good at is scoring goals... What a shame ey?

I think people are harsh on JR. No one had these complaints last season or the season before when we weren't so focused on hoofball. Rhodes isn't going to win battles with 6'5 centre halves. Hell, even Gestede is suffering with this at times as our lump-it tactics get found out. I think he gets a hard time, especially since he's actually decent when the ball is played into feet. He always looks to collect it, lay it wide and move. He's our top scorer and has also assisted more than anyone else with the exception of Conway, Marshall and Cairney. Our top assister (Marshall/Marshypoo with 6) has only assisted two more than Rhodes.

People forget, without Rhodes, we would be in League One. Bowyer didn't keep us up in 2013, Rhodes did. In our first Champ season when he bagged 27, the closest to him was Rochina and Dunn on 5 goals. Had we signed a 15 goal a season striker we'd have been relegated.

[Gav]

I suspect that Gary will be heading out to Pune over the international break, it will be the first opportunity that he has had to have face to face talks with Mrs D since last November.

I would be majorly surprised if she decides to sack him now or over the summer, so it will be a case of over the summer trying to get the club out of the transfer embargo and working on loan deals. The last 3 weeks the scouts who have until now almost exclusively been concentrating on UK talent have been on European scouting missions to Scandinavia, Austria and Germany. Again it suggests that Gary has already begun the planning for next season and must be confident of retaining his position.

We can discuss him being sacked until we are blue in the face, it will not matter a jot what we think as Venky's and Mrs D in particular will do as they please. As I and others have said previously the board at Ewood Park is nothing more than a rubber stamping body, they have no real power or the desire to put forward suggestions to the owners.

No surprise in what you're saying Kamy, they always take the easy option, but if the feeling on here is mirrored in season ticket sales that will make them sit up and take note.

I know season ticket income is minor in the grand scheme of things, but i believe its more about pride and seeing perceived popularity wavering that will make them sit up and take notice, not income. Lets not forget Venkys are being told they’re doing a good job, the fans are right behind them, so when season ticket sales fall through the floor they’ll be wanting to know why.

[mustard]

It's fair enough if some people want to stick with Bowyer, but to me it is far riskier than sacking him and bringing in someone else. The reasons people defend him tend to contradict each other also.

Some say he's doing a good job and has brought in some very good players... Then follow this by saying the squad is overrated... So is Bowyer shrewd in the transfer market or not? Spending £1.5mill (incl add-ons) on Duffy, yet persisting with Hanley suggests otherwise. £1million on Marshall who is so injury-prone and hit-and-miss suggests otherwise.

Effectively just as close to relegation as we are to play-offs, with the prospect of losing our best players in summer, yet some expect us to possibly perform better next season? Why? I have no confidence in Bowyer signing the players to fill the voids left by player sales, nor do I have confidence in him filling the voids that he has failed to address for the past few years anyway ie RB.

Some defend him, yet acknowledge that his tactics, selection, subs, etc leave a lot to be desired. Well if he can't get the basics right now after two years, what's to suggest he will get them right next season? Bowyer doesn't seem to even bring out the average, let alone the best, out of this current squad, so with a poorer team, I worry how bad things will get.

I kinda understand the "better the devil you know" argument, however I am almost certain we will be a bottom half team next season under Bowyer, and it's very easy to fall into a relegation battle when your team and manager lack the necessary spine. That's why I think we need to seek a replacement.

[ABBEY]

cheap and easy option proves to me they have no intention or aim for promotion, no idea why but it does bugger belief to be honest.

[Tom]

cheap and easy option proves to me they have no intention or aim for promotion, no idea why but it does bugger belief to be honest.

Probably becuase people like Bowyer and Shaw convince them that making small profits on players is the real aim, failure on the pitch isn't important

Self preservation is the real goal in the dugout and in the directors box

[den]

Even if they give you an answer, what difference does it make? By the way- my answers are yes and nothing, but who really cares?

Some posters are getting far too wound up imo.

I'm not getting wound up at all KH.

I've answered your questions twice and you've ignored me both times, so whats the point?

Its not as black and white as you make it out to be either den and I'm sure you're aware of that.

And why the hell someone isn't allowed to hold this opinion without being rounded on is beyond me!

It's absolutely black and white Gav. They're two questions that 99% of fans would have no trouble answering. I guess United's board asked themselves the same question of Moyes......

Do we want to win the league?

What evidence have we seen that he can get us there?

Answers

Yes

None

As for being rounded on - give over, we're just talking football, nothing else.

[ABBEY]

Do we want to win the league?

What evidence have we seen that he can get us there?

Answers

Yes

None

The answer as fans is yes...as owners it is we don't give a hoot

evidence ..again for fans none as owners plenty of evidence again they don't give a hoot.

[Athlete]

Probably becuase people like Bowyer and Shaw convince them that making small profits on players is the real aim, failure on the pitch isn't important

Self preservation is the real goal in the dugout and in the directors box

As the tumbleweed starts to gather..

The JW upper on Saturday and lot of people in the queue for half time refreshments saying why is Bowyer still in charge?...

Think we know the answer they don't want promotion.. But why when finances are that bad?

What and when is venkyscum end game?

So many questions.. No logical answers

A older guy I was speaking to has had a season ticket since the early 60s said on the way out enough is enough this season is his last with the current setup.

We're losing fans at an alarming rate.. I really think Mrs D is a magician she's made that many dissappear..

cheap and easy option proves to me they have no intention or aim for promotion, no idea why but it does bugger belief to be honest.

There must be an underlying reason..

[ABBEY]

Probably becuase people like Bowyer and Shaw convince them that making small profits on players is the real aim, failure on the pitch isn't important

Self preservation is the real goal in the dugout and in the directors box

I know Tom ,BUT BUT BUT BUT surely they are not that thick that cant do basic maths regards the table and surely they are not thick that they cant see a 2/3 empty stadium . So it begs the question. WHAT IS THE OWNERS OVERALL GOAL?

[gumboots]

I suspect that Gary will be heading out to Pune over the international break, it will be the first opportunity that he has had to have face to face talks with Mrs D since last November.

I would be majorly surprised if she decides to sack him now or over the summer, so it will be a case of over the summer trying to get the club out of the transfer embargo and working on loan deals. The last 3 weeks the scouts who have until now almost exclusively been concentrating on UK talent have been on European scouting missions to Scandinavia, Austria and Germany. Again it suggests that Gary has already begun the planning for next season and must be confident of retaining his position.

We can discuss him being sacked until we are blue in the face, it will not matter a jot what we think as Venky's and Mrs D in particular will do as they please. As I and others have said previously the board at Ewood Park is nothing more than a rubber stamping body, they have no real power or the desire to put forward suggestions to the owners.

I understand this and perhaps it will work out, but what would make them rethink. I know they don't care about fans but surely when there are fewer coming through the tills and then the turnstiles, they will have to realise. Perhaps the wool is being pulled over their eyes currently by those who do attendance figures, but they must ask at some point to see sales figures for season tickets. I know nowt about running a company but I would. It's one of the first things I'd ask about because season ticket sales are a clear indication of long term customer satisfaction. If you can keep long term customers happy then you stand a chance of attracting new people too. A fuller ewood must give a better chance of better things for the team and the club. If it's obvious to business idiots like me, why not to them?

[ABBEY]

If they cant see millions disappearing hand over fist then how are they getting it covered ? washing clothes? bookies ? (not accusation but thinking out loud for logical answers)

I understand this and perhaps it will work out, but what would make them rethink. I know they don't care about fans but surely when there are fewer coming through the tills and then the turnstiles, they will have to realise. Perhaps the wool is being pulled over their eyes currently by those who do attendance figures, but they must ask at some point to see sales figures for season tickets. I know nowt about running a company but I would. It's one of the first things I'd ask about because season ticket sales are a clear indication of long term customer satisfaction. If you can keep long term customers happy then you stand a chance of attracting new people too. A fuller ewood must give a better chance of better things for the team and the club. If it's obvious to business idiots like me, why not to them?

shouldn't be about books though , surely if you own a football club you will see the goals during a game and see empty seats everywhere?

[Gav]

It's absolutely black and white Gav. They're two questions that 99% of fans would have no trouble answering. I guess United's board asked themselves the same question of Moyes......

Do we want to win the league?

What evidence have we seen that he can get us there?

Answers

Yes

None

As for being rounded on - give over, we're just talking football, nothing else.

So whilst the vast majoirty have answered your questions, even though you ignored some of the answers, lets try and have you do the same den

1) Have Venkys made 1 decent decision in 5yrs of being here?

2) What evidence is their that they'll get the next one right?

[savage90]

I would be interested to know GB's opinion of this season, including his expectations and what he thinks of the current squad in terms of ability. He knows them better than anyone and my thinking is, in answering those questions he should effectively confirm his own departure.

[Amo]

So whilst the vast majoirty have answered your questions, even though you ignored some of the answers, lets try and have you do the same den

1) Have Venkys made 1 decent decision in 5yrs of being here?

2) What evidence is their that they'll get the next one right?

As I pointed out to Jbizzle, this line of reasoning is fallacious because you're advocating keeping a manager who Venky's themselves hired.

[martonrover]

So the 'Honourable' Gary still in post, who would've thought it?

A small group of people near me in the Riverside were singing, "Boring, boring Bowyer".

I fancy that number will catch on and the criticism will become more vocal both this season and next.

If he doesn't clear off he deserves everything he gets.

[mustard]

I would be interested to know GB's opinion of this season, including his expectations and what he thinks of the current squad in terms of ability. He knows them better than anyone and my thinking is, in answering those questions he should effectively confirm his own departure.

He might backtrack a little. Throughout pre-season all we heard about was how good the squad was and how we were pushing for play-offs/promotion...

Then the other week he starts mentioning how we "missed the boat" in terms of recruiting people in the summer transfer window... Ummmm.

He's already started using the embargo as an excuse as to why he is short of players at the moment, nothing to do with him signing a load of crocks and seemingly not doing any fitness work down at the Brockhall Holiday Camp.

The players we've been missing are barely first teamers anyway, or at least shouldn't be: Dunn, never plays even when fit. King, was never part of squad when fit except FA cup. Hanley, results improved since his injury and should have never been starting due to horrendous form. Duffy, was dropped for Hanley anyway. Evans, in and out with injuries but possibly our worst CM this season. I think maybe only Lowe and Conway have been missed lately (imo Duffy has been missed but Bowyer clearly thinks differently). Lowe due to the fact he's one of the only players who actually chases people down and Conway since he's one of our only wide men who seems to play consistently despite being hit-and-miss. Marshall is in-and-out with injuries but has been all his career, plus he's glaringly inconsistent.

Constant excuses that never get looked into. Just get taken at face value. Like when he ribbeted on about "big spenders" Bournemouth after they sold Grabban for £3.2mill and signed Wilson for £3.2mill, carefully omitting the fact that Grabban's sale had freed up the funds.

[den]

So whilst the vast majoirty have answered your questions, even though you ignored some of the answers, lets try and have you do the same den

1) Have Venkys made 1 decent decision in 5yrs of being here?

2) What evidence is their that they'll get the next one right?

Noone, except Parson (oh and Abbey) have even tried to answer the questions Gav.

We all want promotion. I can think of around 90 million reasons why it's so important. A minority of posters (it seems) want to keep him on, but can't point to any real evidence whatsoever that he can achieve it. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of their reasoning, but there really doesn't seem to be any. I mean, blow me, lets just stick with any old manager for the moment, what's it matter whether he's any good or not. Doesnt matter who it is, does it?

It also seems that if they want to keep hold of someone who won't get us up, they don't want us to go up. Unless of course you don't want to go up yet - which again is ridiculous.

[rog of the rovers]

I've said for months now that I don't think Bowyer is the man to take us up to the Premier League.

If I were in charge I'd look to change things in the summer, I'd certainly give Bowyer the respect he deserves and offer him a chance to stay in the club, maybe a move back to the youth team. If he turns that down then thats his perogative.

I think that keeps the face of the owners, Bowyer and the clubs reputation.

As for why I think its time for a change is....the complete indifference that is flowing through the club from the board to the fans, no one seems to grasp the severity of the situation. Hemoragging money, our Premier League days are going to be 4 seasons ago and ultimately this season has been a massive step backwards.

Everything was set for Bowyer in the summer, granted no major signings in, but he kept hold of ''HIS'' squad, Gestede, Rhodes, Hanley, Marshall and Cairney all stayed despite supposed interest. Yet by the middle of February our season was over!

The cup run has masked a multitude of problems.

As you know I'm a fan of statistics, and Bowyer is consistent at getting mixed results.

Look at this years performances that have really mattered, against the top clubs going for promotion. The top 8 (Bournemouth, Watford, Boro, Norwich, Derby, Ipswich, Brentford, Wolves)

P15 W1 D5 L9 F15 A27 Pts 8 GD -12

[Gav]

As I pointed out to Jbizzle, this line of reasoning is fallacious because you're advocating keeping a manager who Venky's themselves hired.

Playing the den role for a minute.

Its simple Toppers, just answer the question:

Answers

No

None

99% of the fanbase could answer these simple questions

Noone, except Parson (oh and Abbey) have even tried to answer the questions Gav.

We all want promotion. I can think of around 90 million reasons why it's so important. A minority of posters (it seems) want to keep him on, but can't point to any real evidence whatsoever that he can achieve it. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of their reasoning, but there really doesn't seem to be any. I mean, blow me, lets just stick with any old manager for the moment, what's it matter whether he's any good or not. Doesnt matter who it is, does it?

Just answer the questions den, its simple

answers

No

None