[Archived] Gary Bowyer Discussion

[jim mk2]

Bowyer's game plan worked well today but he will have to be very canny in the replay and it is big test for him. He cannot play the same tactics again because Rodgers is no mug and will have a different game plan himself based on our strengths and weaknesses - for instance we saw the big change in Liverpool in the second half today. Rovers showed what they are capable of at Anfield - the task for Bowyer now is to show the same tactical acumen and motivational skills in the league week after week - if he can do that we might think he is getting somewhere.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Yep, I enjoyed how we made it difficult for Liverpool today but in the replay we'll need to come up with a way to get more ball down the other end.

[JBiz]

Today we were excellent so well done Bowyer.

Obvious question, and this isn't trying to put a dampener on anything, why only the cup games ? So frustrating, fans have said time and time again, we should be doing far better in our league with the squad we have.

Consistency. If you put all our results this season together I'm sure you'd come up WDL pretty much the same. We've reached some heights under GB but never consistently. Unbeaten runs have often contained as many draws as wins, highlighting a problem getting a real winning streak going.

More performances like today in front of big crowds with good teams should bring on players like Henley, cairney, Marshall, Rudy, olsson etc- if we get all of them performing consistently, we will do well in this league.

[Stuart]

Yep, I enjoyed how we made it difficult for Liverpool today but in the replay we'll need to come up with a way to get more ball down the other end.

For the first half of the second half today we completely lost the midfield battle. I even wondered if bringing Henry on for Williamson could have been an option, such was the lack of realistic ones on the bench. I'm still not sure if Taylor on for Marshall is what changed things but it seemed to work for a while.

Personally I thought Cairney did well and wasn't surprised to see him get MoM - very much outside of his comfort zone but worked really hard.

It does seem to me that when Hanley doesn't play that we seem to do better at the back:

Duffy - Kilgallon

Kilgallon - Henry

Kilgallon - Baptiste

They all look like solid partnerships with Killer the common denominator. He can do it with all three (ok, early days with Henry) but he and Hanley - or even Duffy and Hanley don't work. Hanley even brings Duffy down.

I really hope he keeps the armband because captaincy is the only thing keeping Hanley on the team - aside from his relationship with Bowyer. Has it been confirmed that Hanley is injured by the way.

[Athlete]

Lincoln, but correct - not very successfully.

Just read CS book and a very good read it was especially about the lies he was told at Lincoln agter keeping them up

[tomphil]

Credit where it's due he got it right today. They've got to realise that if we are to achieve anything with this team then performances like that and Bournemouth/Sheff Weds away etc need to be every week from the beginning of the season. He's got to get his best 11 on the pitch in the form of a balanced team and stick to it. He also needs to get over his obsession with people like Hanley and leave him out of the team. He wouldn't get half the flak he gets then.

[Proudtobeblue&white]

God forbid Hanley plays on Wednesday!

[tomphil]

God forbid Hanley plays on Wednesday!

Wouldn't be surprised, Maybe he'll end up at right back

[Pedro]

Baptiste can't play so he'll probably get a game if fit.

[West Yorks Rover]

Baptiste can't play so he'll probably get a game if fit.

Very convenient.

[thenodrog]

'Madam Desai has been outstanding,' said Bowyer. 'Without the financial support the family has given to this club over the past few years, I dread to think where the club would have been.'

IMV, absolutely sickening stuff from Bowyer.

Think it confirms that he's just another spineless puppet.

Without their idiocy and with Big Sam / JW still at the club, we'd be almost certainly be in the PL,.

more babybouse stuff. As I see it they were sold a dream (and a pup) they cocked up through a mixture of naivety and crooked advice and currently appear to be attempting to rectify it within the parameters of our status. Regrettable but sh1t does happen. I along with a few others could see this happening 4/5 years ago and said so often enough on here. I even stopped going to ewood then because i couldnt support the obvious sting. Its happened now as predicted but what option is there other than everyone pull together (which obviously isn't happening from the various glory hunters and premier league groupies).

Which bit can you not grasp?

[Jimmy612]

How long has Sutton been a manager ?

Longer than you and at a much higher level I'd wager, Yoda

Bowyer will get credit for the work he has done, and quite rightly IMO. The big question is whether he would be able to take us from this (now frustrating) mid-table security, to a consistent top 6 side capable of challenging. My instinct would tell me that sadly he probably can't; doesn't mean he's done a bad job in the 2 years he's been in charge.

I'm much prouder of this football club now than I was two years ago.

[den]

As I said, it was the same template in the sixties, seventies and eighties so it's nothing new.

You're misleading people about the past there Parson. We never employed coaches as managers, with the main aim being to develop players with the main aim of improving players to sell on. We employed managers with the intention of improving the team and results. We sold players when we either needed the money, or the player wanted out. That's not comparable to whats happening now.

[Parsonblue]

You're misleading people about the past there Parson. We never employed coaches as managers, with the main aim being to develop players with the main aim of improving players to sell on. We employed managers with the intention of improving the team and results. We sold players when we either needed the money, or the player wanted out. That's not comparable to whats happening now.

I beg to differ den but Howard Kendall was only a coach at Stoke City when the Rovers employed him as manager. It was his first managerial appointment. I would also suggest that the situation is exactly the same due to the introduction of FFP. Owners can't just put large amounts of money in without running the risk of huge fines and transfer embargoes. Bowyer is trying to improve the team to take the club forward and return to the Premier League - it was spelt out in numerous interviews over the weekend. However, it is seen as a long term project and in the short term there will have to be selling to try to balance the books and get the club on a level which is in keeping with the revenue streams we have at present. Gates of ten to twelve thousand aren't compatible with playing players £30,000 and £40,000 per week. For me the situation is exactly as it was in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and it's one of the reasons why I believe that in the long term Bowyer is the right man to be manager.

[47er]

You have been writing a narrative for weeks PB, to show that was has happened to us was part of the natural order of things. Jack Walker came and transformed us, then he died. Inevitably without his support we sank to our natural level and here we are.

Its rubbish.

Jack left a legacy which has been trashed. We spent 2 decades in the Premiership, we were secure in mid-table and would have gradually developed under Sam as Bolton had before us. We had manageable debt and if we'd been managed properly as we had been, we'd have been sustainable, especially with the new broadcasting deals.

Its all been thrown away.

Worse it continues to be thrown away and our best chance of a return to the Premiership has gone with it.

The brief is now to buy players to sell on. It was never that. Great day yesterday and shows how much goodwill still exists from supporters. But the owners and the rest of the hangers-on are not worthy of it and there is plenty of further damage yet to be done.

Todays Mirror, "79 million in debt and about to lose half of his team in the summer" (Not the exact quote but close)

[blueboy3333]

You're misleading people about the past there Parson. We never employed coaches as managers, with the main aim being to develop players with the main aim of improving players to sell on. We employed managers with the intention of improving the team and results. We sold players when we either needed the money, or the player wanted out. That's not comparable to whats happening now.

coaches become managers, it happens everywhere. Some are successful. some aren't. When people dismiss Bowyer as just being a coach or a 'bib and cones man' they have lost the argument. All managers start somewhere, Bowyer out-witted one yesterday who used to be youth coach at Reading and Chelsea and was effectively sacked as 1st team boss later on at Reading after only 6 months.

As for your second point, Bowyer HAS improved the team and results, a cursory glance at where we were two years ago and the players who played for us then and now will tell you that. And who said Bowyers remit was to improve players to sell on and not get promotion? Why invent scenario's to argue against? The remit is obviously to do both. Only one of those things has happened so far. Promotion might come given time under Bowyer,but it's a hard division to get out of.

Gestede might be sold in the summer (we need the money) and O'connell has already gone (he wanted out). The reasons for selling our exactly the same as they've always been, even when we were in the Prem.

[Parsonblue]

Jack left a legacy which has been trashed. We spent 2 decades in the Premiership, we were secure in mid-table and would have gradually developed under Sam as Bolton had before us. We had manageable debt and if we'd been managed properly as we had been, we'd have been sustainable, especially with the new broadcasting deals.

Its all been thrown away.

I don't disagree with that 47er. But we are dealing with the here and now and not what might have been. We are not a Premier League club now. We have got small gates at the moment. We have got decreased revenue streams at the moment. We have to deal with a transfer embargo at present. We have got debt and players will have to be sold and the books balanced. Other players will have to be brought in. Younger players will have to be developed. I agree it's not what anyone wanted but it's happened. We have to deal with it as best we can. I believe the present manager, all things considered, is doing a decent job. The owners seem to be sticking with it in terms of financial support within the boundaries of FFP. It will be a long haul back but that doesn't mean you throw your hands up in the air in despair and walk away from the club. Football clubs, not just the Rovers, need support in tough times most of all.

[davulsukur]

Bowyers next job must surely be to get a new contract sorted for Kilgallon?

[blueboy3333]

Bowyers next job must surely be to get a new contract sorted for Kilgallon?

you'd hope so, and King (although he's a risk cos he's never fit).

I got the impression from one of the LT articles that FFP is going to be a factor in deciding who gets a contract. Will Kilgallon take a pay cut etc? King and Killa were signed when we were throwing a bit more money at it so they may be on wages that aren't appropriate now. Only guessing mind.

[RevidgeBlue]

You're misleading people about the past there Parson. We never employed coaches as managers, with the main aim being to develop players with the main aim of improving players to sell on. We employed managers with the intention of improving the team and results. We sold players when we either needed the money, or the player wanted out. That's not comparable to whats happening now

I don't disagree that we possibly need a more experienced manager at the helm den but I completely disagree that players are being or have been bought specifically to sell on.

You're quite right to say that in the pre Jack days and Walker Trust days we sold when we needed the money or if a player wanted out. Now we seemingly ONLY sell if a player desperately wants out.

How else do you explain the fact we completely snubbed what many would consider to be very good offers for Rhodes and Gestede last summer and Christmas respectively? I admit FFP might force our hand in summer .but having made mistakes in the running of the Club which have put us in the position we currently find ourselves, the situation is now out of their hands to some extent. Unless someone successfully challenges the (ridiculous) regulations.

[davulsukur]

you'd hope so, and King (although he's a risk cos he's never fit).

I got the impression from one of the LT articles that FFP is going to be a factor in deciding who gets a contract. Will Kilgallon take a pay cut etc? King and Killa were signed when we were throwing a bit more money at it so they may be on wages that aren't appropriate now. Only guessing mind.

It's as good a guess as any.

Not sure what the rules are regarding new contracts but out of all the players who are out of contract in the summer, he is the one we would miss the most.

I would also get King signed up if its possible, even though he is hit and miss, we are not going to find another pacey player like him for nothing if we are still under an embargo, which is very likely.

[onlyonejackwalker]

I don't disagree with that 47er. But we are dealing with the here and now and not what might have been. We are not a Premier League club now. We have got small gates at the moment. We have got decreased revenue streams at the moment. We have to deal with a transfer embargo at present. We have got debt and players will have to be sold and the books balanced. Other players will have to be brought in. Younger players will have to be developed. I agree it's not what anyone wanted but it's happened. We have to deal with it as best we can. I believe the present manager, all things considered, is doing a decent job. The owners seem to be sticking with it in terms of financial support within the boundaries of FFP. It will be a long haul back but that doesn't mean you throw your hands up in the air in despair and walk away from the club. Football clubs, not just the Rovers, need support in tough times most of all.

May I ask how making a couple of million on Gestede, a couple of million on Rhodes (doubtful) and possibly a few hundred grand on others will balance our accounts when losing two million per month and recognising we are already 80 million in the red? Am I missing someone worth 80 million plus? Simply put, whilst we continue to plod about in this division and pay average players ridiculous amounts of 10 to 15k per week and the likes of Rhodes 40k per week there is absolutely no chance we can be self-sustaining at this level with gates around 13k.

The only hope for the Rovers and many others of a functioning business model is to be in the Premier League to benefit from the circa 100 million turnover guaranteed. Therefore a manager that can take us there is urgently required. Not one who conceeds more than we score as we stagnate in mid-table.

A bit of lipstick and rouge fropm the cup run does not gloss over the poor form and lack of progress in our league campaign.

[den]

I beg to differ den but Howard Kendall was only a coach at Stoke City when the Rovers employed him as manager. It was his first managerial appointment.

I don't know if you're intentionally missing the whole point here PB. I suspect you are.

Of course Kendall was a coach at Stoke and this was his first managerial appointment. No ones saying anything otherwise, but Kendall was taken on, just like every other managerial appointment in the club's history, to first and foremost improve results which ever way they could. He wasn't employed to take on freebies with the intention of selling them for a small profit. That's a fundamental difference in the mandate of the owners. It's also a very important difference and in my opinion, entirely the wrong way to go about things.

Kendall, Saxton, Furphy, lee etc weren't about how much the squad was worth, they were about performances and results.

As for developing players - well players are coached from the very young age that they join a pro club. Coaching/player development is the job of the coaches and academy staff. The manager should be there for one reason only, - to use the players at their disposal and to get results. Player value should have very little, or no bearing on his approach.

I also remember in the years you're talking about, the Radfords, birchenalls, Ashton's, coddingtons, mcnamees etc. not exactly the names to suggest that adding value was foremost in the managers aims. There's nothing wrong with developing players in order to generate profit, but the players of that era that did earn rovers real money were the likes of hird and Bailey, - players developed through the youth team.

[DE.]

The manager should be there for one reason only, - to use the players at their disposal and to get results. Player value should have very little, or no bearing on his approach.

Absolutely correct. If one of Bowyer's key aims is to bring in/coach players to be sold at a higher value he should either be a coach or a scout. The manager's only aim should be doing everything possible to achieve victory in as many matches as possible.

[yoda]

Longer than you and at a much higher level I'd wager, Yoda

Bowyer will get credit for the work he has done, and quite rightly IMO. The big question is whether he would be able to take us from this (now frustrating) mid-table security, to a consistent top 6 side capable of challenging. My instinct would tell me that sadly he probably can't; doesn't mean he's done a bad job in the 2 years he's been in charge.

I'm much prouder of this football club now than I was two years ago.

Ah yes, the old " if you didn't go you can't comment " routine I have been watching football a lot longer than Sutton has been on the planet.

The point I was making was about how qualified is Sutton to say GB has done a fantastic job. GB has done some good things for sure no argument from me on that point.

You have hit the nail on the head though, is he good enough for the next stage ?

What he has done or not done to get us to this stage should be a minor consideration if we are indeed determined to get back to the PL.

GB has been shown to be tactically lacking this season hence mid table "stability"

On a few occasions he has got right and rightly praised for it like at Liverpool. Is he going to be able to do it on a consistent basis though, will the owners have the patience to wait and see, will the supporters get over the frustrations and have patience with him ? The reducing attendances suggest not at the moment.