[Archived] Gary Bowyer Discussion

[tomphil]

I would be interested to know GB's opinion of this season, including his expectations and what he thinks of the current squad in terms of ability. He knows them better than anyone and my thinking is, in answering those questions he should effectively confirm his own departure.

He'll flail away and grasp at anything for an excuse like he was doing between Christmas and a few weeks ago until the little upturn plus cup run took the heat of a little and gave him a valid claim about injuries and fatigue. The latest I see him keep dropping in now is the embargo, as IF we were going to sign a load of players just to beat Brighton anyway . Wouldn't have mentioned it had they scored the own goal and we scraped the win.

[JBiz]

I think this idea of Bowyer earning the chance to manage us is complete nonsense. Things are different under a caretaker manager (think supply teacher at school).

It should have been a case of 'thanks for being caretaker manager, we'll find someone permanent now, back to the academy Mr Bowyer'.

But, no, this is Venky's, they just couldn't be assed to find an actual manager, or have the executive board do so for them.....

No they just stumble on the next person who will travel 5000 miles every 6 months to be told what to say most likely.

Factor that in- your entire selection of candidates is likely cut down to 1/5th.

GB followed absolute horrific circumstances and actually improved it somewhat-

Whether he has improved us since Appleton, that's your opinion. I'm still very happy that we had him to keep us in the league but he hasn't done what was ultimately needed and therefore like all other Rao managers his appointment is a failure.

I can't understand how this invalidates any argument that they will likely choose someone else not up to the job? If anything it strengthens it- GB is another example if how badly our delightful incumbents run their business.

[Parsonblue]

Probably becuase people like Bowyer and Shaw convince them that making small profits on players is the real aim, failure on the pitch isn't important

Self preservation is the real goal in the dugout and in the directors box

Try looking at it from another point Tom. Take the view that Mrs. Desai simply took advice on buying the club and everything that followed from a series of agents. The result has been a catastrophic collapse in their investment which has cost them fortunes. She then puts Shebby in charge but that costs her just as much. She stumbles, almost by accident, on Bowyer, and finds someone who doesn't want to spend millions but wants to opt for a longer term approach of rebuilding the club from the ground up. To return to what we were - a trading club where a player is sold to fund bringing others in. To put money into the Academy - which they have done - and try to develop more of our own. Of course, there is a debt that needs to be address and running costs have to be brought under control because of FFP and the embargo. But compared to what has gone on before it is no surprise that she is more receptive to Bowyer's plans for the future than simply throwing more good money after bad. Clearly the owner and Desai have a good working relationship and from what was written about her when they took over her dealings with Bowyer would mirror how she deals with her other businesses in that she deals with those on the shop floor rather than guys in suits.

[tomphil]

I can think of just one reason why the owners persist with Bowyer, which IMO is the same reason they stuck with Kean

They are still getting the team sheet the night before the game and amending it accordingly

If this is the case , then we are well b truly goosed

Can bets be taken on team line ups ? Hard to guess the selection game on game under GB even when everyone is avail and the previous team played well and won. Maybe they are playing a little game amongst their own betting syndicate ? Or maybe it's just Balaji & son playing real life championship manager.

[K-Hod]

I really don't see anything in this Venky's picking the team lark at all. Even if it were true, they'd have to be the indecisive goons in the world.

Plus, I know it's nonsense, because them picking the team would indicate that they gave a sh1t about the club!!!

[RevidgeBlue]

I suspect that Gary will be heading out to Pune over the international break, it will be the first opportunity that he has had to have face to face talks with Mrs D since last November.

I would be majorly surprised if she decides to sack him now or over the summer, so it will be a case of over the summer trying to get the club out of the transfer embargo and working on loan deals. The last 3 weeks the scouts who have until now almost exclusively been concentrating on UK talent have been on European scouting missions to Scandinavia, Austria and Germany. Again it suggests that Gary has already begun the planning for next season and must be confident of retaining his position.

We can discuss him being sacked until we are blue in the face, it will not matter a jot what we think as Venky's and Mrs D in particular will do as they please. As I and others have said previously the board at Ewood Park is nothing more than a rubber stamping body, they have no real power or the desire to put forward suggestions to the owners.

The thing you don't mention there Kamy is the assumption that we will still be here next season, which means the owners will still be here backing us which has to be good news for most imo. Whilst the situation is the fault of the owners you have to wonder why they continue pouring milions down a black hole every year and keeping the Club in existence when they are positively reviled by many for doing so. Hopefully it's out of a sense of pride and a determination to put right what they did wrong.

However I fell that support will once again be all for nothing if GB is allowed to stay another season as manager. One or two people cite the fear of the unknown as a reason for keeping him but I don't honestly think anyone else could have done any worse with this squad this season. Going on the home games I can't recall a single game where we've played well for 90 mins this season. The best I can remember is Bournemouth at home when buoyed by the news Rhodes wasn't being sold to Hull we roared into a 3-0 HT lead. Even then we got the cigars out second half and nearly contrived to throw the game away, eventually clinging on 3-2.

It's a bit like saying Moyes did well finishing 7th at Man Ure as someone else coming in might have finished even lower. You shouldn't be finishing in that position with those particular players in the first place. Same with us, 10-14 points out of the play offs at various times.

[ABBEY]

Try looking at it from another point Tom. Take the view that Mrs. Desai simply took advice on buying the club and everything that followed from a series of agents. The result has been a catastrophic collapse in their investment which has cost them fortunes. She then puts Shebby in charge but that costs her just as much. She stumbles, almost by accident, on Bowyer, and finds someone who doesn't want to spend millions but wants to opt for a longer term approach of rebuilding the club from the ground up. To return to what we were - a trading club where a player is sold to fund bringing others in. To put money into the Academy - which they have done - and try to develop more of our own. Of course, there is a debt that needs to be address and running costs have to be brought under control because of FFP and the embargo. But compared to what has gone on before it is no surprise that she is more receptive to Bowyer's plans for the future than simply throwing more good money after bad. Clearly the owner and Desai have a good working relationship and from what was written about her when they took over her dealings with Bowyer would mirror how she deals with her other businesses in that she deals with those on the shop floor rather than guys in suits.

IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO THE IDIOTS IN INDIA BEING THICK AS CHICK @#/? AND NOT HAVING A CLUE ABOUT BLACKBURN ROVERS.

Can bets be taken on team line ups ? Hard to guess the selection game on game under GB even when everyone is avail and the previous team played well and won. Maybe they are playing a little game amongst their own betting syndicate ? Or maybe it's just Balaji & son playing real life championship manager.

There are spread bets on team totals of shirt numbers added together.

[RevidgeBlue]

I think people are harsh on JR. No one had these complaints last season or the season before when we weren't so focused on hoofball. Rhodes isn't going to win battles with 6'5 centre halves. Hell, even Gestede is suffering with this at times as our lump-it tactics get found out. I think he gets a hard time, especially since he's actually decent when the ball is played into feet. He always looks to collect it, lay it wide and move.

Hooray. Someone else actually watches the games instead of lazily falling onto the "Rhodes is crap outside the area" bandwagon. The other point his critics never mention is that he is always making excellent early runs but our useless midfield, probably don't even see him let alone have the ability to pick him out with a pass.

[Andyblue2]

Try looking at it from another point Tom. Take the view that Mrs. Desai simply took advice on buying the club and everything that followed from a series of agents. The result has been a catastrophic collapse in their investment which has cost them fortunes. She then puts Shebby in charge but that costs her just as much. She stumbles, almost by accident, on Bowyer, and finds someone who doesn't want to spend millions but wants to opt for a longer term approach of rebuilding the club from the ground up. To return to what we were - a trading club where a player is sold to fund bringing others in. To put money into the Academy - which they have done - and try to develop more of our own. Of course, there is a debt that needs to be address and running costs have to be brought under control because of FFP and the embargo. But compared to what has gone on before it is no surprise that she is more receptive to Bowyer's plans for the future than simply throwing more good money after bad. Clearly the owner and Desai have a good working relationship and from what was written about her when they took over her dealings with Bowyer would mirror how she deals with her other businesses in that she deals with those on the shop floor rather than guys in suits.

Pass me the sick bag

Hooray. Someone else actually watches the games instead of lazily falling onto the "Rhodes is crap outside the area" bandwagon. The other point his critics never mention is that he is always making excellent early runs but our useless midfield, probably don't even see him let alone have the ability to pick him out with a pass.

JR doesn't play with power or speed and fails to latch onto balls and harass central defenders because if this limitation. I think that frustrates the watching crowd

[RevidgeBlue]

Try looking at it from another point Tom. Take the view that Mrs. Desai simply took advice on buying the club and everything that followed from a series of agents. The result has been a catastrophic collapse in their investment which has cost them fortunes. She then puts Shebby in charge but that costs her just as much. She stumbles, almost by accident, on Bowyer, and finds someone who doesn't want to spend millions but wants to opt for a longer term approach of rebuilding the club from the ground up. To return to what we were - a trading club where a player is sold to fund bringing others in. To put money into the Academy - which they have done - and try to develop more of our own. Of course, there is a debt that needs to be address and running costs have to be brought under control because of FFP and the embargo. But compared to what has gone on before it is no surprise that she is more receptive to Bowyer's plans for the future than simply throwing more good money after bad. Clearly the owner and Desai have a good working relationship and from what was written about her when they took over her dealings with Bowyer would mirror how she deals with her other businesses in that she deals with those on the shop floor rather than guys in suits.

Promising strategy in theory Parson, but surely it all falls down when our manager won't even give any of our youngsters 5 mins on the pitch?

I find this astonishing given our overall financial position and the fact that the youth team levels are where Bowyer came from. Any youngster being promoted to the first team is going to get a free ride off the fans. If they do well they'll be treated as a hero by the fans and if it doesn't quite come off the fans will excuse him on the basis of his inexperience.

[K-Hod]

Hooray. Someone else actually watches the games instead of lazily falling onto the "Rhodes is crap outside the area" bandwagon. The other point his critics never mention is that he is always making excellent early runs but our useless midfield, probably don't even see him let alone have the ability to pick him out with a pass.

Make that one more here! Rudy's worse in terms of his laziness for me.....

[Parsonblue]

Promising strategy in theory Parson, but surely it all falls down when our manager won't even give any of our youngsters 5 mins on the pitch?

I find this astonishing given our overall financial position and the fact that the youth team levels are where Bowyer came from. Any youngster being promoted to the first team is going to get a free ride off the fans. If they do well they'll be treated as a hero by the fans and if it doesn't quite come off the fans will excuse him on the basis of his inexperience.

To be honest Rev I wouldn't have put any youngster on the pitch on Saturday. The crowd would have booed any misplaced pass and it could have totally destroyed their confidence. Remember how Wilcox was treated when he first came into the team, it wasn't good. Lowe and Hanley get a fair amount of stick for any error.

In truth, many of our most promising youngsters are still quite new to Under-21 football and certainly not ready for the first team at the moment. Mahoney, Green, Lenihan and O'Sullivan are the ones most likely to get a run this season. Rittenberg has gone backwards and I suspect will be on his way in the summer. Raya is an excellent goalkeeping prospect.

[mustard]

No its not a shame. It is pleasing he is a very clinical (baby-lining) striker. However I am much more concerned about the team, all the players and its performance, not wrapped up in the efforts of one individual player. Some fans get all misty eyed he scores over 20 goals a season as we finish mid-table yet again. For me its largely irrelevant who scores as long as the team wins and the 8 million and 40k per week waxed on him has been a total waste of money when taken in a wider context.

Ah, hoofball is the problem for Rhodes this season is it? But when he scored 27 goals it wasn't? So the entire team must have been geared up to getting the best out of Jordan as we flirted with relegation that season. As long as JR is doing well thats all that matters....

Rhodes kept us up singlehandedly? He must be some player. See my comment above. Rhodes obviously didn't keep us up all on his lonesome. Neither did Bowyer. Someone must have passed to him, crossed for him, or made space for him to create the chance to score. Maybe even protected the lead he gave? You win and lose as a team as I imagine you already know.

The money spent on Rhodes is gone, it's in the past, get over it. It happened and as others have reported, had we not brought Rhodes in, that money wouldn't have been invested elsewhere so it's largely irrelevant.

Surely you must see that the football has gradually moved more towards hoofball as time has passed? This year we play it more than ever, likely due to the prominence of Gestede and the inclusion of Brown. I don't think the hoofball we play even suits Gestede as he often wins the aerial battle to no avail. I think playing the ball on the floor coupled with whipping in crosses would see the team improve as a whole.

I am not necessarily saying Rhodes kept us up single-handedly, but the football in 2012/13 was poor and he often scored the one chance that came our way, enough to grab the points necessary to keep us up. We didn't gear the team to suit him (which is what? Putting the ball in the box? What a terrible tactical idea eh?!), we had a poor, underperforming team who luckily had a striker who helped drag us out the mire. Of course it's a team effort but if we had a lesser striker that season I am almost certain we'd have gone down.

This year our football is geared towards target men and Rhodes has had a poor season by his standards, yet he is still our top scorer and one of our top assisters in the league. This says a lot IMO. Whilst I agree he isn't strong nor quick and of course has flaws to his game, he isn't that terrible on the ball, I just think the football we play truly lets him down, as well as a number of others. Gestede doesn't get involved in link-up play as much as JR, he doesn't work as hard, he's just of course more useful when all our team do is lump it upfield as he's got more chance of competing with a 6'5 centre half.

Of course the team performance is more important, however it isn't our strikers that are costing us points. If Bowyer set the team up in the correct manner, didn't employ such wasteful tactics and actually had the tactical acumen to make changes that positively influence a game, we would be performing better and the strikers would flourish. Behind Rhodes and Gestede we have no one who is pulling their weight in attacking terms (don't get me started on the defence).

I think you and some others focus too much of your attention blaming Rhodes because of his transfer fee, instead of focusing on the real issues with out squad.

The thing you don't mention there Kamy is the assumption that we will still be here next season, which means the owners will still be here backing us which has to be good news for most imo. Whilst the situation is the fault of the owners you have to wonder why they continue pouring milions down a black hole every year and keeping the Club in existence when they are positively reviled by many for doing so. Hopefully it's out of a sense of pride and a determination to put right what they did wrong.

However I fell that support will once again be all for nothing if GB is allowed to stay another season as manager. One or two people cite the fear of the unknown as a reason for keeping him but I don't honestly think anyone else could have done any worse with this squad this season. Going on the home games I can't recall a single game where we've played well for 90 mins this season. The best I can remember is Bournemouth at home when buoyed by the news Rhodes wasn't being sold to Hull we roared into a 3-0 HT lead. Even then we got the cigars out second half and nearly contrived to throw the game away, eventually clinging on 3-2.

It's a bit like saying Moyes did well finishing 7th at Man Ure as someone else coming in might have finished even lower. You shouldn't be finishing in that position with those particular players in the first place. Same with us, 10-14 points out of the play offs at various times.

Spot on

[onlyonejackwalker]

Hooray. Someone else actually watches the games instead of lazily falling onto the "Rhodes is crap outside the area" bandwagon. The other point his critics never mention is that he is always making excellent early runs but our useless midfield, probably don't even see him let alone have the ability to pick him out with a pass.

I watch the games, but strangely don't need anyone else to confirm what my eyes show me most weeks. I've rarely seen a worse striker outside of the box and the fact that average defenders can often play him out of games demonstrates this point to most.

Excellent early runs are not as excellent as made out when defenders with more pace can easily recover and still be first to the ball. Especially when lacking the strength to retain possession if actually receiving the ball and lacking the skill, trick, or burst of pace to beat your man when then confronted one on one. Watching King recently turn defences and running into space has sadly been one of the few higlights of this miserable season demonstrating how our play is badly affected with zero pace upfront.

Maybe as Roy Keane said the trick is focusing on what Rhodes can do, not what he cannot do, but at this level especially away from home effectively playing with ten men certainly doesn't help our results or league position. A fact that Bowyer seems to have grasped as the season progresses.

[tomphil]

To be honest Rev I wouldn't have put any youngster on the pitch on Saturday. The crowd would have booed any misplaced pass and it could have totally destroyed their confidence. Remember how Wilcox was treated when he first came into the team, it wasn't good. Lowe and Hanley get a fair amount of stick for any error.

In truth, many of our most promising youngsters are still quite new to Under-21 football and certainly not ready for the first team at the moment. Mahoney, Green, Lenihan and O'Sullivan are the ones most likely to get a run this season. Rittenberg has gone backwards and I suspect will be on his way in the summer. Raya is an excellent goalkeeping prospect.

Wilcox came in at a bad time and way before he was ready, the wind nearly blew him over. Going off your assumption we'll never be able to blood anyone again then. Must have missed the likes of Gallagher, Douglas, Derbyshire etc etc who all got good support, often when they weren't really up to it and who got an easier ride from the crowd than others because they were young lads and didn't arrive for a fee or reputation.

Lowe and Hanley have had stick because they have consistently been selected and played whilst not performing well at all and often keeping out better options, simple as that.

Please tell me is there anything at Ewood that you won't blame the crowd for ? I'd be amazed if so.

[mustard]

Pass me the sick bag

JR doesn't play with power or speed and fails to latch onto balls and harass central defenders because if this limitation. I think that frustrates the watching crowd

Fails to latch onto balls played nowhere near him? No wonder.

It frustrates me seeing Gestede head the ball to no one. I don't blame him though, I blame the hopeless hoofball tactics.

[mustard]

I watch the games, but strangely don't need anyone else to confirm what my eyes show me most weeks. I've rarely seen a worse striker outside of the box and the fact that average defenders can often play him out of games demonstrates this point to most.

Excellent early runs are not as excellent as made out when defenders with more pace can easily recover and still be first to the ball. Especially when lacking the strength to retain possession if actually receiving the ball and lacking the skill, trick, or burst of pace to beat your man when then confronted one on one. Watching King recently turn defences and running into space has sadly been one of the few higlights of this miserable season demonstrating how our play is badly affected with zero pace upfront.

Maybe as Roy Keane said the trick is focusing on what Rhodes can do, not what he cannot do, but at this level especially away from home effectively playing with ten men certainly doesn't help our results or league position. A fact that Bowyer seems to have grasped as the season progresses.

Playing with ten men? What utter rubbish. I doubt our record is any better when we have played Gestede up top on his own and Gestede doesn't seem to have the footballing intelligence to provide link up play and chances from what I've seen, he's just bigger and stronger in the air than Rhodes and possibly slightly quicker, however he isn't as good at providing chances for others (hence less assists) and his movement and finishing aren't as good.

You clearly have some sort of vendetta, so much so that your eyes deceive you into thinking Rhodes is the pinnacle of our issues.

Falcao is neither fast, strong nor tall. He isn't great outside the box but he knows how to finish and at his previous clubs this wasn't an issue when he was banging them in. However, now he's in a United team that love long ball football he looks poor, yet Fellaini even looks ok as a striker for them as he wins the headers...

[Parsonblue]

Wilcox came in at a bad time and way before he was ready, the wind nearly blew him over. Going off your assumption we'll never be able to blood anyone again then. Must have missed the likes of Gallagher, Douglas, Derbyshire etc etc who all got good support, often when they weren't really up to it and who got an easier ride from the crowd than others because they were young lads and didn't arrive for a fee or reputation.

Lowe and Hanley have had stick because they have consistently been selected and played whilst not performing well at all and often keeping out better options, simple as that.

Please tell me is there anything at Ewood that you won't blame the crowd for ? I'd be amazed if so.

Try reading what I post. The team played poorly on Saturday and the crowd voiced their opinions and rightly so. However, it wasn't the day to introduce two young lads. So what you are saying is that it is fine for the crowd to give stick to any player that they don't particularly think ought to be in the team? So if Mahoney and Lenihan were introduced, did poorly, it would be fine to boo them?

[tomphil]

Try reading what I post. The team played poorly on Saturday and the crowd voiced their opinions and rightly so. However, it wasn't the day to introduce two young lads. So what you are saying is that it is fine for the crowd to give stick to any player that they don't particularly think ought to be in the team? So if Mahoney and Lenihan were introduced, did poorly, it would be fine to boo them?

It doesn't work like that does it. Try reading what I posted. As always in your selective posting you sighted a couple of players that had some stick but omitted all the other young players who the crowd have stuck with even when some weren't up too much at the time. You deliberately cited Gaz's two favs as getting stick yet we all know why they've come in for stick and to my knowledge neither had any grief in the ground in their early days. Introducing a youngster or two later on in the game on Sat would more than likely been seen as a breath of fresh air by the crowd and give us something to cheer. Nobody in their right mind would expect much from them.

[mustard]

Try reading what I post. The team played poorly on Saturday and the crowd voiced their opinions and rightly so. However, it wasn't the day to introduce two young lads. So what you are saying is that it is fine for the crowd to give stick to any player that they don't particularly think ought to be in the team? So if Mahoney and Lenihan were introduced, did poorly, it would be fine to boo them?

So you think we should only give them a shot if we are winning and there is thus less chance of them being on the pitch when the team is booed off?

[RevidgeBlue]

Try reading what I post. The team played poorly on Saturday and the crowd voiced their opinions and rightly so. However, it wasn't the day to introduce two young lads. So what you are saying is that it is fine for the crowd to give stick to any player that they don't particularly think ought to be in the team? So if Mahoney and Lenihan were introduced, did poorly, it would be fine to boo them?

The crowd wouldn't though would they as I'm sure you're well aware. You mentioned Lowe and Hanley getting stick but they have a lot of games under their belt now.

I can't recall Lowe getting any stick at all when he first came into the side and performed with some credit at right back.

Glad to hear you think Raya is an excellent prospect. I understand from someone who knows him he was extremely miffed when Steele was brought in making it 6 keepers at the Club at that point I think.

With every justification imo.

Edit: Just on your other point it would be wonderful in an ideal world to only blood youngsters when we were 3-0 up with half an hour to go. In the real world it just isn't like that. You have to introduce them as and when ou think they're ready regardless of the score. They'd never get a chance if they had to wait for this lot to get 3-0 up.

[Stuart]

Or someone protecting his own interests, currying favour with all who arrive with one eye ultimately on the end game and the ultimate prize. Mmm.

I honestly don't believe that. He stepped in as a caretaker having been outside of that circle. Having done a decent job in keeping us up - thanks to Rhodes' goals - he was offered the gig full time.

I just think that now that he is the main man he is doing his best and he genuinely feels that he is doing a good job. He probably makes excuses to himself all the time and will have friends and allies reminding him of the circumstances when he took over and the current conditions he is operating under as further reasons to convince him that he is doing a good job. I expect there is nobody at the club who will challenge his position - Emporer's New Clothes style. We are a basket case of a club with the manager answerable to no-one.

I see a guy who has done his best and is now a little in denial about the reasons for failure, or doesn't believe he is failing. His best isn't good enough for what the club needs but it's his best all the same.

The bit I don't understand is Venkys' expectations. If one of their factory managers had spent millions, missed important targets impacting the future sustainability of the factory, and halved the customer base, they'd surely not put up with it. It's as though we are someone's side project. Maybe one family member is being humoured by another in order to keep them away from the rest of the business?

[DE.]

Let's face it, if they can't handle a little crowd noise they aren't going to make it anyway, are they?

[Stuart]

Try looking at it from another point Tom. Take the view that Mrs. Desai simply took advice on buying the club and everything that followed from a series of agents. The result has been a catastrophic collapse in their investment which has cost them fortunes. She then puts Shebby in charge but that costs her just as much. She stumbles, almost by accident, on Bowyer, and finds someone who doesn't want to spend millions but wants to opt for a longer term approach of rebuilding the club from the ground up. To return to what we were - a trading club where a player is sold to fund bringing others in. To put money into the Academy - which they have done - and try to develop more of our own. Of course, there is a debt that needs to be address and running costs have to be brought under control because of FFP and the embargo. But compared to what has gone on before it is no surprise that she is more receptive to Bowyer's plans for the future than simply throwing more good money after bad. Clearly the owner and Desai have a good working relationship and from what was written about her when they took over her dealings with Bowyer would mirror how she deals with her other businesses in that she deals with those on the shop floor rather than guys in suits.

That's fine but you've shrewdly worded "return to what we were" omitting the term "a Premier League club". That should be Venkys aim. Once they depart we will have ZERO chance of that anyway.

[ABBEY]

To be honest Rev I wouldn't have put any youngster on the pitch on Saturday. The crowd would have booed any misplaced pass and it could have totally destroyed their confidence. Remember how Wilcox was treated when he first came into the team, it wasn't good. Lowe and Hanley get a fair amount of stick for any error.

In truth, many of our most promising youngsters are still quite new to Under-21 football and certainly not ready for the first team at the moment. Mahoney, Green, Lenihan and O'Sullivan are the ones most likely to get a run this season. Rittenberg has gone backwards and I suspect will be on his way in the summer. Raya is an excellent goalkeeping prospect.

Them there bad fans again