[Archived] Gary Bowyer Discussion

[Athlete]

I just wanted to confirm that this wasn't a serious comment, Yoda....

Talking hypothetical I think but the stats don't lie.. So that must be BRFC rightful level

[47er]

Can't believe you took the time to even type this message - nothing to do with anything other than stoking the fire.

I can't believe I took 45 seconds of my life to bloody respond to it.[/quote

And your post was exactly how useful?

[K-Hod]

So, Gary Bowyer then?

[thenodrog]

Yep that's the way. Ignore the message, attack the messenger and try to drive him away. I thought this was an MB for all fans of all opinions?

Eh? Whats that all about?

Who have I attacked and driven away by that post? I commented mildly to two old mb sweats whom I have conversed with for years. We all understand one another to a degree and I can assure you neither of whom will ever be driven away by anything I say. After that you've had a swipe at jimmy612 for little reason. Wrong time of the month isn it 47er?

[47er]

No, can't be bothered. Stuck up for Den and starting to feel like he does "is it worth it?"

"Time of the month"-----whadda guy!!

[den]

No, can't be bothered. Stuck up for Den and starting to feel like he does "is it worth it?"

"Time of the month"-----whadda guy!!

Gord asked for my thoughts on whether we could bring in a better manager than Bowyer. I did that and got told it was "waffle"

Guess that's because he didn't like the answer.

So yeah, I do wonder if it's worth posting anything any more ( not because of that, but in general) I think we all feel that way though.

[thenodrog]

Gord asked for my thoughts on whether we could bring in a better manager than Bowyer. I did that and got told it was "waffle"

Guess that's because he didn't like the answer.

So yeah, I do wonder if it's worth posting anything any more ( not because of that, but in general) I think we all feel that way though.

You've quoted me incorrectly there den, the term I used was "cop out". I didn't like the answer because there wasn't one. Just an exercise in theorising without any suggestions.

In your previous post you mentioned our good managers in the dark days e.g

Gordon Lee was good, up and coming manager who came from Port Vale I think. His problem with us would be that our members (and I include you here) wouldn't give him a chance as he is not an experienced 'name' . Not only that but he played an Allardyce style and our spoilt generation wouldn't have that would they?

Jim Smith ... ditto. Played marvellous football eventually and damned near got us into the top division but he'd be written off here before he started because he was another unknown and came from Colchester Utd. Who on earth would give him a chance here when he first came and started slowly?

Howard Kendall did exceptionally well and had been a top player but how many Prem players accept the role of player manager these days? The answer is not many cos not many need to. Most thought Roy Keane and Stuart Pearce would make great managers but they both bombed a number of times. The nearest example we have to HIK would of course be Mark Hughes but you and many others have stated that you are not prepared to accept novice managers.

Bobby Saxton... came from Plymouth which again would be no good for you. Loyal but imo one dimensional and not good in front of the camera's. Prob the best we could afford at the time. He gave his all but it was never quite enough. Remind you of anyone?

Full marks to the Chairmen who appointed these people but back then we knew our place and accepted their gambles, not sure such wild card appointments would receive the same support these days. How about you? Not only that but these were interspersed with the likes of Iley, Pickering and Richard Dinnis who were basically poor appointments.

Flip the coin and the big name charlies back then Johnny Carey (2nd time) and Eddie Quigley left pretty awful records.

Personally I don't know what to suggest because there really is no guarantee that we will get better than Bowyer and probably every chance that we will get worse.

Dunno why I posted all that. den, 49er you two Paranoid Androids. Was it worth it?

[mustard]

Personally I don't know what to suggest because there really is no guarantee that we will get better than Bowyer and probably every chance that we will get worse.

And so do you think sticking with Bowyer forever is the way forward? At what point do you turn around and say "ok, enough is enough, let's gamble"? Do you wait til we are bottom half of the table or relegation places?

And then what? Battle to find a manager when the squad is decimated and the rebuild job is even harder, with little chance of the manager being able to come in and succeed? Part of me does understand your logic/fear. However, by all accounts Bowyer isn't getting the best out of this squad and hasn't for a while.

The first scenario is you think Bowyer is a good recruiter and a good tactician. For me, I don't see how anyone could think this considering the selections, tactical decisions, subs etc but this would explain your desire to stick with him through thick and thin.

Second scenario. If you think Bowyer is a good recruiter and not adept tactically then you would have to say he is under-performing in his tactical/managerial duties. We are all in agreement we will likely lose some of our best players in summer, which then means Bowyer would have to bring out more in the players than he is currently doing to even achieve mid-table, which could very easily lead to a relegation scrap. Do you think he is capable of squeezing more out of a depleted squad, considering our mediocrity with the squad now?

Third scenario. If your argument is that the squad he's assembled isn't that great but Bowyer is doing ok tactically, then obviously his recruitment isn't up to scratch, bearing in mind he's inherited some quality players and spent around £3million on building his team. If this is the case, then how can you trust him to make the correct signings in summer?

Or final scenario, if you think his recruitment hasn't been great and he tactically isn't all there, then ultimately what's the point in just sticking with him til death do us part?

The fear of appointing someone worse and sticking with Bowyer regardless has plenty more flaws than looking to appoint someone new. I am very aware that there are risks in appointing a new manager, considering Venky's track record etc, and of course we could get someone worse, but we could very easily get someone better IMO. Depending on which scenario you believe, what's the use in sticking with him and hoping he changes his tact after two years in the job?

For me it's all about risk vs reward. The risk of sticking with Bowyer is high, yet the chances of reward are very slim as there is nothing to suggest he could even take a talented squad to the play-offs, let alone to the promotion spots. The risk of appointing a new manager is high as we could get someone worse, equal or better than GB. However, the potential rewards from a new manager far exceeds the potential rewards from sticking with Bowyer.

EDIT: This isn't solely aimed at you, but at anyone who believes sticking with Bowyer is the best option. Just trying to understand the logic and which scenario they relate to.

[den]

You've quoted me incorrectly there den, the term I used was "cop out". I didn't like the answer because there wasn't one. Just an exercise in theorising without any suggestions.

In your previous post you mentioned our good managers in the dark days e.g

Gordon Lee was good, up and coming manager who came from Port Vale I think. His problem with us would be that our members (and I include you here) wouldn't give him a chance as he is not an experienced 'name' . Not only that but he played an Allardyce style and our spoilt generation wouldn't have that would they?

Jim Smith ... ditto. Played marvellous football eventually and damned near got us into the top division but he'd be written off here before he started because he was another unknown and came from Colchester Utd. Who on earth would give him a chance here when he first came and started slowly?

Howard Kendall did exceptionally well and had been a top player but how many Prem players accept the role of player manager these days? The answer is not many cos not many need to. Most thought Roy Keane and Stuart Pearce would make great managers but they both bombed a number of times. The nearest example we have to HIK would of course be Mark Hughes but you and many others have stated that you are not prepared to accept novice managers.

Bobby Saxton... came from Plymouth which again would be no good for you. Loyal but imo one dimensional and not good in front of the camera's. Prob the best we could afford at the time. He gave his all but it was never quite enough. Remind you of anyone?

Full marks to the Chairmen who appointed these people but back then we knew our place and accepted their gambles, not sure such wild card appointments would receive the same support these days. How about you? Not only that but these were interspersed with the likes of Iley, Pickering and Richard Dinnis who were basically poor appointments.

Flip the coin and the big name charlies back then Johnny Carey (2nd time) and Eddie Quigley left pretty awful records.

Personally I don't know what to suggest because there really is no guarantee that we will get better than Bowyer and probably every chance that we will get worse.

Dunno why I posted all that. den, 49er you two Paranoid Androids. Was it worth it?

What kind of argument is it, that those managers would be no good here because I/we/us/the fans wouldn't give them a chance?

They were all better managers than the current one - and all appointed when the club had supposedly nothing to offer them. They were all given a chance by the fans then, just as Bowyer has been given and is still getting his chance.

You've been saying for the past 4 years where the club is heading, I.e admin or worse, but now you're frightened of appointing the wrong manager because of the damage that could do.

You're better than that Gordon.

[ABBEY]

if that was a valid reason NOONE would ever fire a manager or any walk of life because none actually knows if the new guy is better or worse than present.

[broadsword]

This makes for interesting reading (I've not verified the figures, but they appear reasonable): http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/startseite/wettbewerb/GB2

(But what on Earth is a Legionary?)

I presume Gary Bowyer will still be here in 6 months' time, wonder how the landscape will look then?

[K-Hod]

This makes for interesting reading (I've not verified the figures, but they appear reasonable): http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/startseite/wettbewerb/GB2

(But what on Earth is a Legionary?)

I presume Gary Bowyer will still be here in 6 months' time, wonder how the landscape will look then?

I'd wager a Legionary is a strange way of saying British Player!

[Jimmy612]

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/transfers/wettbewerb/GB2/saison_id/2014#subnavi

Interesting to see that our spending probably reflects where we are in the league, with plenty of clubs below actually spending more. Bournemouth, Boro, Norwich, Brentford, Leeds, Forest, Wigan have all spent more than us, some unbelievably excessively - Watford and Wolves aside, the rest are almost reflective of 'the amount you spend is where you will finish in the league'.

Ipswich, Watford and Wolves are probably the main exceptions to that

[Gav]

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/transfers/wettbewerb/GB2/saison_id/2014#subnavi

Interesting to see that our spending probably reflects where we are in the league, with plenty of clubs below actually spending more. Bournemouth, Boro, Norwich, Brentford, Leeds, Forest, Wigan have all spent more than us, some unbelievably excessively - Watford and Wolves aside, the rest are almost reflective of 'the amount you spend is where you will finish in the league'.

Ipswich, Watford and Wolves are probably the main exceptions to that

I've been saying the same all season but after a while its like banging your head against a brick wall.

It seems most think that because we have Rhodes on 40k a week and Gestede pulling up trees and Big Mick doing well at Ipswich.........we've somehow got a God given right to be top 6. The side is full of other clubs cast offs and is simply not good enough to go up.

Yes you can blame the manager, that's the usual route and it could well be a valid reason, but I get the feeling that the side simply isn't good enough and that's the bottom line.

[ABBEY]

who brought the players in Gav?

[yoda]

I just wanted to confirm that this wasn't a serious comment, Yoda....

Maybe so, but as Athlete says, the stats don't lie,

never understood people when they say we are destined for a particular level,

We are the ROVERS,

Degsy out

[Rover_Shaun]

£16m spent, in just fees alone, and we're still not good enough

You couldn't make it up!

[Jimmy612]

£30m spent, in just fees alone, and we're still not good enough

You couldn't make it up!

Spent by whom and on whom?

[tomphil]

This makes for interesting reading (I've not verified the figures, but they appear reasonable): http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/startseite/wettbewerb/GB2

(But what on Earth is a Legionary?)

I presume Gary Bowyer will still be here in 6 months' time, wonder how the landscape will look then?

Barren !

[rog of the rovers]

Will be interesting to see how he handles a ''personality'' like Paul Taylor, when a much better man manager (McCarthy) couldn't!

[Gav]

who brought the players in Gav?

Anyone can bring players in Abbs, it's the budget/market place you shop in that counts.

£30m spent, in just fees alone, and we're still not good enough

You couldn't make it up!

You're making it up!!

[Rover_Shaun]

Why the hell did I write £30m? Must be Fridayitis.

I meant to write £16m spent on just fees alone whilst a Championship club By whom is irrelevant when the charge was the club had more to chuck at it the last time we were in this league.

Even if Bowyer only spent about £6m of it he's still got a squad that cost £16m. SIXTEEN MILLION POUNDS STERLING!

God knows what the total is when wages are added.......plus pay offs.

So only half as bad as I first typed. Happy Days. Nowt to worry about. Carry on making a sows ear Mr Bowyer. Move along. Nothing to see

[Jimmy612]

Why the hell did I write £30m? Must be Fridayitis.

I meant to write £16m spent on just fees alone whilst a Championship club By whom is irrelevant when the charge was the club had more to chuck at it the last time we were in this league.

Even if Bowyer only spent about £6m of it he's still got a squad that cost £16m. SIXTEEN MILLION POUNDS STERLING!

God knows what the total is when wages are added.......plus pay offs.

So only half as bad as I first typed. Happy Days. Nowt to worry about. Carry on making a sows ear Mr Bowyer. Move along. Nothing to see

Question still stands - on whom and by whom?

[Rover_Shaun]

By Degsy at the behest of Kean and Bowyer

Search for the figures yourself you lazy bleeder

EDIT: Done it for you

http://www.transferleague.co.uk/blackburn-rovers/english-football-teams/blackburn-rovers-transfers

Major undisclosed fees to add: Gestede £300k. Conway £whatever it was I can't recall

Players ommited to add: Marshal £1m

Works out as Kean £13.5m (bald t0sser) and Bowyer about £4-£4.5m

Irrelevant I know but the charge that the club has not had enough funds to get out of this league is not true. The money has been waxed on bugger all

[Jimmy612]

By Degsy at the behest of Kean and Bowyer

Search for the figures yourself you lazy bleeder

You're fortunate I just have -

15.5 by Kean

3.4 by Bowyer.

EDIT - I note we have clashed on fees spent -- - http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/blackburn-rovers/transfers/verein/164/plus/?saison_id=2012&pos=&detailpos=

EDIT EDIT - I note now that Gestede and Cairney are Loans in my list - Add £1m. - so about £4.4.m in two seasons for Bowyer.

Most of that on Rhodes, Best and Etuhu plus the portuguese contingent and Danny @#/? Murphy.

So really no surprise that after spunking millions on crap, we are still a mid-table Champ side. Not an excuse for Bowyer because this season I believe he should have done better with the players he has, particularly considering the WOEFUL December and January we had.

I still want a proper manager - I have since Kean departed, but unlike others I'm exceptionally wary of how catastrophically wrong it can go with Venkys heading up a managerial search. We don't have a bad side but we are woefully inconsistent - things could be better, things could certainly be a hell of a lot worse. People appear to have forgotten that there is a hell of a long way left to fall yet.