[Archived] Gary Bowyer Discussion

[ABBEY]

There's always been on this board a herd mentality around the sure-fired solution of the day. Getting Kean out was the answer. Then Anderson. Then Agnew. Then Shebby. Then the likes of Murphy. Then all the Portugueezers. Now it's Bowyer; just get him out and this squad of top notch players will walk this crap league, just you see.

I think he's a pretty average manager in this league, but I don't think he's the reason we're not in the Premier League. But anyway, back to the script...

did you want Kean to stay ?

[Exiled in Toronto]

did you want Kean to stay ?

No, but you are missing the point. The squirrel mentality on here is becoming ridiculous. If sacking four managers under Venky's ownership has changed nothing, why Bowyer Out has become The Solution is beyond me.

[Parsonblue]

No, but you are missing the point. The squirrel mentality on here is becoming ridiculous. If sacking four managers under Venky's ownership has changed nothing, why Bowyer Out has become The Solution is beyond me.

Couldn't agree more Exiled. No doubt there were Wigan fans wanting rid of Coyle, then Rosler and then Mackay thinking that everything would be fine with a change of manager - something they might ponder over next season on their trips to Gillingham and the like.

[Rover_Shaun]

But like Wolves (as I predicted at the time) they may return swiftly and stronger than us

[Exiled in Toronto]

But like Wolves (as I predicted at the time) they may return swiftly and stronger than us

Or, like Stockport County, Coventry, Notts County, Oxford Utd and Bristol Rovers - all of whom I have seen us play on a level footing many times - they may not.

[Rover_Shaun]

But they may

[Exiled in Toronto]

But they may

I'm sure they are, at this moment, dancing in the streets of Wigan at the thought.

[Mattyblue]

Of course, managerial changes can go badly- Wigan, but also well- Burnley. Was ever thus.

For me it comes down to 3 questions:

1) Is the manager getting the best out of his players on a consistent basis?

2) is the style of play/tactical approach going to have us winning matches on a consistent basis?

3) Have we improved on last season?

If the answer to them all is no (which it is for me), why is a change not worth a go?

[Amo]

There's always been on this board a herd mentality around the sure-fired solution of the day. Getting Kean out was the answer. Then Anderson. Then Agnew. Then Shebby. Then the likes of Murphy. Then all the Portugueezers. Now it's Bowyer; just get him out and this squad of top notch players will walk this crap league, just you see.

I think he's a pretty average manager in this league, but I don't think he's the reason we're not in the Premier League. But anyway, back to the script...

That's because the last five years has been like fighting a hydra, when we think we've sliced one head off, two more grow in its place.

Only by removing Venky's will the beast truly be slain.

[DE.]

Of course, managerial changes can go badly- Wigan, but also well- Burnley. Was ever thus.

For me it comes down to 3 questions:

1) Is the manager getting the best out of his players on a consistent basis?

2) is the style of play/tactical approach going to have us winning matches on a consistent basis?

3) Have we improved on last season?

If the answer to them all is no (which it is for me), why is a change not worth a go?

This debate has been going around in circles for about 8 months now, it basically boils down to the people wanting Bowyer out expressing the above logic, and the people wanting Bowyer to stay saying Venky's can't be trusted and will hire somebody worse. Argument ends up in stalemate, then the personal insults come out.

[chris_h]

This debate has been going around in circles for about 8 months now, it basically boils down to the people wanting Bowyer out expressing the above logic, and the people wanting Bowyer to stay saying Venky's can't be trusted and will hire somebody worse. Argument ends up in stalemate, then the personal insults come out.

It's not so much that Venkys can't be trusted more a case of who would come.

[Parsonblue]

This debate has been going around in circles for about 8 months now, it basically boils down to the people wanting Bowyer out expressing the above logic, and the people wanting Bowyer to stay saying Venky's can't be trusted and will hire somebody worse. Argument ends up in stalemate, then the personal insults come out.

Totally agree with that DE. You either have faith in the manager - which I have - or you don't. Nobody is going to have their opinions changed by what is said on here.

[chris_h]

That's because the last five years has been like fighting a hydra, when we think we've sliced one head off, two more grow in its place.

Only by removing Venky's will the beast truly be slain.

Removing Venkys at the moment surely means the death of the club?

[Mike E]

It's not so much that Venkys can't be trusted more a case of who would come.

I actually think it'd be a shorter list of 'who wouldn't'! I'd love a job where I'm backed to the hilt with a fair old payoff if I get sacked.

[tomphil]

It's funny how the Wigan ones and others that don't quite work out etc are always highlighted yet the changes that do ok are missed. Lennon at Bolton, Rowett at Brum, arguably the ones at Brighton/ Huddersfield all went in stopped the rot and got the clubs doing ok again when a few of them were heading only one way. Okay they haven't torn up trees but they haven't got the players/squads to do so yet. Then there is Watford of course.

[chris_h]

It's funny how the Wigan ones and others that don't quite work out etc are always highlighted yet the changes that do ok are missed. Lennon at Bolton, Rowett at Brum, arguably the ones at Brighton/ Huddersfield all went in stopped the rot and got the clubs doing ok again when a few of them were heading only one way. Okay they haven't torn up trees but they haven't got the players/squads to do so yet. Then there is Watford of course.

Christ! Can you imagine the uproar on here if we had appointed Rowett, Powell or Jokanovic?

[Exiled in Toronto]

It's funny how the Wigan ones and others that don't quite work out etc are always highlighted yet the changes that do ok are missed. Lennon at Bolton, Rowett at Brum, arguably the ones at Brighton/ Huddersfield all went in stopped the rot and got the clubs doing ok again when a few of them were heading only one way. Okay they haven't torn up trees but they haven't got the players/squads to do so yet. Then there is Watford of course.

Factor out the new manager bounce, which I'm sure would happen to us as well, and I'm not sure any of those are convincing examples for change.

A point made I think by Amarillo a few days ago made me pause - the top three have scored average of 30 goals more than us, and we have Rhodes/Gestede! If a new manager can get an extra thirty goals out of our sorry excuse for a midfield, he should be at Lourdes healing the sick.

[Athlete]

It's not so much that Venkys can't be trusted more a case of who would come

it is still an attractive role at one of the leagues founder members , PL winners etc

[ABBEY]

Removing Venkys at the moment surely means the death of the club?

Why

[tomphil]

The thing is in the championship with it's limited finance then clubs can't bring in big name managers or constantly update their squads so to freshen things up managerial changes are common. New ideas and new voice sometimes does the trick even if it's short term. The infrastructure of a club should be able to withstand managerial changes now and again. The whole thing shouldn't revolve around the first team gaffer with the threat of the whole club falling to bits if he leaves, change in football is inevitable.

If Gaz had us in the play offs and we just missed out then Forest or someone came calling then I'm sure he'd be off, taking some backroom with him. Clubs have to be set up to withstand change not have the team manager running the whole show.

Christ! Can you imagine the uproar on here if we had appointed Rowett, Powell or Jokanovic?

True but people come up with a whole host of names on here when there is a debate. Also we've had the likes of Appleton and Kean so I think most would give whoever came in a chance. Wouldn't be much of one though

[JHRover]

It's funny how the Wigan ones and others that don't quite work out etc are always highlighted yet the changes that do ok are missed. Lennon at Bolton, Rowett at Brum, arguably the ones at Brighton/ Huddersfield all went in stopped the rot and got the clubs doing ok again when a few of them were heading only one way. Okay they haven't torn up trees but they haven't got the players/squads to do so yet. Then there is Watford of course.

And herein lies part of the problem. Many Rovers fans cast covetous eyes at other clubs and managers in this league without actually considering the circumstances. I'm of the view that its a little bit early to start hailing Rowett and Lennon as miracle workers. As you rightly say, both have gone in, stopped the rot, and got them going again when they were only heading one way.

Isn't that exactly what Bowyer has done here?

Many had decided well before he even arrived at Bolton that Lennon was a managerial genius. Two weeks ago he scabbed a 1-1 draw against Blackpool at home, the same Blackpool that Bowyer failed to beat yet one manager is inept the other brilliant. Lennon turned up at Ewood a few weeks ago against a side in mid-table, played for a draw, wasted time all the second half and got beat. Every time we go away for a draw in the league Bowyer gets ripped to shreds on here. If Bowyer had signed Emile Heskey there would have been mutiny on the terraces.

Lets be honest here. It's all about the 'name'. Because Lennon is a 'big' name and acts the goat on the touchline the neutrals love him. Because Bowyer isn't and usually keeps calm on the touchline he doesn't get the same positive guff.

Its worth mentioning that despite the 'woeful' job Bowyer has supposedly done this season we're still on course to finish comfortably above those managerial geniuses Lennon and Rowett. Neither of those have led their Championship sides to the Quarter Finals of the FA Cup and claimed the scalps of 2 Premier League clubs in the process, neither have had to work their way through drastic cost cutting exercises or work under an embargo. So I think I'll reserve judgment on those two until the end of next season. If they lead Bolton/Birmingham to promotion I'll eat my words. If they don't will you accept they are not good managers as they have done nothing more than Bowyer has?

Comparisons to Watford are a complete waste of time as the structure at that club is different to most other sides in this league. They have a continental structure in place where the squad of players is brought together by a committee of people and then a coach is appointed to work with them. They can chop and change head coaches regularly and the disruption to the organisation is minimal as they have the same coaching staff and transfer policy regardless. Here the manager comes with all the coaching staff, scouts, etc. which leaves an almighty amount of disruption and change around.

This is one of the reasons I don't fully understand the mad scramble for Mark Warburton's services so many seem obsessed with obtaining. Many people simply look from afar at Brentford's performances over the last 2 years, see that Warburton is getting sacked this summer and clamour for him. But when you actually look at Brentford's unusual club set up, the job Warburton has had to do there is vastly different to the one he would have to do here. Again they have a very different structure as a club to what we have. A structure Warburton has been involved in for several years behind the scenes. They have put a squad together over 4 years to get to where they are now. People would expect Warburton to walk in here with a magic wand and turn us into Brentford overnight, I'm not so sure.

[Mr. E]

Removing Venkys at the moment surely means the death of the club?

Obviously someone else that we can trust will need to step in and take over. And as soon as that happens, as soon as there as someone who can save us, we need to get rid of them on the very minute.

[tomphil]

And herein lies part of the problem. Many Rovers fans cast covetous eyes at other clubs and managers in this league without actually considering the circumstances. I'm of the view that its a little bit early to start hailing Rowett and Lennon as miracle workers. As you rightly say, both have gone in, stopped the rot, and got them going again when they were only heading one way.

Isn't that exactly what Bowyer has done here?

Many had decided well before he even arrived at Bolton that Lennon was a managerial genius. Two weeks ago he scabbed a 1-1 draw against Blackpool at home, the same Blackpool that Bowyer failed to beat yet one manager is inept the other brilliant. Lennon turned up at Ewood a few weeks ago against a side in mid-table, played for a draw, wasted time all the second half and got beat. Every time we go away for a draw in the league Bowyer gets ripped to shreds on here. If Bowyer had signed Emile Heskey there would have been mutiny on the terraces.

Lets be honest here. It's all about the 'name'. Because Lennon is a 'big' name and acts the goat on the touchline the neutrals love him. Because Bowyer isn't and usually keeps calm on the touchline he doesn't get the same positive guff.

Its worth mentioning that despite the 'woeful' job Bowyer has supposedly done this season we're still on course to finish comfortably above those managerial geniuses Lennon and Rowett. Neither of those have led their Championship sides to the Quarter Finals of the FA Cup and claimed the scalps of 2 Premier League clubs in the process, neither have had to work their way through drastic cost cutting exercises or work under an embargo. So I think I'll reserve judgment on those two until the end of next season. If they lead Bolton/Birmingham to promotion I'll eat my words. If they don't will you accept they are not good managers as they have done nothing more than Bowyer has?

Comparisons to Watford are a complete waste of time as the structure at that club is different to most other sides in this league. They have a continental structure in place where the squad of players is brought together by a committee of people and then a coach is appointed to work with them. They can chop and change head coaches regularly and the disruption to the organisation is minimal as they have the same coaching staff and transfer policy regardless. Here the manager comes with all the coaching staff, scouts, etc. which leaves an almighty amount of disruption and change around.

This is one of the reasons I don't fully understand the mad scramble for Mark Warburton's services so many seem obsessed with obtaining. Many people simply look from afar at Brentford's performances over the last 2 years, see that Warburton is getting sacked this summer and clamour for him. But when you actually look at Brentford's unusual club set up, the job Warburton has had to do there is vastly different to the one he would have to do here. Again they have a very different structure as a club to what we have. A structure Warburton has been involved in for several years behind the scenes. They have put a squad together over 4 years to get to where they are now. People would expect Warburton to walk in here with a magic wand and turn us into Brentford overnight, I'm not so sure.

You started so well then went on to miss the point a bit. Yes they've gone in and done a similar job to Bowyer but we are a season ahead of them in those terms so who knows what will happen. None of them have had the squad available that GB had at the beginning of this season so how do you know what they'd have achieved with our squad ? You don't and neither do I but it's a 50% chance they could do better is it not ?

Now we come to Watford and in no way did I draw any comparison to them but I did say in another post that clubs infrastructures should be set up to withstand change at managerial level as it is inevitable at most championship clubs and the whole thing shouldn't come crashing down when a first team manager moves/has to be moved on. Watford are a great example of that.

[JHRover]

You started so well then went on to miss the point a bit. Yes they've gone in and done a similar job to Bowyer but we are a season ahead of them in those terms so who knows what will happen. None of them have had the squad available that GB had at the beginning of this season so how do you know what they'd have achieved with our squad ? You don't and neither do I but it's a 50% chance they could do better is it not ?

Now we come to Watford and in no way did I draw any comparison to them but I did say in another post that clubs infrastructures should be set up to withstand change at managerial level as it is inevitable at most championship clubs and the whole thing shouldn't come crashing down when a first team manager moves/has to be moved on. Watford are a great example of that.

I think I've inadvertently agreed with you on some points here!

Nobody knows what Lennon/Rowett could have achieved with our squad. Nobody knows what Van Gaal or Mourinho could have achieved with our squad.

Nobody knows what Bowyer could have achieved if he hadn't had to save £200k a week from the wage bill.

Nobody knows what Bowyer would have achieved if he had taken the job with a clued up experienced footballing board above him. Unfortunately he hasn't had that luxury and from the word go has been running the entire footballing side of the club single handed in his first job as a manager. I'd wager Lennon has had some experienced people on the board helping him along at Bolton. Same goes for many other of the new managers in the Championship this season.

Yes we are, in a sense, a season ahead of those clubs in that Bowyer has had an extra year in charge. And we are ahead of them, because we have been in the top half all season and they have been fighting relegation all season. And I'll repeat myself, IF Lennon or Rowett EXCEED Bowyer's performance, e.g. get promotion in their second season, then I will hold my hands up and eat my words, and accept that they are better. But by the same logic IF they don't achieve promotion next season then does that not mean they have failed, if Bowyer is deemed to have failed here? Like I said, it is too early to be hailing Lennon or Rowett as Mourinho's in the making. Only time will tell. Them two will be given more time at their clubs than Bowyer is being afforded by the fans here, providing they keep clear of relegation.

Following on from that I don't think anyone can argue Rowett or Lennon inherited worse situations than Bowyer did. Both took over much earlier in the season with much more time to achieve survival, neither have had the upheaval to deal with that Bowyer has had here.

These questions can continue to go round and round in circles for eternity. It doesn't matter who the incumbent manager is or who are working at other clubs - people can always cast glances at others and 'wish' for a seemingly better or more attractive alternative. I think its a symptom of modern day football tbh. I'm sure there's a few clubs below us in the Championship who wished they'd been head to head with Liverpool in the FA Cup QF last night but they weren't, thanks to their fantastic managers. I'd sooner be in our position than Bolton's (an extra £100 million of debt) or Birmingham's (owner in jail). Yet it seems others don't agree, and are even now ignoring our FA Cup run or us being above certain clubs in the league.

Put simply, I think that for as long as we are outside the top six there will be clamours for the manager to be binned and replaced. This will go on and on. And as long as we are outside the top division all other positive news around the club will be dismissed as irrelevant or meaningless, like some seem to be thinking with the excellent achievement of knocking two Premier League sides out of the cup and drawing at Anfield.

Watford are a unique example. No other club is set up like they are. So IMV its pointless even discussing them as a comparison to Rovers. What I will say is I expect to see more and more clubs following the Watford 'model' as FFP takes hold. Clubs will begin to construct playing squads at board level with coaches coming and going, meaning that changes to the coaching staff can be in future made more easily without the upheaval once associated with a managerial change, and without the expense of a new manager wanting to put his own 'stamp' on the club. Coaches will be increasingly brought in to a club to work with what is already there, rather than make big, costly changes.

[tomphil]

IMO the wage bill is a moot point because the main drains who've been removed wouldn't have played anyway. They were brought here just for their last big contracts and were either injured or just plain crap and uninterested by the time GB took charge so he wouldn't have used them anyway. If they didn't exist would Bowyer have been allowed to spend ? Possibly but at least he hasn't had to cope with his best players being sold, far from it he's been able to loan in whenever he's asked which goes against the grain of being hampered by slashing the wage bill. Let's not forget he fell out with Best also.

FFP is being banded about all the time now but again it doesn't wash as far as this season is concerned as they knew it was coming and pre empted it by signing a load of players, admittedly on the cheap but also turned down big bids for good players. Again against the grain of slashing the wage bill.

Everyone inside and outside football look at our squad and say we should be doing better. Nothing can take away from the fact that this season has been a wasted chance of at least an assault on the play offs. From here on in it's going to get really tough and next season this league will be more competitive than ever. Part of the reason for this seasons waste is the state we are in and the inconsistency of players. However nothing can take away from the fact that another large part of it is down to the floundering, over cautious lackadaisical approach of the manager.