[Archived] Gary Bowyer Discussion

[Tris]

The trust were out of there no matter what. I can understand why people wanted to stick with them but unfortunately they didn't want to stick with us.

They certainly didn't need the hassle of football club ownership for a negative return, and FlyBe was a much better business to mend.

From their point of view, its 10/10.

[47er]

And once again you post aggressively against someone you don't agree with. Shall we revisit your problematic history in all of this?? It isn't good, you shouted the JW Trust out from the get-go ... you assumed that any new owner would bring a pot of gold to bring in fantasy players with fantasy money on fantasy budgets. YOU welcomed the Venyks with open arms as a replacement for the JW trust. Just look at your contributions :

My response back in June 2010 :

47er, you desperately wanted rid of the Walker Trust, so much so that you couldn't see past your blinkers to what would follow.

You got us the Venkys. Well done. Thanks.

I don't understand why you are corrupting this 20 year old messageboard, and trying to manipulate the stats. You alone have made more posts in this topic (at time of posting) than both of the people you have called out as "having the field entirely to themselves". Why make that accusation??

I disagree with quite a few views on here, but I think most of them are honest. On the other hand, you called everything wrong last time, and now have the nerve to come back and pretend you have the magic formula for where to go next. Get lost are the polite words which spring to mind.

Once again------quotes and comments out of context, same old stuff every six months or so before further hibernation and totally ignoring the responses I've made to them over the years. Your post was never meant for me, you are appealing to your pals. So here goes, one last time, because I will never read or reply to a post of yours again.

You were wrong on Souness----he had to go.

You were wrong on Hughes----he had to come.

You were wrong on Allardyce-----he did come, did well and was criticised at every opportunity by you.

I got all these right!

You were and are wrong on the Trust. The option to stick with the Trust was never available to you or anyone else. After all those years you cannot get it into your head that THEY WANTED TO LEAVE US AND NOTHING WAS GOING TO AFFECT THAT.

I was wrong about the Trust too but in a different way. I knew they would sell but I never believed they would trash their benefactors legacy in the way they did. I trusted the Trust to find us the best owners and said so at the time on many occasions. They failed us, I didn't. All I did was to post my views on here same as you. None of us had any effect on the actions of the Walker Trust or the subsequent actions of the Venkys (although giving Allardyce all the grief on here as many did, didn't help).

Finally, there is nothing "aggressive"about my post to Chaddy, its a gentle rebuke for a perpetual failing of his. However there is tons of aggression in your posts towards me and has been for years. The reference to "not leaving the field entirely to yourselves" was about insults, both of which abound from those two. Didn't you even understand it had nothing to do with number of posts?

So that's it. Post what you like I won't respond. Find another to load your bile on. I won't be getting lost either by the way, I'll continue to call it as I see it.

[JBiz]

Of course we've brought in more than we've spent but the fees on incoming players surely exceeds £1.5mill. The Duffy fee alone was reportedly £1.5mill including add ons (something like £300k up front). Marshall was 100% £1mill+ alone and the Cairney, Conway and Gestede transfers reportedly add up to £1mill. I don't think Steele was a freebie either. Plus a number of free transfers on £10k per week a piece and countless loans that no doubt cost in wages (think Dabo, Feeney, Taylor etc). I think Bowyer has been backed pretty well. Previous summer and before he was praising the owners for investing in whoever he wanted to get, only now FFP has kicked in and he's failed to meet his set targets (he has always said the squad was capable of pushing for play-offs) has he blamed our lack of funds and remarked on the spending powers of other teams.

EDIT: and yes, the money wasted by Kean etc is unforgivable and seriously hindered our capabilities of getting out of this division. I would argue that Bowyer has been well backed in comparison to the likes of McCarthy at Ipswich.

Since GB took over he has spent less than he's had through sales. That is a FACT - The sales of Martin Olsson (2.5m) Formica (600k) Scott Dann (1.5m) Rochina, Judge, Jack O' Connell, Anthony O'Connor, (all undisclosed) all paid for more than the transfer fees we've paid out.

If you want to do the stats - be my guest. I had a look for the Shane Duffy price article because I am 99% sure we paid 300k upfront with the rest after promotion. The rest that included fees; Steele, Marshall, Cairney, Conway, Gestede, Evans.

In terms of improvement - it is undeniable that his transfer business has been an improvement of what we had. This statement of "GB has had lots of legroom to move players about" is used constantly to show more failings - when in fact, if you look at the departure list of the last two seasons, you'd see just how difficult its been to get rid of so many players and bring in adequate replacements on a negative spend.

List of players that needed replacing when GB took over;

David Goodwillie, Diego Rosado, Morten Gamst, Leon Best, Givet, Orr, Nuno Henrique, Bruno Ribiero, Dj Campbell, Fabio Nunes, Nuno Gomes, Edinho Junior, Jordan Slew, Danny Murphy, Colin Kazim Richards, Sandiomerski, Jake Kean, Dixon Etuhu. Thats almost a whole squad. When we sarcastically mention Songo'o and Dabo - Just how likely would anyone be able to replace that lot with complete quality, on a negative spend... Bruce Almighty?

How is it possible to argue that he's been well backed in the transfer market without mentioning this also? When Mick Mc or Steve Mc took over, did they have 200k a week of players on their books who either 1) had signed the contract during a criminal environment or 2) did not even want to play or try for the club.

The answer is no. If you want to talk about how GB has had a plethora of options, money and legroom - please don't forget the huge pile of @#/? that he inherited from the morons before. The embargo is a DIRECT RESULT of spunking our parachute money on shebby's day off, signing Best, Rhodes, Murphy, Etuhu and giving extensions to Robbo, Orr etc and those mistakes have cost us big time and dented chances of promotion - its undeniable.

Its called having a balanced view.

[chris_h]

Once again------quotes and comments out of context, same old stuff every six months or so before further hibernation and totally ignoring the responses I've made to them over the years. Your post was never meant for me, you are appealing to your pals. So here goes, one last time, because I will never read or reply to a post of yours again.

You were wrong on Souness----he had to go.

You were wrong on Hughes----he had to come.

You were wrong on Allardyce-----he did come, did well and was criticised at every opportunity by you.

I got all these right!

You were and are wrong on the Trust. The option to stick with the Trust was never available to you or anyone else. After all those years you cannot get it into your head that THEY WANTED TO LEAVE US AND NOTHING WAS GOING TO AFFECT THAT.

I was wrong about the Trust too but in a different way. I knew they would sell but I never believed they would trash their benefactors legacy in the way they did. I trusted the Trust to find us the best owners and said so at the time on many occasions. They failed us, I didn't. All I did was to post my views on here same as you. None of us had any effect on the actions of the Walker Trust or the subsequent actions of the Venkys (although giving Allardyce all the grief on here as many did, didn't help).

Finally, there is nothing "aggressive"about my post to Chaddy, its a gentle rebuke for a perpetual failing of his. However there is tons of aggression in your posts towards me and has been for years. The reference to "not leaving the field entirely to yourselves" was about insults, both of which abound from those two. Didn't you even understand it had nothing to do with number of posts?

So that's it. Post what you like I won't respond. Find another to load your bile on. I won't be getting lost either by the way, I'll continue to call it as I see it.

More flouncing than a Larry Grayson convention!

[Gav]

Ok.

Did Tony Pulis apply for the Rovers job?

Anybody?

No he didn't, Pulis stock has been far to high in recent years for him to consider working for the idiots in Pune.

[Blue blood]

Since GB took over he has spent less than he's had through sales. That is a FACT - The sales of Martin Olsson (2.5m) Formica (600k) Scott Dann (1.5m) Rochina, Judge, Jack O' Connell, Anthony O'Connor, (all undisclosed) all paid for more than the transfer fees we've paid out.

If you want to do the stats - be my guest. I had a look for the Shane Duffy price article because I am 99% sure we paid 300k upfront with the rest after promotion. The rest that included fees; Steele, Marshall, Cairney, Conway, Gestede, Evans.

In terms of improvement - it is undeniable that his transfer business has been an improvement of what we had. This statement of "GB has had lots of legroom to move players about" is used constantly to show more failings - when in fact, if you look at the departure list of the last two seasons, you'd see just how difficult its been to get rid of so many players and bring in adequate replacements on a negative spend.

List of players that needed replacing when GB took over;

David Goodwillie, Diego Rosado, Morten Gamst, Leon Best, Givet, Orr, Nuno Henrique, Bruno Ribiero, Dj Campbell, Fabio Nunes, Nuno Gomes, Edinho Junior, Jordan Slew, Danny Murphy, Colin Kazim Richards, Sandiomerski, Jake Kean, Dixon Etuhu. Thats almost a whole squad. When we sarcastically mention Songo'o and Dabo - Just how likely would anyone be able to replace that lot with complete quality, on a negative spend... Bruce Almighty?

How is it possible to argue that he's been well backed in the transfer market without mentioning this also? When Mick Mc or Steve Mc took over, did they have 200k a week of players on their books who either 1) had signed the contract during a criminal environment or 2) did not even want to play or try for the club.

The answer is no. If you want to talk about how GB has had a plethora of options, money and legroom - please don't forget the huge pile of @#/? that he inherited from the morons before. The embargo is a DIRECT RESULT of spunking our parachute money on shebby's day off, signing Best, Rhodes, Murphy, Etuhu and giving extensions to Robbo, Orr etc and those mistakes have cost us big time and dented chances of promotion - its undeniable.

Its called having a balanced view.

Dented not denied. And I think this is where the crux of the matter lies - was Bowyer helpless to deliver promotion because of all of that, or has he contributed towards our languishing in championship? I'd say it's the latter.

And whilst well argued, I'd say he's still had a lot of legroom to bring in players - especially when factoring in wages, signing on fees etc. and hasn't really had to get rid of anyone he wanted to get rid of. He's hardly had a terrible time of it. Also I'm fairly confident that Kazim Richards, Nuno Gomes, Pedersen - and even it seemed Ribeiro - could've been used and utilized well in our team, not sure they needed getting rid of. But given Rhodes has stayed despite high wages, I'd suggest Bowyer has had a fair amount of largess in who he can and can't keep.

Incidentally I'm not disagreeing that Kean et al screwed us over royally and made getting promotion a lot harder. The scumbags did a good, or bad job, of holding us back. And no one still currently here, bar Venkeys deserve the venom and vitriol that "that lot" deserve. My gripe is that Bowyer is blameless or couldn't have or indeed shouldn't have done better. Even with the hand Kean and co left us with, given the resources, leeway and talent available Bowyer to me should have got us a lot nearer promotion.

[thenodrog]

Good old Chris as pleasant as ever. Every post contains a dig at somebody. Revels in it? OK sunshine. EDIT: I see one of his pack has predictably waded in.

So going to three games and hearing, what, the 6 people directly around you is also a gauge Chris?

Living in the area, hell fking living in the same hemisphere to the club, you do actually speak to many many Rovers fans who are friends, family and acquaintances, all with eons of supporting under their belts and not many are happy. All say the same thing too, that those that they know largley feel the same. Some are resigned, some are indignant, none are happy. And absolutely none can see a way out. Apathy, sadness and helplessness are the overriding emotions. I can't recall hearing anyone outside this forum say Bowyer has done a good job this season.

And there's the rub because whilst that has some validity so is the fact that he hasn't done a bad job.

[Amo]

Few would argue that Bowyer inherited a dream scenario when he took over the reins on a permanent basis. However, he has been allowed to sign a squad's worth of players and this season was very much his own team, but Bowyer doesn't look any closer to figuring out how he wants his side set-up, or what his best 11 even is. That's the most salient point in all of this. It'd be different if, pardon the phrase, we 'could see what he's trying to do' but I don't think there is any discernible gameplan. Case in point, sometimes we play a flat 4-4-2, but there's no width as our wingers are slow and on the wrong side half the time, and the full-backs rarely overlap.

[thenodrog]

Ok.

Did Tony Pulis apply for the Rovers job?

Anybody?

i guess we'll never know. What we do know is that he would have received much scorn because his brand of football makes Big Sams like watching brazil. Our school of science crew who sit behind the goals and as a result can see little of the game would have been booing home wins against rivals in no time.

[Gav]

Few would argue that Bowyer inherited a dream scenario when he took over the reins on a permanent basis. However, he has been allowed to sign a squad's worth of players and this season was very much his own team, but Bowyer doesn't look any closer to figuring out how he wants his side set-up, or what his best 11 even is. That's the most salient point in all of this. It'd be different if, pardon the phrase, we 'could see what he's trying to do' but I don't think there is any discernible gameplan. Case in point, sometimes we play a flat 4-4-2, but there's no width as our wingers are slow and on the wrong side half the time, and the full-backs rarely overlap.

You're having a laugh surely, "A dream scenario"?

You make some valid points in the rest of your post but he inherited a nightmare scenario and the job still remains just that, a nightmare.

[Amo]

You're having a laugh surely, "A dream scenario"?

You make some valid points in the rest of your post but he inherited a nightmare scenario and the job still remains just that, a nightmare.

Maybe go back and re-read what I wrote.

[Rover_Shaun]

Dream scenario. Green light to bring in 25 players, no real boss above him, no targets, no performance reviews, no pressure, nice contract, ready made excuses, fawning local rag, Daily Mail mates to spread the narrowly missed the playoffs angle. Happy Days. Carry on Blackburn Rovers.

[mustard]

Since GB took over he has spent less than he's had through sales. That is a FACT - The sales of Martin Olsson (2.5m) Formica (600k) Scott Dann (1.5m) Rochina, Judge, Jack O' Connell, Anthony O'Connor, (all undisclosed) all paid for more than the transfer fees we've paid out.

If you want to do the stats - be my guest. I had a look for the Shane Duffy price article because I am 99% sure we paid 300k upfront with the rest after promotion. The rest that included fees; Steele, Marshall, Cairney, Conway, Gestede, Evans.

In terms of improvement - it is undeniable that his transfer business has been an improvement of what we had. This statement of "GB has had lots of legroom to move players about" is used constantly to show more failings - when in fact, if you look at the departure list of the last two seasons, you'd see just how difficult its been to get rid of so many players and bring in adequate replacements on a negative spend.

List of players that needed replacing when GB took over;

David Goodwillie, Diego Rosado, Morten Gamst, Leon Best, Givet, Orr, Nuno Henrique, Bruno Ribiero, Dj Campbell, Fabio Nunes, Nuno Gomes, Edinho Junior, Jordan Slew, Danny Murphy, Colin Kazim Richards, Sandiomerski, Jake Kean, Dixon Etuhu. Thats almost a whole squad. When we sarcastically mention Songo'o and Dabo - Just how likely would anyone be able to replace that lot with complete quality, on a negative spend... Bruce Almighty?

How is it possible to argue that he's been well backed in the transfer market without mentioning this also? When Mick Mc or Steve Mc took over, did they have 200k a week of players on their books who either 1) had signed the contract during a criminal environment or 2) did not even want to play or try for the club.

The answer is no. If you want to talk about how GB has had a plethora of options, money and legroom - please don't forget the huge pile of @#/? that he inherited from the morons before. The embargo is a DIRECT RESULT of spunking our parachute money on shebby's day off, signing Best, Rhodes, Murphy, Etuhu and giving extensions to Robbo, Orr etc and those mistakes have cost us big time and dented chances of promotion - its undeniable.

Its called having a balanced view.

Worth mentioning, the board negotiate the sale of outgoing players. Not Bowyer. He states who he wants to go, the rest is negotiated above him. A blind man and his dog could have seen who needed turfing out of Rovers after Kean. Maybe we should be crediting Shaw for his work in clearing the deadwood? Also, it's easy to look at Bowyer doing so well in this respect but I have no doubt that any other manager would have looked to do the same upon taking over, but credit where it's due, he's improved us in the transfer market since Kean. I'm not suggesting Bowyer hasn't had some difficult issues to deal with, and dealt with them well, but I would argue he also spunked plenty of money on players that quite frankly aren't worth it. Also I'd imagine the Duffy fee has plenty of clauses - not just an "after promotion" payment. Not sure Everton would be dumb enough to agree to that.

You must remember however, Bowyer has had a relatively stable last 18 months. He was backed very well, able to build his side that cost him over £3mill in total (with an £8mill striker ready and waiting at the club). After spending all that money, after getting the deadwood cleared, the football team hasn't found any consistency in the last two years. How many more years does he deserve? If he can't get a settled squad and work out some decent tactics in such a long time, then what's the hope for the future?

[mustard]

i guess we'll never know. What we do know is that he would have received much scorn because his brand of football makes Big Sams like watching brazil. Our school of science crew who sit behind the goals and as a result can see little of the game would have been booing home wins against rivals in no time.

Who knows how he'd have played? Lambert adapted his tactics from Championship (where he was attacking) to the Premiership (where his teams were far more defensive). Pulis has always come across to me like a man who knows how to bring the best out of a team. Who knows how he would have set us up, but I'd imagine we'd be a hell of a lot closer to the top 2. As I said, whether the football would have been pretty or simply dull and effective, we'll never know. One thing's for certain, football under Bowyer is dull and ineffective.

[Andyblue2]

Carry on Blackburn Rovers.

Bowyer would be Kenneth Williams

Shelfy is a fat Charles Hawtrey

Sid James???

[den]

Bowyer would be Kenneth Williams

Shelfy is a fat Charles Hawtrey

Sid James???

Mrs D.

[JBiz]

Worth mentioning, the board negotiate the sale of outgoing players. Not Bowyer. He states who he wants to go, the rest is negotiated above him. A blind man and his dog could have seen who needed turfing out of Rovers after Kean. Maybe we should be crediting Shaw for his work in clearing the deadwood? Also, it's easy to look at Bowyer doing so well in this respect but I have no doubt that any other manager would have looked to do the same upon taking over, but credit where it's due, he's improved us in the transfer market since Kean. I'm not suggesting Bowyer hasn't had some difficult issues to deal with, and dealt with them well, but I would argue he also spunked plenty of money on players that quite frankly aren't worth it. Also I'd imagine the Duffy fee has plenty of clauses - not just an "after promotion" payment. Not sure Everton would be dumb enough to agree to that.

You must remember however, Bowyer has had a relatively stable last 18 months. He was backed very well, able to build his side that cost him over £3mill in total (with an £8mill striker ready and waiting at the club). After spending all that money, after getting the deadwood cleared, the football team hasn't found any consistency in the last two years. How many more years does he deserve? If he can't get a settled squad and work out some decent tactics in such a long time, then what's the hope for the future?

Personally - I'd argue that 2 seasons is not "a long time".

I see the point your making, what hope do we have that he will do better than he already has? The answer that is ridiculously difficult to answer because of so many variables. As for crediting shaw - a couple of posters have missed my point - When discussing the transfer business as a "free reign", surely we should accept that he NEEDED to replace so many players in such a short space of time. Shaw is nothing, not even worth discussing because like many have suggested on here - his influence is negligible and his intentions are questionable.

Nobody in the top 8 has had to replace huge swathes of their playing squad on a negative spend. We can keep talking about how GB has "spent 3m" or whatever but we are ignoring the damage done prior to those "18 stable months" (which he is ultimately responsible for).

Cirumstance has dictated transfer business for the past 18 months - I would argue that we've done very well considering. its easy to see how the huge player upheaval could have caused even more of a downward spiral.

If GB could have kept the players sold and still invested that money? I'd have to say in my opinion we'd have had more success.

[Athlete]

Dream scenario. Green light to bring in 25 players, no real boss above him, no targets, no performance reviews, no pressure, nice contract, ready made excuses, fawning local rag, Daily Mail mates to spread the narrowly missed the playoffs angle. Happy Days. Carry on Blackburn Rovers.

Just needs to Carry on picking up a nice earner for being an overpromoted coach

[USABlue]

Just listened to GB's post match Big Club interview and he sounds totally cheesed off. Sounds like he has little control of how some of his players carry out the game plan.

Ok.

Did Tony Pulis apply for the Rovers job?

Anybody?

I highly doubt that. Does the timing even work out? were we seeking a manager when he was binned from Stoke.

[Blue blood]

Personally - I'd argue that 2 seasons is not "a long time".

I see the point your making, what hope do we have that he will do better than he already has? The answer that is ridiculously difficult to answer because of so many variables. As for crediting shaw - a couple of posters have missed my point - When discussing the transfer business as a "free reign", surely we should accept that he NEEDED to replace so many players in such a short space of time. Shaw is nothing, not even worth discussing because like many have suggested on here - his influence is negligible and his intentions are questionable.

Nobody in the top 8 has had to replace huge swathes of their playing squad on a negative spend. We can keep talking about how GB has "spent 3m" or whatever but we are ignoring the damage done prior to those "18 stable months" (which he is ultimately responsible for).

Cirumstance has dictated transfer business for the past 18 months - I would argue that we've done very well considering. its easy to see how the huge player upheaval could have caused even more of a downward spiral.

If GB could have kept the players sold and still invested that money? I'd have to say in my opinion we'd have had more success.

Disagree on a few points about lack of free reign, negative spend etc. but very well argued. Obviously there's Ipswich who have spent a lot less than us but are doing better - although they are a case on their own - but then you can also argue the likes of Brentford and Wolves have come up from a division and are doing better than us. In Wolves case in particular they've had just a radical an overhaul over the past 18 months - in fact they had it harder as they were in league one. So I disagree with you but see the point you're making, it wasn't a great situation for GB to go into (understatement),

The bit I've highlighted in bold is another bone of contention, but perhaps where the biggest difference between us lie. I'd say that there is little hope that GB will do better than he currently has, in fact worst, Why - because we have consistently under-performed this season with some talented players, with two of the best strikers in the division we're nowhere near promotion, the very random squad rotation, the negative tactics, the tactics and players clearly not complementing each other, the appalling post-match excuses, the same stupid mistakes which we don't learn from - all of which suggest Bowyer isn't improving. Now we both know the situation is going to get worse as FFP bites, so given that he's not learning from his mistakes and can't get us close with the (talented) squad he has now, what makes you think he'll do better when we're facing restrictions and a more limited playing squad?

[Gav]

Maybe go back and re-read what I wrote.

I did and it was still bunkum.

[Amo]

I did and it was still bunkum.

I never said Bowyer inherited a dream scenario, I said quite the opposite.

Learn to read.

[Tom]

Well it's confirmed we can't reach last years points total - negative momentum

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Sounds totally disinterested.

[Stuart]

Well it's confirmed we can't reach last years points total - negative momentum

I'm not convinced it's a tougher league than last season either. Certainly not because of the ex-PL teams that joined.

I think we will find it harder next season though.

Nobody knows what to do though because changing the manager is unthinkable for some reason. Bowyer's new tack of blaming the players is only going to end up losing the dressing room though.