[Archived] Gary Bowyer Discussion

[JBiz]

Now we both know the situation is going to get worse as FFP bites, so given that he's not learning from his mistakes and can't get us close with the (talented) squad he has now, what makes you think he'll do better when we're facing restrictions and a more limited playing squad?

I'm not convinced he will do any better to be honest. I'd like to think he will get better but the variables in terms of losing quality point to a scenario where achieving the same as he has this season would be a success.

It's a dire mindset- because we all know the mistakes made a few years back are massively hindering our potential to bounce back. The issue remains that changing manager is likely to be another one of those mistakes.

There is not a shred of evidence that can point me to the understanding that changing the manager will lead to an improvement in quality. Unfortunately there is evidence that- like our playing squad, changes going forward will be replacing expensive with cheap, and cheap with bargain basement.

Surely I'm not the only person who dreads what the cheap option to GB is?

If this was a normal football scenario- where we knew that the debt would have to go, we knew the owners had the best intentions, we knew the board and directors had the clubs interests at heart - the answer would be easy- get someone who can deliver promotion to clear the debt before it's too late.

We have no idea what the long term plan is and can only assume. If we assume the plan is to carry on as they have since buying the club- we are screwed either way; we stick with GB and hope to god he can pull off a miracle and get a weakening squad up the league or hope for a positive change on the bench which would include a 180degree change of direction from the owners in terms of hiring technique.... Gasp.

I, for one echo many of PBs sentiments with GB.

He is trying certain things that I agree with and can see benefit in- whilst at the same time he has glaring deficiencies. I still believe he is one of the people you can count on one hand at Ewood- who's intentions are for the better of the club.

That counts for a lot when lots of your recent troubles are caused by gravy train chancers... Who could be quite easily let in once again.

In a nutshell though- one positive is GB had worked decently in crazy conditions. If FFP is going to bite and we are going to see another boat load of players leave, I'd like to think we've seen enough of him being able to cope.

[onlyonejackwalker]

Well it's confirmed we can't reach last years points total - negative momentum

It's a very poor do. Another 20 million chucked at it and not even a lick of paint to show for it. Disgraceful really. Get it wrong in football and the fall out can be disastrous. We're paying poor quality contractors top dollar to work in this business and it stinks. Zero value for investment. Some seem to think it's perfectly acceptable. Like customer services standards in the UK as long as your no worse than the competition then that's just fine. Severe downgrade of standards and quality within this organisation. Lack of common sense. Lack of ability. Without competent directors and inspired management what do people expect other than bang average mediocrity. Rhubarb.

[Stuart]

I'm not convinced he will do any better to be honest. I'd like to think he will get better but the variables in terms of losing quality point to a scenario where achieving the same as he has this season would be a success.

It's a dire mindset- because we all know the mistakes made a few years back are massively hindering our potential to bounce back. The issue remains that changing manager is likely to be another one of those mistakes.

There is not a shred of evidence that can point me to the understanding that changing the manager will lead to an improvement in quality. Unfortunately there is evidence that- like our playing squad, changes going forward will be replacing expensive with cheap, and cheap with bargain basement.

Surely I'm not the only person who dreads what the cheap option to GB is?

If this was a normal football scenario- where we knew that the debt would have to go, we knew the owners had the best intentions, we knew the board and directors had the clubs interests at heart - the answer would be easy- get someone who can deliver promotion to clear the debt before it's too late.

We have no idea what the long term plan is and can only assume. If we assume the plan is to carry on as they have since buying the club- we are screwed either way; we stick with GB and hope to god he can pull off a miracle and get a weakening squad up the league or hope for a positive change on the bench which would include a 180degree change of direction from the owners in terms of hiring technique.... Gasp.

I, for one echo many of PBs sentiments with GB.

He is trying certain things that I agree with and can see benefit in- whilst at the same time he has glaring deficiencies. I still believe he is one of the people you can count on one hand at Ewood- who's intentions are for the better of the club.

That counts for a lot when lots of your recent troubles are caused by gravy train chancers... Who could be quite easily let in once again.

In a nutshell though- one positive is GB had worked decently in crazy conditions. If FFP is going to bite and we are going to see another boat load of players leave, I'd like to think we've seen enough of him being able to cope.

i really cannot understand the mentality that sticking with Bowyer is the best option simply because the alternative is unknown. If that was the mentality you lived your life by you would never change anything.

The evidence suggests that:

- Bowyer or his scouting team can pick some decent players. I'd say about 60% success rate.

- Bowyer cannot get the best out of them consistently.

- The vast majority of managers who get promoted, or even play-off placing a, are experienced and usually also strong characters - rarely coaches

- We have no idea who Venkys would choose to replace managers because their previous choices have been on the advice of JA, Shebby and Aggers.

- Shaw, daft as it sounds, does have previous for bringing in decent managers.

What is stopping them from making the change with all that in the mix? A sense that the fan representatives closest to the club are happy with Bowyer? Lack of protests? Fear? Intentional (in)action?

If you were on a ship that was slowly sinking, would you avoid getting into a lifeboat because you were worried that the lifeboat might sink? Pretty soon those lifeboats are going to be submerged under water and it will be too late.

It's a very poor do. Another 20 million chucked at it and not even a lick of paint to show for it. Disgraceful really. Get it wrong in football and the fall out can be disastrous. We're paying poor quality contractors top dollar to work in this business and it stinks. Zero value for investment. Some seem to think it's perfectly acceptable. Like customer services standards in the UK as long as your no worse than the competition then that's just fine. Severe downgrade of standards and quality within this organisation. Lack of common sense. Lack of ability. Without competent directors and inspired management what do people expect other than bang average mediocrity. Rhubarb.

And in this industry there are no competitors!

[Blue blood]

I'm not convinced he will do any better to be honest. I'd like to think he will get better but the variables in terms of losing quality point to a scenario where achieving the same as he has this season would be a success.

It's a dire mindset- because we all know the mistakes made a few years back are massively hindering our potential to bounce back. The issue remains that changing manager is likely to be another one of those mistakes.

There is not a shred of evidence that can point me to the understanding that changing the manager will lead to an improvement in quality. Unfortunately there is evidence that- like our playing squad, changes going forward will be replacing expensive with cheap, and cheap with bargain basement.

Surely I'm not the only person who dreads what the cheap option to GB is?

If this was a normal football scenario- where we knew that the debt would have to go, we knew the owners had the best intentions, we knew the board and directors had the clubs interests at heart - the answer would be easy- get someone who can deliver promotion to clear the debt before it's too late.

We have no idea what the long term plan is and can only assume. If we assume the plan is to carry on as they have since buying the club- we are screwed either way; we stick with GB and hope to god he can pull off a miracle and get a weakening squad up the league or hope for a positive change on the bench which would include a 180degree change of direction from the owners in terms of hiring technique.... Gasp.

I, for one echo many of PBs sentiments with GB.

He is trying certain things that I agree with and can see benefit in- whilst at the same time he has glaring deficiencies. I still believe he is one of the people you can count on one hand at Ewood- who's intentions are for the better of the club.

That counts for a lot when lots of your recent troubles are caused by gravy train chancers... Who could be quite easily let in once again.

In a nutshell though- one positive is GB had worked decently in crazy conditions. If FFP is going to bite and we are going to see another boat load of players leave, I'd like to think we've seen enough of him being able to cope.

Thanks Jbiz, another well reasoned reply. Totally disagree, but hey, that's football!

Stuart totally sums up my thoughts. Yes we could get worse but we're doomed if we stay with Bowyer. There's a chance with a new manager that we could do better - certainly the potential is there in the squad, and it has shown in this division that a good manager goes a long way. Would we get a good manager - who knows, but the certainty is as we are, it will only end with relegation and us get increasingly worse. I'd risk the chance of something better against certain deterioration.

Yes, if it goes wrong we would get worse quicker than under GB - I agree that could happen. But ultimately we're doomed under him anyway, so let's go with the slight chance of getting a good manager in who could turn the situation round.

Also this chance won't last forever. We seem to be regulars in the last chance saloon, and being honest, even that'll close at some point. So whilst we have the chance of potentially getting better let's go with it, before even the possibility of it is taken away.

[Amo]

I have no faith in Venky's ability to hire a capable manager. I also have no faith that Bowyer is who we need.

At least if we did roll the dice again, an adventitious appointment of the right man is always a possibility.

[Tom]

Bowyer saying we are lacking leaders on the pitch.

That is both a damning judgement of his own work when he brought the vast majority in and most worryingly a possible reason in his head to bring his captain back into the team when he can.

[Andyblue2]

Hanley is a tubby thug, not a leader

[Stuart]

Bowyer saying we are lacking leaders on the pitch.

That is both a damning judgement of his own work when he brought the vast majority in and most worryingly a possible reason in his head to bring his captain back into the team when he can.

Today was a nothing game. A dead rubber it was being called on this very board before a goal was kicked. The manager has to accept responsibility for where we have ended up this season. With nothing to play for its hardly surprising that the players weren't up for it.

This is exactly why I think Bowyer should have blooded some youngsters this past two games. He is on a hiding to nothing and could have taken some of the pressure of himself and the team. It's a further example of a lack of experience for me.

[TBTF]

Thanks Jbiz, another well reasoned reply. Totally disagree, but hey, that's football!

Stuart totally sums up my thoughts. Yes we could get worse but we're doomed if we stay with Bowyer. There's a chance with a new manager that we could do better - certainly the potential is there in the squad, and it has shown in this division that a good manager goes a long way. Would we get a good manager - who knows, but the certainty is as we are, it will only end with relegation and us get increasingly worse. I'd risk the chance of something better against certain deterioration.

Yes, if it goes wrong we would get worse quicker than under GB - I agree that could happen. But ultimately we're doomed under him anyway, so let's go with the slight chance of getting a good manager in who could turn the situation round.

Also this chance won't last forever. We seem to be regulars in the last chance saloon, and being honest, even that'll close at some point. So whilst we have the chance of potentially getting better let's go with it, before even the possibility of it is taken away.

JBIzzle talks of a cheap option to GB.I thought I read that he was on something like £600k a year as our manager and I would reckon there are a good few experienced guys out there who aint earning that much.

But, I think since Liverpool we are seeing a slightly different side to GB. He seems to have moved into ''save his own arse'' mode by talking about the handicap of FFP, lack of leaders, players not being ruthless enough in both boxes. Its the same areas of concern we all had for the first 40 games but he kept telling us there was a lot of football to be played, FFP is not ideal but we can manage and a team spirit to die for.

Now its almost a ''not my fault guv'' approach. Problem is, that the PE teacher on the touchline who wants to be every players friend is suddenly going to p1ss them all off . Put that aspect alongside his tactical shortcomings and this does not bode well.

whether we should or not be in the play offs I don't know but there s not a shadow of doubt that an experienced and proper manager would have got more out of this bunch. I watched Wolves v Ipswich before Ewood today and they aren't any better than us but collectively their managers are getting miles more from their resources than we are.

So having had to endure months of absolute claptrap from him with ridiculous superlatives to describe the most average things and most average players I personally have had enough of him and would like a change. I don't want him pilloried because basically he is probably an honest enough guy , especially when measured against what went before him, but both he and is sub standard coaching crew appear to have peaked and with it arguably going to be harder next season for a lot of reasons we have to act or this could go south very rapidly. so thanks for trying Gary, its not an easy job but we need to try something different.

PS did anybody read that piece in the LT on Tuesday (the Fans Column, Dan Clough)? Jesus H , is that guy on crack or something-''got our pride back and fans really have got something to look forward to next season''.

I repeat something I have said on here a number of times before..... when will somebody inside that Club actually come out and say it as it is instead of this continual vacuum of nothingness and denial that there is a problem. They say the first steps to recovery is accepting there is a problem and we haven't done in 4 plus years.

[Rover_Shaun]

http://m.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/12887746.Dan_Clough_column__At_long_last_we_can_be_proud_of_our_club_again/

Dam Clough's latest delusion fest went under my radar and having searched for it I got funny looks for pissin my sides in Pizza Roma

[TBTF]

http://m.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/12887746.Dan_Clough_column__At_long_last_we_can_be_proud_of_our_club_again/

Dam Clough's latest delusion fest went under my radar and having searched for it I got funny looks for pissin my sides in Pizza Roma

I am starting to think ( as I have for a while to be fair) that the LT is having a love pact with the Club and cant write anything remotely critical/true. Venkys put money in to keep that afloat????

[RevidgeBlue]

Given the fact the owners rather generously imo allowed GB to keep all of his best players in the close season this campaign has been an absolute disaster imo.

Rhodes and Gestede are carrying the manager and many of the underperformers in the rest of the squad like Marshall, Conway, Cairney, Hanley, Brown etc.

Where we'll be when either or both of those two leave god only knows.

All that said it seems clear to me that whatever the quality of the eleven out on the pitch at any one time, GB is completely unable to motivate them or organise an effective game plan. Isn't that twice in a week we've taken the lead, (TWICE against Birmingham, and THREE TIMES against Forest), and failed to hang on for the win. It's like I've commented previously, the result doesn't seem to matter badly enough to the players.

Now we all know that FFP might cause us a considerable headache in the summer but of even greater concern to me is that no matter what the players at your disposal they need to be fully motivated and preferably well organised if you're going to have any chance of success. That clearly isn't happening under GB so I really don't understand the reluctance to replace him on the basis we might get someone worse. I really don't think anyone could have done much worse with this squad than finish fourteen points or so out of the play offs. It's the Moyes at United scenario albeit on a much more modest scale.

[ABBEY]

I am starting to think ( as I have for a while to be fair) that the LT is having a love pact with the Club and cant write anything remotely critical/true. Venkys put money in to keep that afloat????

The Venkygraph

[TBTF]

The Venkygraph

be funny if Balaji's mugshot appeared at the top of the Dan Clough column, ha ha!!

[Gav]

Hanley is a tubby thug, not a leader

Harsh Andy.

Whilst Hanley has been useless for most of this season and hasn't improved in the past few years after showing early promise. It's not all down to the player, the coaching staff at Ewood are useless, I can only think of 1 player that's really improved other than Marcus.

Just another example of mismanagement by those prats in Pune.

[1864roverite]

He proved yesterday that he is NOT the man to take us any further.

Thanks for the stability but you are now taking us backwards.

Time to go

[Rover_Shaun]

Is that Charlton I see on level point with us now???!!! A team who gave us a 6 point head start

[Parsonblue]

"I have to build something - it doesn't just happen overnight. We have tried that trick and tried to throw money at it and it has got us nowhere. Let's settle everything down a little bit. It is certainly a brighter future, but we need to plan it in a different way. It might not be back-page stuff, but we will slowly go about our business and try to be successful for the longer term." Not Gary Bowyer, but the words of Dougie Freedman this week on signing a two year deal at Forest. Gradually, one suspects that some clubs are finally realising that there is no magic wand to conjure up instant success. Again, Freedman was talking about looking towards younger players and bringing them through. I thought Forest and Rovers looked very similar yesterday. Two clubs with players who, on their day, look as good as any but who are also capable of making horrendous errors and two sets of players who simply have been totally inconsistent throughout the season. With both managers operating under an embargo in the summer one suspects that both Freedman and Bowyer will have their work cut out to improve their squads over the summer.

[Athlete]

"I have to build something - it doesn't just happen overnight. We have tried that trick and tried to throw money at it and it has got us nowhere. Let's settle everything down a little bit. It is certainly a brighter future, but we need to plan it in a different way. It might not be back-page stuff, but we will slowly go about our business and try to be successful for the longer term." Not Gary Bowyer, but the words of Dougie Freedman this week on signing a two year deal at Forest. Gradually, one suspects that some clubs are finally realising that there is no magic wand to conjure up instant success. Again, Freedman was talking about looking towards younger players and bringing them through. I thought Forest and Rovers looked very similar yesterday. Two clubs with players who, on their day, look as good as any but who are also capable of making horrendous errors and two sets of players who simply have been totally inconsistent throughout the season. With both managers operating under an embargo in the summer one suspects that both Freedman and Bowyer will have their work cut out to improve their squads over the summer.

Two clubs with dodgy foreign owners

[A cup of beans]

"I have to build something - it doesn't just happen overnight. We have tried that trick and tried to throw money at it and it has got us nowhere. Let's settle everything down a little bit. It is certainly a brighter future, but we need to plan it in a different way. It might not be back-page stuff, but we will slowly go about our business and try to be successful for the longer term." Not Gary Bowyer, but the words of Dougie Freedman this week on signing a two year deal at Forest. Gradually, one suspects that some clubs are finally realising that there is no magic wand to conjure up instant success. Again, Freedman was talking about looking towards younger players and bringing them through. I thought Forest and Rovers looked very similar yesterday. Two clubs with players who, on their day, look as good as any but who are also capable of making horrendous errors and two sets of players who simply have been totally inconsistent throughout the season. With both managers operating under an embargo in the summer one suspects that both Freedman and Bowyer will have their work cut out to improve their squads over the summer.

Forest and Rovers looked similar? The only similarity was a poor defence.

Forest had pace, power, progressive passing, runners and goals from midfield.

Outplayed for the majority.

Your faith is blinding you, Parson.

[chaddyrovers]

Very good points there ParsonBlue. Forest have spend over 20 million pounds on signings since their owners came in and change manager a few times aswell. BUT never got promotion or even close to either.

Both Managers will be looking at free transfers and Loans.

I thought both teams looked like they were on the bench defensive.

Second half both teams looked like they were on holiday.

A Cup of Beans, first half Forest's passing was good but second half Bowyer sorted it tactically.

[A cup of beans]

Sorted it tactically? in what ways?

[Stuart]

"I have to build something - it doesn't just happen overnight. We have tried that trick and tried to throw money at it and it has got us nowhere. Let's settle everything down a little bit. It is certainly a brighter future, but we need to plan it in a different way. It might not be back-page stuff, but we will slowly go about our business and try to be successful for the longer term." Not Gary Bowyer, but the words of Dougie Freedman this week on signing a two year deal at Forest. Gradually, one suspects that some clubs are finally realising that there is no magic wand to conjure up instant success. Again, Freedman was talking about looking towards younger players and bringing them through. I thought Forest and Rovers looked very similar yesterday. Two clubs with players who, on their day, look as good as any but who are also capable of making horrendous errors and two sets of players who simply have been totally inconsistent throughout the season. With both managers operating under an embargo in the summer one suspects that both Freedman and Bowyer will have their work cut out to improve their squads over the summer.

Yet one has a job for life and the other will still end up out if he doesn't perform.

All managers want time, at Rovers they get more than most. Even at the expense of supporters. It's another reason we shouldn't be afraid of no-one wanting the gig.

[Amo]

"I have to build something - it doesn't just happen overnight. We have tried that trick and tried to throw money at it and it has got us nowhere. Let's settle everything down a little bit. It is certainly a brighter future, but we need to plan it in a different way. It might not be back-page stuff, but we will slowly go about our business and try to be successful for the longer term." Not Gary Bowyer, but the words of Dougie Freedman this week on signing a two year deal at Forest. Gradually, one suspects that some clubs are finally realising that there is no magic wand to conjure up instant success. Again, Freedman was talking about looking towards younger players and bringing them through. I thought Forest and Rovers looked very similar yesterday. Two clubs with players who, on their day, look as good as any but who are also capable of making horrendous errors and two sets of players who simply have been totally inconsistent throughout the season. With both managers operating under an embargo in the summer one suspects that both Freedman and Bowyer will have their work cut out to improve their squads over the summer.

Freedman's been in charge of Forest for TWO MONTHS, of course it's early days for him.

Bowyer's had TWO YEARS. The only thing we're building here is more debt.

[arbitro]

"I have to build something - it doesn't just happen overnight. We have tried that trick and tried to throw money at it and it has got us nowhere. Let's settle everything down a little bit. It is certainly a brighter future, but we need to plan it in a different way. It might not be back-page stuff, but we will slowly go about our business and try to be successful for the longer term." Not Gary Bowyer, but the words of Dougie Freedman this week on signing a two year deal at Forest. Gradually, one suspects that some clubs are finally realising that there is no magic wand to conjure up instant success. Again, Freedman was talking about looking towards younger players and bringing them through. I thought Forest and Rovers looked very similar yesterday. Two clubs with players who, on their day, look as good as any but who are also capable of making horrendous errors and two sets of players who simply have been totally inconsistent throughout the season. With both managers operating under an embargo in the summer one suspects that both Freedman and Bowyer will have their work cut out to improve their squads over the summer.

I could accept this from our perspective if there were any signs of improvement but quite frankly, if anything we have regressed (just on the field) and the manager shows no signs of having learnt anything from his mistakes. The only real difference I see with Bowyer is that he is now more public in his criticism of the players which is quite a surprise as last season and earlier this season he was supportive of them generally. Shape, tactics, set up, ability to change the game amongst others) are pretty basic requirements of any manager. In my opinion Bowyer ticks none of these boxes. My belief is that we will continue in the same vein whilst Bowyer is the boss.