[Archived] Gary Bowyer Discussion

[Rover_Shaun]

Also cash is king. We can't wallow in a 1970's re-run indefinately as something has to give. If we don't go up soon it's either our long term place in the top 2 divisions or the clubs itself.

If we had normal owners with no debt I would be happy to pootle along 80's style

[gumboots]

Stopped my post before I got to cash as it was getting a bit wordy. However, the difference between the top league and the rest is vast. The problem is, when you've been at the top table, you get used to living like that and when it isn't there any more you're caught in a cleft stick. Do you carry on spending in the hope of getting back there? Fine if you succeed straight away, but if it doesn't happen cutting your costs becomes an urgent priority. When do you start doing that? How do you balance that against the hope of promotion. There isn't a lot you can do other than change manager. So people lose patience with managers more quickly and call for change. It may not be fair but that's the way it is. You cannot afford to fall down the leagues and slowly work your way back. You need to be moving upwards as fast as possible.

[47er]

For anyone saying "its just like the 70's and 80's again" ask yourselves "Are you enjoying it as much as you did then?"

If not, as I suspect might be the case----------what's the difference?

[Parsonblue]

For anyone saying "its just like the 70's and 80's again" ask yourselves "Are you enjoying it as much as you did then?"

If not, as I suspect might be the case----------what's the difference?

To be honest 47er, I don't feel a difference between watching today or at anytime during the past 50 odd years. Each season is different, each season throws up its joys and disappointments. Of course, some seasons are far better than others but ultimately, I enjoy watching the Rovers no matter what. Even in the darkest days of the early seventies there was hope for better things in the future just as there is today. In the early seventies we couldn't have dreamed of regaining what we lost in the mid-60s but we still enjoyed following the Rovers. In the same way we don't know today when we'll regain top flight status - it may be a year, five years or twenty-five years (as after 1966), but at the end of the day the joy of following your club still remains. Yes, there are times of frustration just as there are times of real pleasure but ultimately you take the rough with the smooth and keep supporting.

[den]

For anyone saying "its just like the 70's and 80's again" ask yourselves "Are you enjoying it as much as you did then?"

If not, as I suspect might be the case----------what's the difference?

I can't believe how people can be so blind 47er.

If they can't see what happened when Venky's came in, sacked a "manager" brought in a coach who proceeded to sell every high earning first team player at the club, "forcing" those out who refused to go - with the ideology that he could bring in inferior, cheaper, players and coach/improve them enough to replace what we had, then there's no hope. We're still forcing players out, Robinson being an example.

Pray tell me the last rovers manager to do that? We've always done that have we? On such a huge scale? Bunkum, absolute bunkum.

Kean used to tell us what his remit was - the rising value of players. Bowyer does exactly the same because he has exactly the same remit. He's said so. Ask why he'll be here next season? - because the owners never intended to put money into transfers, it'll either work this way, or it won't. They're committed to running the club on the cheap and it shows.

[thenodrog]

To be honest 47er, I don't feel a difference between watching today or at anytime during the past 50 odd years. Each season is different, each season throws up its joys and disappointments. Of course, some seasons are far better than others but ultimately, I enjoy watching the Rovers no matter what. Even in the darkest days of the early seventies there was hope for better things in the future just as there is today. In the early seventies we couldn't have dreamed of regaining what we lost in the mid-60s but we still enjoyed following the Rovers. In the same way we don't know today when we'll regain top flight status - it may be a year, five years or twenty-five years (as after 1966), but at the end of the day the joy of following your club still remains. Yes, there are times of frustration just as there are times of real pleasure but ultimately you take the rough with the smooth and keep supporting.

eeeh those were the days. Sat in th' Havvy with a bunch of mates at 3.05 deciding whether to have another pint or to get off to the match!

I can't believe how people can be so blind 47er.

If they can't see what happened when Venky's came in, sacked a "manager" brought in a coach who proceeded to sell every high earning first team player at the club, "forcing" those out who refused to go - with the ideology that he could bring in inferior, cheaper, players and coach/improve them enough to replace what we had, then there's no hope. We're still forcing players out, Robinson being an example.

Pray tell me the last rovers manager to do that? We've always done that have we? On such a huge scale? Bunkum, absolute bunkum.

Kean used to tell us what his remit was - the rising value of players. Bowyer does exactly the same because he has exactly the same remit. He's said so. Ask why he'll be here next season? - because the owners never intended to put money into transfers, it'll either work this way, or it won't. They're committed to running the club on the cheap and it shows.

tbh Since Bosman and FoC I've really no idea why any club needs to put money into transfers. The rules of employment in football have changed massively whilst football management is still stuck in a rut.

[DE.]

I can't believe how people can be so blind 47er.

If they can't see what happened when Venky's came in, sacked a "manager" brought in a coach who proceeded to sell every high earning first team player at the club, "forcing" those out who refused to go - with the ideology that he could bring in inferior, cheaper, players and coach/improve them enough to replace what we had, then there's no hope. We're still forcing players out, Robinson being an example.

Pray tell me the last rovers manager to do that? We've always done that have we? On such a huge scale? Bunkum, absolute bunkum.

Kean used to tell us what his remit was - the rising value of players. Bowyer does exactly the same because he has exactly the same remit. He's said so. Ask why he'll be here next season? - because the owners never intended to put money into transfers, it'll either work this way, or it won't. They're committed to running the club on the cheap and it shows.

I enjoy reading posts from older members regarding Rovers during decades past, and generally refrain from commenting on such things as obviously I have nowhere near as much knowledge as those who were there... but the comparison to the 60's/70's/80's absolutely baffles me. Football is an entirely different machine now, the comparison seems utterly invalid. It's the same game but the structure of the sport has changed to the point where the game itself is the only thing I can comprehend as comparable to the distant past.

Running a football club 30/40/50 years ago was entirely different to how it is done now, and as a result managers are treated very differently now to how they were then. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is open to debate, but I still don't understand why Bowyer is being compared to people who were managing the club in the 70's, considering practically everything about the structure of football has changed since then. I can't think of many modern companies who would look back to the 70's and say "well, it was good enough then, so it's good enough now".

[gumboots]

To be honest 47er, I don't feel a difference between watching today or at anytime during the past 50 odd years. Each season is different, each season throws up its joys and disappointments. Of course, some seasons are far better than others but ultimately, I enjoy watching the Rovers no matter what. Even in the darkest days of the early seventies there was hope for better things in the future just as there is today. In the early seventies we couldn't have dreamed of regaining what we lost in the mid-60s but we still enjoyed following the Rovers. In the same way we don't know today when we'll regain top flight status - it may be a year, five years or twenty-five years (as after 1966), but at the end of the day the joy of following your club still remains. Yes, there are times of frustration just as there are times of real pleasure but ultimately you take the rough with the smooth and keep supporting.

However, PB you, like me are getting old. Times were different then and our mind sets are different.i work with people aged from 11-60 and there are different mind sets among different groups. Sticking with something that isn't working is no longer seen as a virtue. That's why marriages break down, people move jobs more readily, and so on. Cut your losses and move on. You may not like it but that's how it is

[Parsonblue]

However, PB you, like me are getting old. Times were different then and our mind sets are different.i work with people aged from 11-60 and there are different mind sets among different groups. Sticking with something that isn't working is no longer seen as a virtue. That's why marriages break down, people move jobs more readily, and so on. Cut your losses and move on. You may not like it but that's how it is

I don't disagree with any of that gumboots. It's just that I believe that, all things considered, Bowyer is doing a pretty decent job, hence why I believe we should stick with him.

Enjoy your holiday at Easter as it's well deserved. Nobody outside the teaching profession really understands just what a difficult job it is and how much of your holiday is actually taken up with work!

[47er]

To be honest 47er, I don't feel a difference between watching today or at anytime during the past 50 odd years. Each season is different, each season throws up its joys and disappointments. Of course, some seasons are far better than others but ultimately, I enjoy watching the Rovers no matter what. Even in the darkest days of the early seventies there was hope for better things in the future just as there is today. In the early seventies we couldn't have dreamed of regaining what we lost in the mid-60s but we still enjoyed following the Rovers. In the same way we don't know today when we'll regain top flight status - it may be a year, five years or twenty-five years (as after 1966), but at the end of the day the joy of following your club still remains. Yes, there are times of frustration just as there are times of real pleasure but ultimately you take the rough with the smooth and keep supporting.

Well Parson, each to his own and that's a fair enough response. Personally I felt better in the darkest days of the early 70's than I do now. There was hope then and at least you knew the directors wanted the best for the club as much as you did. The enemy then was the team you were playing not your own owners or admin. The debt wasn't quite so big either.

[onlyonejackwalker]

Thank goodness we still have some fans who aren't willing to accept mediocrity and a sub-par club either.

Of course, the same people espousing the "we are where we are" mentality were also telling us for years that we were destined to drop, and are now rewriting history to suggest our relegation was inevitable and we were always destined to return to a lowly status.

Oddly, this completely ignores the fact we stayed in the PL and at times thrived in the PL for over ten years after Jack passed on. For many of those years we had little funds, in comparison with the rest of the division, but countered that disadvantage with superb staff at board level and managers who could get the best out of limited resources. We had a blip with Ince but bounced back by appointing Big Sam and once again holding our own in the land of the giants.

Our demise only became "inevitable" when Venky's came to town, ripped apart the board structure, binned off a great manager, replaced him with a rookie, sold off all of our good players and left us in a mess we have never recovered from. Why should anybody accept this as the natural order of things? Why should we be remotely happy or content watching our club spiral into a financial black hole whilst we still employ a rookie manager and employ a board room with no talent, passion or pride.

Good on those who demand better. This isn't how it was meant to be and I fail to see how anything substantial has changed since Venky's first came to town and disemboweled everything, taking a @#/? on the legacy of this club and doing it with an arrogance that drove thousands of fans to exile.

Well said DE. You will probably be told however that you are living in the past and need to 'move on'.

Its getting so much harder for me, but I keep trying to remind myself we are Blackburn Rovers Football Club, founder members of the football league and a very proud community institution that has graced the game of football in this country since its inception. I think of our history and achievements and the amazing players and managers we have had, the seasons of success as Britains smallest PL town team, European adventures, cup semis and finals and the qualities of the men who contributed running the club over many years, often for little reward. I think of all the fans who have truly loved and supported the club, asking for little but honesty, commitment and shared endeavour whenever the players pulled on the shirt. Don Martin, Bobby Svarc, Metcalfe, Hird, Micky Speight, John Lowey, Noel, Noel, Scotty Sellars, Windy Miller, Derek Faz, one Simon Garner, Wilcox on the wing, Gallagher, Shearer, Sutton, Ryan Nelson and big Glen Keeley. The even bigger Samba. Tugay!!!!! Makes me sad thinking of him. These lads and countless others grafted for this club with a courage and belief I have never seen since. (You think some of todays players care like these lads did? Not a chance, not even close, witnessed each and every time they fail to track back, go in hard, win their headers, drink in the pub or get Chinese takeaways in their shiny cars).

For me, those are the people that are and were Blackburn through and through. Not the current incumbents, currying favour to remain in pole position, that people strangely lavish such praise upon undeservedly.

Genuinely the only crumb of comfort for me amongst the continuing car crash, is remaining very proud of our amazing away support this last year or two. I've rarely been there, simply cannot justify the cost and time anymore, but feel the support provided has far outweighed what has been deserved. I just wish they had been given something more to cheer about. There is simply little else to talk positively about, unless getting all little boy giddy and trembly about the recent cup run.

There are enough of us simply not willing to accept 3rd, 4th or 5th best and accept the current position as inevitable or part of our natural order. Total bunkum. There was NOTHING inevitable about our relegation, well not until Kean was appointed. At least 10,000 of us, most of which have sensibly decided to withdraw their financial and emotional support until such time as the club deserves it. Simply put, with no time to waste, we need a leader that galvanises the entire club, unites the fan base, excites and motivates the players and gives us at long last a decent chance of rescuing ourselves from years and years of lower league football, small crowds, transfer embargos, ridicule and unruly finances.

If this was your own business, there is absolutely no way you would continue to lose 20million per year without at least giving yourself half a chance of the ultimate prize. Your first major decision would be to appoint the most suitably qualified applicants for the most important positions within your multi-million pound organisation. See you later Shelfy, thank yourself lucky for all this extra cash and jog on charpish back to PNE. Sorry GB, you tried your best but it was clear from very early on in your reign that you did not have a clue how to set us up defensively, goals against mirrors or exceeds goals scored and results and points gleaned remain way too similar for any but the simplest or biaised of fans to argue improvement. Obviously, it should have cost you your job but your stil here giving it a right good go.

(I find it amazing that you could chuck 20 million at your business each year with zero improvement. Its almost impossible, but the Venky's have it down to a tee).

[DE.]

Well said DE. You will probably be told however that you are living in the past and need to 'move on'.

Yeah, I'm sure I need to move on and stop being bitter.

Am I bitter? You better @#/? believe I'm bitter, for all the reasons I mentioned in the post you quoted and for all the reasons in yours. Why should I and how can I move on when nothing has changed? We still have a disorganised mess for a board. We still have a rookie manager. We're still bringing in cheap players to replace better ones. We're still in the Championship. We're still in a financial black hole which is getting worse with each passing month. I'm bitter because the club I've supported for 24 years has been humiliated for five years by owners who have no clue what they're doing and with an unabashed arrogance which makes me sick.

Move on to what? Nothing's changed! Stability just means Venky's have stopped talking and nobody's reporting on us anymore. Even during our "unstable" first season we weren't very far off the points total we currently have, we were caught up in a relegation fight purely because the division had an unusually high cut off point for relegation that season.

I'm genuinely glad some supporters can ignore all of the above and enjoy going to watch and support the Rovers, and praise the club and manager for everything and anything they do. But don't look down on those of us who can't block out the bigger picture or ignore the financial elephant in the room. For me it's not possible to do this, my anger and bitterness is still far too strong, and from many posts on here it seems that isn't uncommon.

Until Venky's get lost or fix the mistakes of the past my bitterness will remain - and no matter how many times the word stability is mentioned, they haven't even started to clean up this mess.

[yoda]

But if as you implied Sutton isn't qualified (as bear in mind an ex pro) then the fan base as sure as kean aint qualified to comment. So let's just close this thread now eh?

You were asking how long has Sutton been a manager, not how long has he been watching football. I'd wager you've also been watching football longer than Jose Mourinho but with all due respect, I know which one I'd have in charge at Ewood.

Similarly Sutton will have forgotten more about professional football than me and you could ever hope to know - therefore his point of view is probably quite valid.

Rest of the post I agree with. Worryingly it would appear that the owners will have the patience to stick with him - it's shown in the past that they can be incredibly loyal to managers, particularly it would seem if they come under pressure by the fanbase. Not sacking him could prove extremely detrimental in due course - mind you, so could sacking him unless a competent selection process was carried out. Rock and a hard place if you ask me.

@#/? it, close the bloody messageboard - what does it really matter.

lol

one poster saying close the thread one poster saying close the MB

how precious are you ?

[Amo]

You give one of the circumstances a mention. Name a manager who inherited a squad choc full of players who needed paying off? A squad misshapen and abused by people with their face deep in the trough.

Or the distinct negative atmosphere inherited? Does that even qualify as a factor, to a fan who's not there to examine it's toxic nature? No surprise that we performed admirably on a bigger stage in front of more passionate audience.

(Queue "stop blaming the fans")

It doesn't change the fact that players HAVE been paid off and loaned out, at Bowyer's discretion. Imagine if the owners had turned around and told Bowyer that in order to comply with FFP, we can't afford to make sweeping changes and he has to make do with the squad he's got, with a couple of freebies here and there. That didn't happen. Instead, in his first season in charge, Bowyer was allowed to sign no less than 15 players. And he has continued to be backed in the transfer market, in terms of signings and keeping hold of his best strikers.

As for the 'negative atmosphere', Bowyer had an advantage there insomuch that he was 'one of us' and not another Kean-type figure coming in under dubious circumstances. It's only in the last few months that he's had to contend with murmurs of discontent. Up until then, the fanbase has by and large been quite patient with the job he's done here.

[Rover_Shaun]

And yet in that pre-FFP period, but in full knowledge it would hit long and hard, he still favoured gathering an army of wingers over a full back.

[otto man]

lol

one poster saying close the thread one poster saying close the MB

how precious are you ?

Not precious at all me old fruit bat, but you can't have it both ways. On the one hand Sutton aint qualified to comment cos he hasn't managed long enough for you but it's ok for the amateur fan base to do so. Logic much?

Tell me you don't really see the irony of your post Yoda

[Gav]

Not precious at all me old fruit bat, but you can't have it both ways. On the one hand Sutton aint qualified to comment cos he hasn't managed long enough for you but it's ok for the amateur fan base to do so. Logic much?

Tell me you don't really see the irony of your post Yoda

You couldn't make it up otto

[yoda]

Not precious at all me old fruit bat, but you can't have it both ways. On the one hand Sutton aint qualified to comment cos he hasn't managed long enough for you but it's ok for the amateur fan base to do so. Logic much?

Tell me you don't really see the irony of your post Yoda

You couldn't make it up otto

I actually said HOW QUALIFIED is he, which took into account his spell as a manager, would you accept any statements about the club made by coco ?

[Gav]

I actually said HOW QUALIFIED is he, which took into account his spell as a manager, would you accept any statements about the club made by coco ?

He's certainly more qualified than us lot on here Yoda!

I've been told Suttons been at Ewood many times over the past few years both in a professional capacity and as a fan/ex-player, so that makes him qualified in my book.

[Rover_Shaun]

So glad you have finally agreed that the fans are qualified to comment Gav

After all, like Sutton, most have been to plenty of Rovers games down the years and will have kicked a pigs bladder into a string netting a few times.

[Gav]

So glad you have finally agreed that the fans are qualified to comment Gav

After all, like Sutton, most have been to plenty of Rovers games down the years and will have kicked a pigs bladder into a string netting a few times.

I've agreed nothing and I certainly don't agree with someone who has a dingle profile picture, very strange

[Rover_Shaun]

Eh?? It's Dyce shaking hands with Bowyer with lots of Rovers fans in the background

He didn't give him any tips that's for sure.

You said Sutton was qualified because he's watched Rovers a few times. Therefore by default Rovers fans are qualified to comment too.

[yoda]

Maybe there should be an exam before we enrol as MB members to see what we are qualified to make comments on

It is still an MB, is it ?

[Gav]

You seem to be attributing comments to me that I've not made, I NEVER said anything about posters not being allowed to comment, but I guess you both know that.

As for the dingle picture, I've always had my doubts about your Shaun

[Majiball]

The pitfalls of optimism:

An optimist goes for a check up at the doctor:

Right we have your results back and you're obese, unless you lose weight at your present weight you have a 50% chance of dying of a heart attack before you are 60. Sweet the optimist thinks it won't be me I'll be in the lucky 50%, it will be fine. Nothing changes. The next year he goes back for his check up to the same doctor. Right we have your results back in, nothing has changed in fact you have gained more weight, as matters stand you have a 75% chance of having a heart attack before you are 60. Man thinks that's not bad I'm lucky, I'll be in the 25% for sure. Nothing changes. The following year the man returns and once again he's put on weight and the doctor tells him his chances are very slim and down to 10% this year. The doctor insists he must lose weight and pushes hard. The man sits there listens and leaves. On his way home he thinks about it all and goes well for three years he's been saying I'm gonna have a heart attack and yet nothing, I must be one of the lucky ones, no chance it will be me and of he tots to the pub. The following year at the mans scheduled check-up time the doctor places a wreath on a grave.

Optimism a confirmed brain defect caused by back firing synapses in the brain.