[Archived] Gary Bowyer Discussion

[Amo]

Yeah, but as the team is likely to be in a lower league it's probably less of an issue for them.

Loaning young players out for experience isn't exactly new. I find it odd that so many would apparently be happy to have Raya as direct back up to the first team, when we already have a backup keeper with some experience in Eastwood.

I think this comes from having no outstanding goalkeepers at the club. In the past, the usual paradigm is a No.1, a back-up goalie, and a young understudy. There's little between Steele & Eastwood, they're both pretty average, whereas Raya is highly-rated and apparently has no shortage of suitors. If we can't give him any assurances about his future here then we might well lose him for nothing.

[Stuart]

Stuart, Buffon and casillas both played at the highest level at 19, played at world cups and in champion league games, age shouldn't matter

Two of the greatest goalkeepers of all time probably are the best examples.

However, when would you say they were at their peak, in their teens, their 20s or their 30s?

[roverandout]

I would say throughout most of their careers, if anything casillas has been on the wain for the last few seasons and buffon is no longer first choice for his country

[DE.]

I think this comes from having no outstanding goalkeepers at the club. In the past, the usual paradigm is a No.1, a back-up goalie, and a young understudy. There's little between Steele & Eastwood, they're both pretty average, whereas Raya is highly-rated and apparently has no shortage of suitors. If we can't give him any assurances about his future here then we might well lose him for nothing.

Asking him to go out on loan for some experience would surely be an assurance that we're prepping him for a first team role? It seems a better option than him sitting on the bench for most of the season and playing in the reserves.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

After Yesterday game, Gary Bowyer came over to away support even tho some Huddersfield fans were on the pitch ,kissed the Rovers badge and spent few mins applauding the Rovers fans

The fans deserve a medal never mind a round of applause!

[Mike E]

On the issue of Raya making mistakes on loan, at least it'd be with another club, so when he came back here it'd be a 'change of scenery' so to speak.

Nonetheless, I'd be happy to put him in. He's a very vocal keeper which is impressive at his age imo. The 2 or 3 games I've seen him play for Southport, the match vs Leeds and the u21s cup final, he impressed me in each.

His skills (imo) are being vocal, reflexes, knowing when to come/when to stay and he likes to roll it out (though when he does kick, they are pretty accurate too). Be nice to see if he can do it consistently for us. One game (away), one clean sheet.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Isn't it a more parsimonious explanation that Kean simply wasn't good enough?

De Gea, Lloris, Valdes, Courtois, have all established themselves at a young age.

Also, "exception that proves the rule" is nonsensical. I think you mean he's "an exception to the rule".

It is indeed. The word "proves" is used in the old-fashioned sense of "tests", also as seen in "proving ground". Exceptions are evaluated to test if the rule is valid or not.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Asking him to go out on loan for some experience would surely be an assurance that we're prepping him for a first team role? It seems a better option than him sitting on the bench for most of the season and playing in the reserves.

We put Paul Bradshaw in young and he did well, going on to play in the top flight for several years.

FFP is a burden but mostly if we keep trying to do what we were doing before it was imposed. It's time for bold moves: mine would be to make Raya number one and bin one of Eastwood and Steele and to make King joint first choice striker hopefully with Rhodes. I would also put two of the young midfielders in as starters, getting rid of half a dozen of the substandard ones we have got, and move heaven and earth to get a couple of loanees from the Prem..

[Stuart]

FFP is a burden but mostly if we keep trying to do what we were doing before it was imposed. It's time for bold moves: mine would be to make Raya number one and bin one of Eastwood and Steele and to make King joint first choice striker hopefully with Rhodes. I would also put two of the young midfielders in as starters, getting rid of half a dozen of the substandard ones we have got, and move heaven and earth to get a couple of loanees from the Prem..

Thinking about it though, with our income and fanbase being what it is, we are never likely to get out of this embargo - even if we sell our best players and bring in worse ones. Even if we did then our first 'proper' signing is likely to see us back under it again. That being the case, a bold move (by Venkys) would be to bring in freebies from the PL and loans by outbidding our competitors on wages.

As far as I see it, promotion to the PL is the only way out of this situation - one which is worsening every season. Because - even ignoring our debt for a moment - without PL money, or some serious sponsorship income, we cannot put together a squad to compete in the Championship. We are looking at League One - possibly still under an embargo!

[USABlue]

Sadly, you and others are unable to recognise tongue in cheek stuff which what 'Coyley' was all about really. Having said that, he did take Burnley up on a shoestring budget which is something I am 99% certain Bowyer wont do for Rovers.

As for 'Wee Dougie', he did a cracking job at Palace who were in worse disarray than Rovers. After a bright start at Bolton, he lost the plot a bit. However, I will back my judgement and say he will become a top manager within the next few years.

You slate Bowyer vehemently but all you can say about your babe wee dougie is he lost the plot a bit. He failed miserably would be more accurate no?

[Exiled in Toronto]

Thinking about it though, with our income and fanbase being what it is, we are never likely to get out of this embargo - even if we sell our best players and bring in worse ones. Even if we did then our first 'proper' signing is likely to see us back under it again. That being the case, a bold move (by Venkys) would be to bring in freebies from the PL and loans by outbidding our competitors on wages.

As far as I see it, promotion to the PL is the only way out of this situation - one which is worsening every season. Because - even ignoring our debt for a moment - without PL money, or some serious sponsorship income, we cannot put together a squad to compete in the Championship. We are looking at League One - possibly still under an embargo!

To fully get out of the situation I actually think we need two promotions, the first will only go to pay off the debt.

So if we are always going to be under FFP, it needs some strategic thinking to fully exploit what it lets you do rather than keep being constrained by what it doesn't let you do. To me it makes a case for something like Watford and Brentford seem to have and is the norm here in North America, where assembling a squad is a skilled, strategic task where you mould the squad as a whole under a given set of constraints. Not leave it to some doofus manager signing one player at a time with no masterplan.

By the way, anyone feeling bad about what we are paying Best, my Toronto Blue Jays are paying 80,000 quid a week to a pitcher for the next year (and last where he didn;t throw a ball) while he is free to find another team.

[Stuart]

To fully get out of the situation I actually think we need two promotions, the first will only go to pay off the debt.

So if we are always going to be under FFP, it needs some strategic thinking to fully exploit what it lets you do rather than keep being constrained by what it doesn't let you do. To me it makes a case for something like Watford and Brentford seem to have and is the norm here in North America, where assembling a squad is a skilled, strategic task where you mould the squad as a whole under a given set of constraints. Not leave it to some doofus manager signing one player at a time with no masterplan.

By the way, anyone feeling bad about what we are paying Best, my Toronto Blue Jays are paying 80,000 quid a week to a pitcher for the next year (and last where he didn;t throw a ball) while he is free to find another team.

Agree completely.

Two promotions means one plus staying up (very difficult).

Exploiting FFP is exactly what we need we are goosed with the current debt so a bit more makes no difference. Sadly we have an administrative team unwilling or incapable of doing so and all of the noises coming from the club are that FFP is a shield to deflect responsibility very nicely from themselves.

[Parsonblue]

To fully get out of the situation I actually think we need two promotions, the first will only go to pay off the debt.

So if we are always going to be under FFP, it needs some strategic thinking to fully exploit what it lets you do rather than keep being constrained by what it doesn't let you do. To me it makes a case for something like Watford and Brentford seem to have and is the norm here in North America, where assembling a squad is a skilled, strategic task where you mould the squad as a whole under a given set of constraints. Not leave it to some doofus manager signing one player at a time with no masterplan.

By the way, anyone feeling bad about what we are paying Best, my Toronto Blue Jays are paying 80,000 quid a week to a pitcher for the next year (and last where he didn;t throw a ball) while he is free to find another team.

From what I have read that is the reason why Warburton is getting the push at Brentford. They want to go down the continental route of having others assemble the squad, from what I've read they seem to want to follow a "Moneyball" philosophy and then hire a coach to get the best out of them. Southampton do something similar. It would, at least, prevent the continuous turnover of players every time the manager changes.

[DE.]

We put Paul Bradshaw in young and he did well, going on to play in the top flight for several years.

FFP is a burden but mostly if we keep trying to do what we were doing before it was imposed. It's time for bold moves: mine would be to make Raya number one and bin one of Eastwood and Steele and to make King joint first choice striker hopefully with Rhodes. I would also put two of the young midfielders in as starters, getting rid of half a dozen of the substandard ones we have got, and move heaven and earth to get a couple of loanees from the Prem..

I wonder who is the youngest first choice keeper in the Championship? Button at Derby would be the youngest out of the top 8 teams, he's 26. In Steele we may already have one of if not the youngest first choice keeper in the league. He's 24.

Raya being vocal is good, but without the experience to back up his commands will defenders necessarily care what he's saying? Will the likes of Kilgallon, Duffy, Hanley or Spurr pay enough attention to the commands of a kid who was playing for the youth team only a year previous?

Age may not hinder talent, but it will hinder the standing a player has in the team, and goalkeepers need to be near the top of the pile.

[Andyblue2]

Agree completely.

Two promotions means one plus staying up (very difficult).

Exploiting FFP is exactly what we need we are goosed with the current debt so a bit more makes no difference. Sadly we have an administrative team unwilling or incapable of doing so and all of the noises coming from the club are that FFP is a shield to deflect responsibility very nicely from themselves.

Suits GB just fine does this excuse. Sits well with the press too. In a tight space for recruitment we need a chap with real contacts . Loanees are the way to get promoted but has Gaz got any mates in the upper echelons of the game????

[Stuart]

From what I have read that is the reason why Warburton is getting the push at Brentford. They want to go down the continental route of having others assemble the squad, from what I've read they seem to want to follow a "Moneyball" philosophy and then hire a coach to get the best out of them. Southampton do something similar. It would, at least, prevent the continuous turnover of players every time the manager changes.

Do you think that's a good or bad philosophy?

[chaddyrovers]

From what I have read that is the reason why Warburton is getting the push at Brentford. They want to go down the continental route of having others assemble the squad, from what I've read they seem to want to follow a "Moneyball" philosophy and then hire a coach to get the best out of them. Southampton do something similar. It would, at least, prevent the continuous turnover of players every time the manager changes.

I've read Brentford want the Rayo Vallecano's head coach Pace Jemez as new head coach.

Southampton have a director of Football in Les Reed with Ross Wilson as the head or Scouting and Recruitment with Koeman as manager.

Stuart, the philosophy is down to whether you have the right people in the roles and trust each other.

Stuart, would you like to see Rovers have this Director of football/head coach structure in place?

[Stuart]

Stuart, the philosophy is down to whether you have the right people in the roles and trust each other.

Stuart, would you like to see Rovers have this Director of football/head coach structure in place?

My first question was to Parson.

Your second point is interesting. I would be happy to see Bowyer in the backroom role, with an established manager doing the managing. The role of Director of Football seems to have changed over the years, from someone the manager reports to, to someone who reports to the manager and looks after the internal football levels under the direction of the manager. This is what I believe we need. Although an experienced manager with his own team and ideas would be just as good.

[RevidgeBlue]

Do you think that's a good or bad philosophy?

Not directed to me Stu but I think it's a terrible philosophy. The guy who used to be Director of Football at Spurs and Liverpool Damien Comolli (?) Used to work to a system like that I think having heard him interviewed and I would rate him as an absolute clown who would 't know a decent player if they tripped over him.

[Blue blood]

More sense talked on this page then there is down at Brockhall. Says it all really...

That we've got big dilemmas over the goalkeeper position through having too many - and that's ignoring Kean and Robbo - is a farce. That we are under FFP and just bleating on about it, whilst the likes of Bolton and Boro totally avoid it with equally unsustainable debts shows that we've no get go or impetus anywhere in our management structure, that we've 86 midfielders and can't get 4 or 5 playing together is embarrassing. Honestly, no way GB and his spin doctors can promote anything being decent much less a success at Ewood these days.

Btw EiT, Parson, Stuart and others make some excellent posts - wish the quality managing us would be somewhere near as informed and strategic.

[chaddyrovers]

I think yesterday showed that Eastwood is definitely not good enough to be the number one. Raya is young and will make mistakes, but surely he has to be the future for the club. What we don't want is another Given situation, where we allow a good, young keeper to leave because he's becomes frustrated by lack of opportunities. Personally, I'd let Raya and Steele fight it out for the number one berth with Eastwood as cover.

I think Eastwood is a decent keeper but for me, I would let him go and let Raya and Steele fight it out for the number 1 shirt here

[RevidgeBlue]

We put Paul Bradshaw in young and he did well, going on to play in the top flight for several years.

FFP is a burden but mostly if we keep trying to do what we were doing before it was imposed. It's time for bold moves: mine would be to make Raya number one and bin one of Eastwood and Steele and to make King joint first choice striker hopefully with Rhodes. I would also put two of the young midfielders in as starters, getting rid of half a dozen of the substandard ones we have got, and move heaven and earth to get a couple of loanees from the Prem..

Excellent post. Completely agree about Raya, and the youngsters as a whole. Not sure King will ever perform consistently enough, however as far as the midfield and defence are concerned we need to rip up the form book and start again as the current incumbents clearly aren't taking us anywhere.

[RevidgeBlue]

I think yesterday showed that Eastwood is definitely not good enough to be the number one. Raya is young and will make mistakes, but surely he has to be the future for the club. What we don't want is another Given situation, where we allow a good, young keeper to leave because he's becomes frustrated by lack of opportunities. Personally, I'd let Raya and Steele fight it out for the number one berth with Eastwood as cover.

Another excellent post. I wouldn't be too bothered which one of Steele and Eastwood were binned off, the only difference I would make is that in our current situation we can't afford to carry 3 top line keepers. If Raya turns out to be the real thing him, one of Steele or Eastwood and another up and coming young keeper is more than adequate imo.

[Mercer]

Too many residing in the Ewood / Brockhall comfort zone.

Bottom line, IMV, is that Bowyer should be drummed out of Ewood.

We owe him nothing - he initially steadied the ship for which he has been handsomely paid. Now we are moving backwards.

He has not got the drive, personality or technical ability to move our club forward.

As an individual, I find him colourless and uninspiring and our whole football structure reflects this including performances.

[Al]

I think Eastwood is a decent keeper but for me, I would let him go and let Raya and Steele fight it out for the number 1 shirt here

And I would let Steele go and let Raya and Eastwood fight it out. You have a habit of being wrong about goalkeepers Chaddy. In my opinion of course.