Academy & U21s

[Sparks Rover]

7 minutes ago, rigger said:

So do you think 4 games or so, in the northern premier league is going to change him. Personally I'd have given him a chance today.

Big step up to championship from 23s.  Its not like we are struggling for goals, its the other end as usual.

[rigger]

14 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

Big step up to championship from 23s.  Its not like we are struggling for goals, its the other end as usual.

Is it not a big step up from the Northern premier league to the championship. I still cannot understand loaning him out for a month. At least give him a chance to see if he is good enough at championship level. But no Mowbray plays Gally who he said was injured, and has Diaz on the bench who again Mowbray said was probably not up to playing today. We will lose in Burns, someone who could be a top class player

Edited October 16, 2021 by rigger

[bluebruce]

U23s tonked 3-0 by Manure (again, though this time in the league without as much experience in the Manure side).

They are sat bottom third. For me, it's time Butterworth gets a game in the u23s again. TM clearly isn't going to use him much if at all - didn't get on again at the weekend despite SG and TD having barely trained, BBD having been rushed back and playing two days earlier abroad, Khadra being injured and Poveda having been shite so far. TM's comments suggested Butterworth was the only attacker who had consistently trained this week but he didn't even come off the bench. Khadra will be back shortly and DB will slip further down the pecking order.

When he has come on this season he has looked exciting, but also flagged after not very long. I think he should play at least a game in the u23s firstly to build his match fitness, secondly so he can hopefully notch some goals to rebuild what I assume might be fading confidence, and thirdly because the u23s are frankly struggling and we don't want to risk dropping out of the top youth flight. Now that Burns has gone on loan they'll need the help more.

[rigger]

On 16/10/2021 at 22:55, Sparks Rover said:

That's irrelevant,  he might need it.  23s is a bit sanitised, that northern premier gets tasty so he might benefit 

Have you seen him play. The one thing I am sure of is that he can handle himself among tastier players than the Northern Premier League. Why would you want to drop to a lower level. The U23s it technically far superior to the Northern prem.

[Sparks Rover]

2 hours ago, rigger said:

Have you seen him play. The one thing I am sure of is that he can handle himself among tastier players than the Northern Premier League. Why would you want to drop to a lower level. The U23s it technically far superior to the Northern prem.

I agree with that it's technically inferior, they want to give him some proper football where the 3 points means a mortgage to some players....etc...etc...etc..Real life make him realise how lucky he is etc.

A friend of mine did exactly the same and went on loan from Sheff Utd as a teenager to Bradford Park Ave.   He's now an established championship midfielder. Did him good.

He will be fine, no rush he's only 19, a few games against men will do him good, or just sat on the bench on a Saturday afternoon will do him no good.

[rigger]

1 hour ago, Sparks Rover said:

I agree with that it's technically inferior, they want to give him some proper football where the 3 points means a mortgage to some players....etc...etc...etc..Real life make him realise how lucky he is etc.

A friend of mine did exactly the same a.nd went on loan from Sheff Utd as a teenager to Bradford Park Ave.   He's now an established championship midfielder. Did him good.

He will be fine, no rush he's only 19, a few games against men will do him good, or just sat on the bench on a Saturday afternoon will do him no good.

I understand your point of view, but as a Rovers fan, I want him playing for us and proving if he is good enough, here and now. If he isn't good enough, that is the time to loan him out, with a view to get rid. As it goes, I think he will be good for the Rovers, At least until he loses his speed and aggression   

Edited October 18, 2021 by rigger

[bluebruce]

I think the bigger question with Burns is why the Northern Premier? Outside of the window he could still go a level higher than that.

We either haven't been able to sort him a deal a level higher, which reflects badly on us, or no clubs in that league want him, which suggests he hasn't impressed enough yet (which would seem a bit odd since his goal record in the top u23 league has been fantastic this season).

[Sparks Rover]

1 hour ago, bluebruce said:

I think the bigger question with Burns is why the Northern Premier? Outside of the window he could still go a level higher than that.

We either haven't been able to sort him a deal a level higher, which reflects badly on us, or no clubs in that league want him, which suggests he hasn't impressed enough yet (which would seem a bit odd since his goal record in the top u23 league has been fantastic this season).

Is it much different to the nobbers sending their lads to Brig, Fylde, Radcliffe, Cork....?  Good young player like Josh Earl spent half a dozen games at Lancaster a few seasons back, he's now a first choice left back and will probably step up too.  

[rigger]

6 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

Is it much different to the nobbers sending their lads to Brig, Fylde, Radcliffe, Cork....?  Good young player like Josh Earl spent half a dozen games at Lancaster a few seasons back, he's now a first choice left back and will probably step up too.  

I must admit I don't give a toss what other teams do. Perhaps at the time those players had to prove they were even worth bothering about. I Think Burns already has.

Edited October 18, 2021 by rigger

[Bigdoggsteel]

2 hours ago, bluebruce said:

I think the bigger question with Burns is why the Northern Premier? Outside of the window he could still go a level higher than that.

We either haven't been able to sort him a deal a level higher, which reflects badly on us, or no clubs in that league want him, which suggests he hasn't impressed enough yet (which would seem a bit odd since his goal record in the top u23 league has been fantastic this season).

To be fair we can't force teams higher up the league to take him! His ability and profile dictates where he ends up. If he's good ,he should rip it up there 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Bigdoggsteel

[Sparks Rover]

1 hour ago, rigger said:

I must admit I don't give a toss what other teams do. Perhaps at the time those players had to prove they were even worth bothering about. I Think Burns already has.

In your opinion....obviously anyone that matters disagrees with you.

The example I give in Earl is streets ahead of Burns and was at the same age.  Burns will do well to be a regular championship player within 2 years.  In fact, I'd wager he will be more northern premier.

[rigger]

37 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

In your opinion....obviously anyone that matters disagrees with you.

The example I give in Earl is streets ahead of Burns and was at the same age.  Burns will do well to be a regular championship player within 2 years.  In fact, I'd wager he will be more northern premier.

The only opinion that matters is Mowbrays. Hopefully it won't matter for too much longer. If you want a wager, I suggest going to a bookies.

[bluebruce]

8 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

Is it much different to the nobbers sending their lads to Brig, Fylde, Radcliffe, Cork....?  Good young player like Josh Earl spent half a dozen games at Lancaster a few seasons back, he's now a first choice left back and will probably step up too.  

Personally I think it's different, yeh. Preston's youth players (which only goes up to u18 anyway?) aren't being showcased at as high a level. A player with the goals record Burns has this season in the top flight of the top u23s league for a team who aren't even performing that strongly in it this year should really be attracting the attention of teams at conference or even League Two level, typically. Any Manure, Chelski or City player with that record this season wouldn't have to drop to the Northern Premier I'm certain.

8 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

To be fair we can't force teams higher up the league to take him! His ability and profile dictates where he ends up. If he's good ,he should rip it up there 

Of course we can't force it, but we can circulate his name around teams. With the shambolic way we are ran these days, would anybody be surprised if we did no such thing and simply took the first offer that came along?

Of course there are other factors, like how local the teams are, whether clubs have already sorted their forward options for the year etc. It could just come down to them not rating him if we have circulated his name, but that possibility worries me. I can only conclude Rigger is miles off in thinking he is our best attacker right now...I mean, I thought that anyway, but this weak loan move makes me wonder if the gap between his opinion and that of professionals (or semi pros in this case I guess) is wider than I thought.

[Sparks Rover]

6 hours ago, bluebruce said:

Personally I think it's different, yeh. Preston's youth players (which only goes up to u18 anyway?)

Not true.  They play in the central league.  It's exactly the same as they are a mid table championship club too

Nobbers have a centre forward, he turned 19 yesterday and has been to Brig on loan.  He scored his first senior first team goal a few weeks ago and is in and around the 1st team.  Burns is miles away by the looks of it.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Sparks Rover

[rigger]

9 hours ago, bluebruce said:

Personally I think it's different, yeh. Preston's youth players (which only goes up to u18 anyway?) aren't being showcased at as high a level. A player with the goals record Burns has this season in the top flight of the top u23s league for a team who aren't even performing that strongly in it this year should really be attracting the attention of teams at conference or even League Two level, typically. Any Manure, Chelski or City player with that record this season wouldn't have to drop to the Northern Premier I'm certain.

Of course we can't force it, but we can circulate his name around teams. With the shambolic way we are ran these days, would anybody be surprised if we did no such thing and simply took the first offer that came along?

Of course there are other factors, like how local the teams are, whether clubs have already sorted their forward options for the year etc. It could just come down to them not rating him if we have circulated his name, but that possibility worries me. I can only conclude Rigger is miles off in thinking he is our best attacker right now...I mean, I thought that anyway, but this weak loan move makes me wonder if the gap between his opinion and that of professionals (or semi pros in this case I guess) is wider than I thought.

I think we should play two up front, swapping as required between partnerships of, Diaz and Butterworth, or Gallagher and Burns. With two wingers, two central midfielders and a back four. It may not work against elite teams, but we don't play against elite teams.

[riverholmes]

Re. Sam Burns joining FC United on a one-month loan.

I can't think of much evidence of Rovers youth players benefiting from short-term non-league loan deals. The short-term nature of it means that it's hard for players to establish themselves and learn and the lower standard and different style may make it that much harder to adapt quickly. 

To my mind, a longer-term loan makes sense and, if not, they should be kept in the U23s with a view to loaning out elsewhere when the window opens. Sam Burns is one of our better U23 players and, I would suggested, his decision to take this loan suggests impatience and frustration with the opportunities at Rovers. Whilst I don't know if he's good enough, I can't blame him if you consider the opportunities given to, last season, Bennett, Evans, Downing et al. and, this season, Poveda and so on.

Whilst they haven't performed so well this season, my big concern are for players like Garrett, Whitehall, Cirino, Barnes and McBride. They look, to me, technically, the best young players, reaching the age where they need the next step, and with promise, which I hope the club encourage, rather than discourage.

Edited October 19, 2021 by riverholmes

[bluebruce]

3 hours ago, riverholmes said:

Re. Sam Burns joining FC United on a one-month loan.

I can't think of much evidence of Rovers youth players benefiting from short-term non-league loan deals. The short-term nature of it means that it's hard for players to establish themselves and learn and the lower standard and different style may make it that much harder to adapt quickly. 

To my mind, a longer-term loan makes sense and, if not, they should be kept in the U23s with a view to loaning out elsewhere when the window opens. Sam Burns is one of our better U23 players and, I would suggested, his decision to take this loan suggests impatience and frustration with the opportunities at Rovers. Whilst I don't know if he's good enough, I can't blame him if you consider the opportunities given to, last season, Bennett, Evans, Downing et al. and, this season, Poveda and so on.

Whilst they haven't performed so well this season, my big concern are for players like Garrett, Whitehall, Cirino, Barnes and McBride. They look, to me, technically, the best young players, reaching the age where they need the next step, and with promise, which I hope the club encourage, rather than discourage.

Raya did it at Southport in the conference. That was half a season though not a month.

Generally though I agree, non-league loans tend to worry me a bit as most of the time the player is pretty much never heard of again in any meaningful capacity. There is always a possibility of struggling to adjust to a club and a league in a short loan, especially for a young player either travelling or moving temporarily to another town, and if a player doesn't set the Northern Premier alight, then clubs in League Two who might have been keeping tabs are likely to switch off from them. I think it lowers their profile tbh.

To be clear, I'm not saying it can't do a player good, I know there are examples where it has. Mostly at other clubs...

Edited October 19, 2021 by bluebruce

[only2garners]

A tweet from FC United suggests Sam has gone on an initial month’s loan.

[bluebruce]

7 hours ago, rigger said:

I think we should play two up front, swapping as required between partnerships of, Diaz and Butterworth, or Gallagher and Burns. With two wingers, two central midfielders and a back four. It may not work against elite teams, but we don't play against elite teams.

I'm actually flabbergasted that Diaz and Butterworth up front in a two does appear to be the plan tonight. It's weird how this manager had stopped even bringing him off the bench then suddenly starts him. Shame there is zero creativity in that midfield behind them, so if Butterworth ends up having no service it will be easy to justify dropping him again...I doubt TM would do something so cynical, but it's odd and I can see it ending that way whether intentionally or not.

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, bluebruce said:

I'm actually flabbergasted that Diaz and Butterworth up front in a two does appear to be the plan tonight. It's weird how this manager had stopped even bringing him off the bench then suddenly starts him. Shame there is zero creativity in that midfield behind them, so if Butterworth ends up having no service it will be easy to justify dropping him again...I doubt TM would do something so cynical, but it's odd and I can see it ending that way whether intentionally or not.

It's up to Butterworth himself really. He had one chance and he missed, albeit it was offside. I like him and this is his chance 

[JacknOry]

Butterworth seems to only last 30 minutes and he is out on his ass - needs some serious fitness work before being asked to start games. 

Tbh, wouldn't surprise me if TM threw him in as people on here had been asking where Butterworth had been. Like sticking up some fingers to show he is right.

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by JacknOry

[RoversClitheroe]

18 minutes ago, JacknOry said:

Butterworth seems to only last 30 minutes and he is out on his ass - needs some serious fitness work before being asked to start games. 

Tbh, wouldn't surprise me if TM threw him in as people on here had been asking where Butterworth had been. Like sticking up some fingers to show he is right.

 

Yeah don't really get it, think he has kinda thrown him under the bus, I thought he was good but asked to do a ridiculous job.

He's not had any minutes for any of the teams and then expected to start.

[roversfan99]

I definitely think there is an element of confirmation bias towards Butterworth in that not only is he not a loan like Clarkson, but his lack of inclusion lately has been an easy stick to use against the manager. There have been desperate calls for him to start, when he does he is considered to be thrown under the bus.

He looked lost last night, too slow on the ball and his lack of stamina is a major concern, he was as poor as Clarkson IMO. Both have barely played but one is prime target for criticism and one has been "thrown under the bus." We wasn't good, he was poor.

[islander200]

6 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I definitely think there is an element of confirmation bias towards Butterworth in that not only is he not a loan like Clarkson, but his lack of inclusion lately has been an easy stick to use against the manager. There have been desperate calls for him to start, when he does he is considered to be thrown under the bus.

He looked lost last night, too slow on the ball and his lack of stamina is a major concern, he was as poor as Clarkson IMO. Both have barely played but one is prime target for criticism and one has been "thrown under the bus." We wasn't good, he was poor.

Do you think Butterworth played well when he came on against Huddersfield?I think most who watched that would say he did play well in that match.

Since that game he has hardly seen any minutes.If he was under consideration to start last night then surely he should have been given some minutes in the previous match against Coventry, rather than Poveda coming on.

Mowbray does deserve criticism for the way he is handling the players, absolutely no doubt about it

[roversfan99]

2 minutes ago, islander200 said:

Do you think Butterworth played well when he came on against Huddersfield?I think most who watched that would say he did play well in that match.

Since that game he has hardly seen any minutes.If he was under consideration to start last night then surely he should have been given some minutes in the previous match against Coventry, rather than Poveda coming on.

Mowbray does deserve criticism for the way he is handling the players, absolutely no doubt about it

The Hull game at home? He had an impact although I personally felt that Khadra was far more influential, and that Butterworth tired about 20 minutes after coming on.

I just feel that in this case, Butterworth and Clarkson's performances are getting totally different responses based on previously held reputations when both were as bad and as lightweight as each other. Clarkson is one of the loanees, he is from Liverpool so there is an assumed favour towards them, whereas Butterworth is our own player, people have been calling for him to play as more as a common criticism to use against the manager, so when both perform poorly, one gets the brunt of the abuse and the other gets excuses and further defence.