Academy & U21s

[Andy]

1 hour ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Any update on the scholars? Is Finneran there?

I have a friend who was there (for younger age groups), but not had confirmation either way.

Heard the club made a big fuss about Finneran's scholar group/intake during the evening, but not sure what the outcome was for Finneran.

[Upside Down]

9 hours ago, bluebruce said:

Conversely, he may also have done himself out of many, many millions more, and far greater professional satisfaction, by having the career he appeared destined for. Could have sorted his whole family for generations. Instead he went to the player graveyard of Spurs and what's happens now is anyone's guess.

I think he's made a very premature decision to go there. He'd have probably been in the first 11 here by now if he'd have stayed and having a solid season or two under his belt would have seen him in line for actual big money moves.

No doubt his agent would have been one of the driving forces behind this move, in his ear about how rosy and green it will be at the biggest small time club in the world. I'm sure he'll have picked up a nice fat commission on that deal that he wouldn't have got had Phillips stayed at Rovers.

Anyway fuck him, spurs are a shit club.

[roversfan99]

He was 5th choice the season that he left, and 3 of the 4 centre backs he was behind were here last season so im not sure he would have played much. He was a regular on loan at Plymouth so Spurs did well to get him a good loan at Championship level.

[bluebruce]

55 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

He was 5th choice the season that he left, and 3 of the 4 centre backs he was behind were here last season so im not sure he would have played much. He was a regular on loan at Plymouth so Spurs did well to get him a good loan at Championship level.

They've been injured and unavailable at times. We wouldn't have needed to sign McFadz. He would have played, and if he was as good as he and everyone thinks, he would have developed over the season and forced his way into the team.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

8 hours ago, bluebruce said:

They've been injured and unavailable at times. We wouldn't have needed to sign McFadz. He would have played, and if he was as good as he and everyone thinks, he would have developed over the season and forced his way into the team.

He would have got sufficient game time here last season I think.

[Exiled_Rover]

10 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

He would have got sufficient game time here last season I think.

He'd be in a significantly stronger negotiating position this summer if he'd stayed (again assuming he's as good as they think he is - I've barely seen him play football) because Hyam, Carter and S. Wharton all had significant time on the sidelines with injuries last season.

He'd have played a lot - if he was the player they think he is he'd have kept his place too.

[rigger]

22 hours ago, FourFourTwo said:

From a playing perspective perhaps but from a financial stand point the lad has received a life changing amount of money, if his career was to end tomorrow he'd probably be sorted for the rest of his life. I'm not sure you can begrudge a young lad that kind of move. 

I have never said Phillips was wrong to leave the Rovers. I am saying he was wrong to go to Spurs.

[RoversClitheroe]

28 minutes ago, rigger said:

I have never said Phillips was wrong to leave the Rovers. I am saying he was wrong to go to Spurs.

I might be in the minority but I didn't rate Phillips as highly as some.

[sparky12]

12 minutes ago, RoversClitheroe said:

I might be in the minority but I didn't rate Phillips as highly as some.

Agreed! Wharton helps highlight this.

Although I'm sure AW getting game time here certainly helped accelerate his journey, it was obvious for all to see that he was going on to big things regardless.

Phillips rode a wave of hype reviews from the u21's and even though i don't remember him doing too much wrong in his few games, he certainly didn't set the world alight, a la Phil Jones.

 

[RoversClitheroe]

5 minutes ago, sparky12 said:

Phillips rode a wave of hype reviews from the u21's and even though i don't remember him doing too much wrong in his few games, he certainly didn't set the world alight, a la Phil Jones.

Reading away stands out to me, bullied by a very shit side, but he was 17 at the time.

[rigger]

1 hour ago, sparky12 said:

Agreed! Wharton helps highlight this.

Although I'm sure AW getting game time here certainly helped accelerate his journey, it was obvious for all to see that he was going on to big things regardless.

Phillips rode a wave of hype reviews from the u21's and even though i don't remember him doing too much wrong in his few games, he certainly didn't set the world alight, a la Phil Jones.

 

It was the U23's back then, and Phillips stood out as much as Adam Wharton did, in my opinion.

[rigger]

1 hour ago, RoversClitheroe said:

I might be in the minority but I didn't rate Phillips as highly as some.

Spurs must have rated him.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

54 minutes ago, rigger said:

It was the U23's back then, and Phillips stood out as much as Adam Wharton did, in my opinion.

Phillips looked a class act to me.

[Bethnal]

 

14 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Phillips looked a class act to me.

Same. He’s probably a good few years away from having everything at his disposal, but he’s got a lot of the natural physical attributes to suggest he will go to the top and displayed a lot of the “intangibles” at times. Obviously a kid still and being a centre back is as much  about nous as anything else.

Went too big, too quick, though. I suspect he gets another championship loan, then a lower premier league loan then moves permanently to a club “below” Spurs in the Sky Sports Pecking Order. A good career ahead for him, but feel his dickhead agent has put him on the back foot by forcing the move, as he’s likely to do again this summer with Ty Dolan.

[sparky12]

2 hours ago, rigger said:

It was the U23's back then, and Phillips stood out as much as Adam Wharton did, in my opinion.

In the academy yes, in the first team, less so.

[roversfan99]

I think quite how good Wharton is can skew perception if he is the benchmark.

That being said, I am not convinced that Phillips made a terrible choice even not factoring in the financial aspect which is obviously crucial, people say greedy as if they would turn down multiplying their wage. But he was down the pecking order behind some average Championship defenders, different story if he left as a regular but he likely wouldnt have played that much yet. Perhaps its better being at a bigger club where you arent really in first team contention as they would be committed to getting you good loans at least to play football whereas here, he was 4th/5th choice but we needed depth so couldnt afford to find him regular football.

[riverholmes]

Remember, Phillips was playing regularly for Plymouth, on loan, who were fellow relegation contenders. And he won their young player of the season award.

This is yet another advantage Prem clubs have. They can get loan moves for their young players at decent levels.

Edited May 28, 2024 by riverholmes

[bluebruce]

On 25/05/2024 at 21:05, roversfan99 said:

I think quite how good Wharton is can skew perception if he is the benchmark.

That being said, I am not convinced that Phillips made a terrible choice even not factoring in the financial aspect which is obviously crucial, people say greedy as if they would turn down multiplying their wage. But he was down the pecking order behind some average Championship defenders, different story if he left as a regular but he likely wouldnt have played that much yet. Perhaps its better being at a bigger club where you arent really in first team contention as they would be committed to getting you good loans at least to play football whereas here, he was 4th/5th choice but we needed depth so couldnt afford to find him regular football.

You only have to look at Spurs' record with youngsters going back quite some way. They hoover them up, shunt them all over the leagues, use precious few of them in the first team because they're not willing to remotely gamble, and the vast majority, including some very promising youngsters indeed, either never make it at the top level or have their careers slowed substantially. I'd say there's an argument they're the worst top flight club for integrating youngsters.

Phillips should have taken the Wharton pathway. Besides, I always say a club who has a lot of money but is trying to get you for well below your real market value doesn't really value you, they just see somebody they think they can make a profit on or provides cheap backup.

[bluebruce]

4 hours ago, riverholmes said:

Remember, Phillips was playing regularly for Plymouth, on loan, who were fellow relegation contenders. And he won their young player of the season award.

This is yet another advantage Prem clubs have. They can get loan moves for their young players at decent levels.

It crossed my mind the other day that Phillips could have theoretically ended up relegating us, which would have been an extra kick in the teeth.

Yeh I always find it unfair, not to mention irrational, that the same player can be at a Prem club he hasn't played for and instantly becomes more desirable for loans. I do wonder whether Plymouth would have been interested in loaning him from us (if we were interested in loaning him out...again I think he could have got near enough as much game time with us this season). I'd say they probably would, as they're not exactly all that and he had some experience at this level that their squad lacked, but with his age and a Championship club as the parent, I bet he'd have had to bide his time more.

A lot of the Prem loanees that go out in this league are no better than the youth players we're forced to send to League One, or Two, or even the conference.

Edited May 28, 2024 by bluebruce

[roversfan99]

3 hours ago, bluebruce said:

You only have to look at Spurs' record with youngsters going back quite some way. They hoover them up, shunt them all over the leagues, use precious few of them in the first team because they're not willing to remotely gamble, and the vast majority, including some very promising youngsters indeed, either never make it at the top level or have their careers slowed substantially. I'd say there's an argument they're the worst top flight club for integrating youngsters.

Phillips should have taken the Wharton pathway. Besides, I always say a club who has a lot of money but is trying to get you for well below your real market value doesn't really value you, they just see somebody they think they can make a profit on or provides cheap backup.

The problem with the Wharton pathway though is that Wharton was playing every week because he was so good. Phillips wasnt and had he stayed he would have still been on the fringes yet needed as cover so unavailable for loan. You can fall into that limbo of being far enough down the pecking order to rarely play yet not far enough down where it is possible to loan you out.

Purely based on this season I would consider even putting aside the financial benefits, from a career perspective that he has made a wise move. He played 18 times in a well selected loan in half a season at the same level where he played half as often for us, with the added bonus of training with Premier League players for half a season.

[bluebruce]

22 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

The problem with the Wharton pathway though is that Wharton was playing every week because he was so good. Phillips wasnt and had he stayed he would have still been on the fringes yet needed as cover so unavailable for loan. You can fall into that limbo of being far enough down the pecking order to rarely play yet not far enough down where it is possible to loan you out.

Purely based on this season I would consider even putting aside the financial benefits, from a career perspective that he has made a wise move. He played 18 times in a well selected loan in half a season at the same level where he played half as often for us, with the added bonus of training with Premier League players for half a season.

I've already covered the 'wouldn't have played much' point when I quoted you further up, and you didn't dispute it. I mean, you clearly do disagree, but you haven't articulated yet why anything I said is wrong. I won't repeat it here but if you want to quote my other post and explain why you disagree with my assessment I'm happy to discuss it.

I'm confident he'd have played more than 18 games over the season here. He wasted half a season by not playing rather than gained something by merely training with Premier League players (not sure how much of that he actually did, he was in the U21s so probably only trained with the first team on the handful of occasions he sat their bench). What you call a bonus, I call a waste. 180 minutes in the League Cup (probably would have had that here, maybe more) and 180 minutes in PL2 in 6 months is 6 wasted months IMO.

He didn't need a loan, I only mentioned it theoretically to highlight how differently young players are treated once they're attached to a big name club. Another example is despite how well Wharton was playing he didn't even get a U-21 cap here.

[Southside Rover]

I also felt Phillips moved too soon but I'm biased and hindsight is a wonderful thing.

To put a different context on it and ignoring the money...

Tottenham coaches at any level are likely to teach Phillips more than our own David Lowe!

Then he wants to pit himself against the best to improve. At the time, Kane was there, Son, Richarlison etc. Or Gallagher, Ennis, Telalovic

Then a walk around the Tottenham facilities which are 2nd to none and a move to big city life versus our decaying surroundings and all the murmurings of trouble with owners and a CEO that can't look you straight in the eye

Even Phillips will know his time would have come I'm sure but there was far more going for him by moving than staying 

[roversfan99]

37 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

I've already covered the 'wouldn't have played much' point when I quoted you further up, and you didn't dispute it. I mean, you clearly do disagree, but you haven't articulated yet why anything I said is wrong. I won't repeat it here but if you want to quote my other post and explain why you disagree with my assessment I'm happy to discuss it.

I'm confident he'd have played more than 18 games over the season here. He wasted half a season by not playing rather than gained something by merely training with Premier League players (not sure how much of that he actually did, he was in the U21s so probably only trained with the first team on the handful of occasions he sat their bench). What you call a bonus, I call a waste. 180 minutes in the League Cup (probably would have had that here, maybe more) and 180 minutes in PL2 in 6 months is 6 wasted months IMO.

He didn't need a loan, I only mentioned it theoretically to highlight how differently young players are treated once they're attached to a big name club. Another example is despite how well Wharton was playing he didn't even get a U-21 cap here.

I am not convinced he would have played over 18 games but I doubt there would have been much in it either way. He played 9 here in the League but was firmly behind Hyam, Carter and Wharton in the pecking order under Tomasson and Eustace doesnt seem as keen to use younger players so his chances may have reduced further, only playing when 2 of the 3 mentioned were out at the same time. 

It makes it feel more like wasted time because the appearances are all in one half of a season but had he played 18 more staggered across the season here, it wouldnt have been seen as a waste. But training with and being coached by a much higher standard of players and staff would surely be of benefit even when not playing considering he didnt get a sniff here for prolonged periods when others were fit. 

Im not sure long term it will be the best move but I dont think its as straightforward as with Wharton whereby he was that good (and a bit older) where he was guaranteed first team football here.

[RoversClitheroe]

Did Finneran renew or did he not?

[jim mk2]

With all the problems we’ve had in defence it’s not wrong to say Phillips could have played 35 or more games for Rovers  this season had he stayed and could even have been a first team fixture. I always thought Tottenham was the wrong club for him and he would have been better at a second tier PL club. I think it’s highly unlikely Spurs will give him a proper first team chance never mind a regular place