Academy & U21s

[Guest]

23 hours ago, philipl said:

Lost 2-1 at Chelsea which is no disgrace.

No Jack Vale either, Butterworth's goal another brilliant one.

[bluebruce]

I thought Mowbray's comments on the Academy in the LT today would have sparked a little discussion here.

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/quicktest/18016302.mowbray-happy-productivity-rovers-academy/

[Stuart]

Just now, bluebruce said:

I thought Mowbray's comments on the Academy in the LT today would have sparked a little discussion here.

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/quicktest/18016302.mowbray-happy-productivity-rovers-academy/

Seems to be taking a bit too much credit for Nyambe despite, not being the one to bring him in and dropping him for a centre midfielder until the was a worse problem at left back.

Apart from that it’s the usual meaningless waffle which he won’t back up with actions.

[bluebruce]

Just now, Stuart said:

Seems to be taking a bit too much credit for Nyambe despite, not being the one to bring him in and dropping him for a centre midfielder until the was a worse problem at left back.

Apart from that it’s the usual meaningless waffle which he won’t back up with actions.

Yeh, I more took an interest in the parts where he seemed to be musing over whether it should be used to sell players off, whilst suggesting they won't be ready to impact us at first team level for ages.

It could just be my reading between the lines, but I worry he means we will bring them through, give them a few games then look to sell them on. Which would mean selling prospects too cheap most likely. Or he could be planning to sell the likes of Travis and Nyambe and replace with other kids coming through. Don't think that would be any better. There certainly doesn't seem to be room in the squad for all these prospects to break through simultaneously under TM's current approach. Someone, somewhere is going to be a casualty of all this. Probably a few.

[Stuart]

Just now, bluebruce said:

Yeh, I more took an interest in the parts where he seemed to be musing over whether it should be used to sell players off, whilst suggesting they won't be ready to impact us at first team level for ages.

It could just be my reading between the lines, but I worry he means we will bring them through, give them a few games then look to sell them on. Which would mean selling prospects too cheap most likely. Or he could be planning to sell the likes of Travis and Nyambe and replace with other kids coming through. Don't think that would be any better. There certainly doesn't seem to be room in the squad for all these prospects to break through simultaneously under TM's current approach. Someone, somewhere is going to be a casualty of all this. Probably a few.

I think it’s inevitable. Mowbray is no Souness, he won’t give our exciting young players a chance unless:

a. they are defensively minded 

b. or they have it knocked out of them

The only player we seem to have made an money out of from the youth side during Mowbray’s time is the much maligned Nuttall. (I’m not counting Raya as he was an established first teamer and not one of Mowbray’s).

If he isn’t going to play them then he is going to have to get some value out of them.

Personally I’d keep Butterworth, Vale and JRC and sell Mowbray. Wonder if there would be any buyers?

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Stuart said:

If he isn’t going to play them then he is going to have to get some value out of them.

Personally I’d keep Butterworth, Vale and JRC and sell Mowbray. Wonder if there would be any buyers?

It's so dumb. Look at other Cat One Academies like Chelsea. I watched Callum Hudson-Odoi just a little over a year ago play at Leyland against Blackburn Rovers Under 23's. He was rank average. 6-9 months later he's in the England mens set up having played countless games for Chelsea. 

Harry Chapman (whom I'm not even the biggest fan of) is better than he was in that Under 23's game. 

I think it's just proof that we aren't handing out enough chances. The only difference between Jack Vale and a first teamer like Joe Rothwell is experience. There's only one way to give that experience out and that's with chances in the first time.

TM stumbled upon Travis because he had no other option, he hasn't pulled the trigger on Buckley, Butterworth or JRC - sold off David Raya and refuses to play Ryan Nyambe often. He's probably the worst manager I've known for youth players in some time.

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, JoeH said:

It's so dumb. Look at other Cat One Academies like Chelsea. I watched Callum Hudson-Odoi just a little over a year ago play at Leyland against Blackburn Rovers Under 23's. He was rank average. 6-9 months later he's in the England mens set up having played countless games for Chelsea. 

Harry Chapman (whom I'm not even the biggest fan of) is better than he was in that Under 23's game. 

I think it's just proof that we aren't handing out enough chances. The only difference between Jack Vale and a first teamer like Joe Rothwell is experience. There's only one way to give that experience out and that's with chances in the first time.

TM stumbled upon Travis because he had no other option, he hasn't pulled the trigger on Buckley, Butterworth or JRC - sold off David Raya and refuses to play Ryan Nyambe often. He's probably the worst manager I've known for youth players in some time.

Its a little presumptious to suggest that all a young player lacks is experience over a senior player, you look at Travis who took to first team football like a duck to water, Buckley in comparison has looked a little boy lost. Magloire last season was likewise. I think Hudson Odoi was regularly impressing at that level, one game isnt a fair gauge really. I think there is potential for Mowbray to try a few more, Chapman and Rankin Costello for example, I do agree, but there is a huge gap between kids and mens football.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Its a little presumptious to suggest that all a young player lacks is experience over a senior player, you look at Travis who took to first team football like a duck to water, Buckley in comparison has looked a little boy lost. Magloire last season was likewise. I think Hudson Odoi was regularly impressing at that level, one game isnt a fair gauge really. I think there is potential for Mowbray to try a few more, Chapman and Rankin Costello for example, I do agree, but there is a huge gap between kids and mens football.

I think most players at 18 lack experience and mental ability. Players don't get significantly better with the ball at their feet, they learn little things from experience, like backing into the defenders and when to make runs and when to hold your position. Players can't gain those mental skills without chances.

There is a huge gap, but that gap only closes with chances. I think many Cat One Academy players who've made it at other clubs have proven that.

[BlackburnEnd75]

I’m not holding out any hope of any of these coming through this season. Not because I don’t rate them I just don’t see where they fit into our squad.

We could give them a go but TM is unlikely to open himself up to criticism by for example leaving out Brereton to play Butterworth, as he’s paid a high transfer fee for him and in a lot cases this year wages. It must be hard for him to justify it.

When Raya, Nyambe and Travis came through you could see the pathway for them as they were say one of 2 players in their respective positions but Butterworth for example as second striker or a 10 has about 4 or 5 players in front of him.

weve got Chapman, Davenport, Buckley, Rankin-Costello, Butterworth who all need game time in the football league. 

[roversfan99]

2 hours ago, JoeH said:

I think most players at 18 lack experience and mental ability. Players don't get significantly better with the ball at their feet, they learn little things from experience, like backing into the defenders and when to make runs and when to hold your position. Players can't gain those mental skills without chances.

There is a huge gap, but that gap only closes with chances. I think many Cat One Academy players who've made it at other clubs have proven that.

It was the quote that "the only difference between Jack Vale and a first teamer like Joe Rothwell is experience" which seemed a bit of a stretch.

I dont doubt that Mowbray is perhaps over cautious with our youngsters, but the one thing I do think we need to look at is our use of the loan system. Buckley is the perfect candidate, when he features he looks lost IMO, he needs a loan spell in League 1 or 2, get kicked out a bit, learn through mistakes when to pass the ball and when to hold on to it. Our recent history of loans spells has been pretty poor, Wharton is a good example, you look at Fisher who I dont think has played a League game, I get that it can be very difficult to loan a player to a club in terms of guaranteeing game time, and there being a balance between getting them game time at as high a level as possible and getting them regular games, but we need to get better loans for our youngsters.

Callum Hudson-Odoi is as good a youngster as you will find, and a special talent, whether he underwhelmed in one game or not.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

It was the quote that "the only difference between Jack Vale and a first teamer like Joe Rothwell is experience" which seemed a bit of a stretch.

Name me the difference. I bet Jack Vale is quicker over 100m, I'm sure neither are any better at putting the ball in the net, I'm sure neither are particularly better than the other at beating their man. But Joe Rothwell will undoubtedly have a better eye, a bette mental capability, more experience on the football field. Knowing when to go and when to hold, knowing what being 2-1 down feels like at Ewood Park, how to react and how to boost the team from the bench. 

Someone like Jack Vale can only get that experience from playing football.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

Callum Hudson-Odoi is as good a youngster as you will find, and a special talent, whether he underwhelmed in one game or not.

I disagree, there's been many youngsters more impressive that don't make it. Ability isn't the driving factor as to whether a young 18 year old makes it, it's all about chances, luck, game time and timing in general. Scott Wharton is better than Tyler Magloire, but Tyler Magloire got a chance last season against Wigan and Scott Wharton didn't, purely because of timing. 

Hudson-Odoi was given a shot, Josh McEachran wasn't. Both players had been lauded with praise in their academy days, one player was given that chance, the other wasn't. And now one plays for England and the other is at Birmingham...

Edited November 7, 2019 by JoeH

[Guest]

Last comment on this matter, and if you don't care for my opinion on it, firstly I apologise for taking up a lot of replies on this thread, and secondly save yourself by not reading this .

People massively over estimate the differences between footballers. The thing making Lionel Messi better than Sadio Mane isn't as massive as its portrayed by the media. Life isn't FIFA. It's tiny, tiny margins. Dan Butterworth won't get physically any better at shooting, or running than he is now... he can only grow mentally after he's reached his physical peaks. There's so many examples of that its unavoidable. Players that make the first team at a very early age are very often technically better than the first team player above them, but don't have that mental side to their game that the first team player may have. You can talk about youth football being different to mens, but at the end of the day when Butterworth is rifling in unstoppable volleys and overhead kicks in the PL2, that's not something that's limited to playing against players your own age.

Who would you rather have faced as a defender in 2017, Connor Mahoney or Liam Feeney? Mahoney had much better skill on the ball than Feeney, but the latter had been playing mens football for a decade and the former was in his debut season. Mahoney now, with two years of regular football, is twice the player Feeney is - and it's not because all of a sudden he can kick a ball better than he could before, it's purely about experience, and a mental growth.

Why is Danny Graham better than Sam Gallagher is or better than Joe Nuttall was? DG knows the game. He backs into the defender, reads the game, saves his energy, makes the right runs, knows when to stay put and be a wall for Bradley Dack. It's the same with every single position on the pitch. Joe Hilton, he's not going to get massively better at shot stopping than he is right now at 20 years old, but he will learn when to come for the ball and when to leave it for his defender - BUT only with experience. 

So no, I'm not saying drop Adam Armstrong and play Jack Vale ahead of him, not at all. I'm saying maybe let's give our younger players better chances than we are doing, even just a little. TM refuses to play Ryan Nyambe consistently, near-on forced David Raya out of the club, stumbled across Lewis Travis when there was injuries and he had no other options, hasn't given Buckley any true kind of starting chances, hasn't given Dan Butterworth more than 10 minutes vs Bolton etc etc etc... It needs to be better. This is a Category One Academy and it's not producing the way it should because we're not allowing our players to develop as men.

Edited November 7, 2019 by JoeH
Many many spelling mistakes as per usual lol!

[chaddyrovers]

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by chaddyrovers

[Amo]

9 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

Dread to think if he hated him!

[Stuart]

2 hours ago, JoeH said:

Last comment on this matter, and if you don't care for my opinion on it, firstly I apologise for taking up a lot of replies on this thread, and secondly save yourself by not reading this .

People massively over estimate the differences between footballers. The thing making Lionel Messi better than Sadio Mane isn't as massive as its portrayed by the media. Life isn't FIFA. It's tiny, tiny margins. Dan Butterworth won't get physically any better at shooting, or running than he is now... he can only grow mentally after he's reached his physical peaks. There's so many examples of that its unavoidable. Players that make the first team at a very early age are very often technically better than the first team player above them, but don't have that mental side to their game that the first team player may have. You can talk about youth football being different to mens, but at the end of the day when Butterworth is rifling in unstoppable volleys and overhead kicks in the PL2, that's not something that's limited to playing against players your own age.

Who would you rather have faced as a defender in 2017, Connor Mahoney or Liam Feeney? Mahoney had much better skill on the ball than Feeney, but the latter had been playing mens football for a decade and the former was in his debut season. Mahoney now, with two years of regular football, is twice the player Feeney is - and it's not because all of a sudden he can kick a ball better than he could before, it's purely about experience, and a mental growth.

Why is Danny Graham better than Sam Gallagher is or better than Joe Nuttall was? DG knows the game. He backs into the defender, reads the game, saves his energy, makes the right runs, knows when to stay put and be a wall for Bradley Dack. It's the same with every single position on the pitch. Joe Hilton, he's not going to get massively better at shot stopping than he is right now at 20 years old, but he will learn when to come for the ball and when to leave it for his defender - BUT only with experience. 

So no, I'm not saying drop Adam Armstrong and play Jack Vale ahead of him, not at all. I'm saying maybe let's give our younger players better chances than we are doing, even just a little. TM refuses to play Ryan Nyambe consistently, near-on forced David Raya out of the club, stumbled across Lewis Travis when there was injuries and he had no other options, hasn't given Buckley any true kind of starting chances, hasn't given Dan Butterworth more than 10 minutes vs Bolton etc etc etc... It needs to be better. This is a Category One Academy and it's not producing the way it should because we're not allowing our players to develop as men.

Excellent post.

[roversfan99]

2 hours ago, JoeH said:

I disagree, there's been many youngsters more impressive that don't make it. Ability isn't the driving factor as to whether a young 18 year old makes it, it's all about chances, luck, game time and timing in general. Scott Wharton is better than Tyler Magloire, but Tyler Magloire got a chance last season against Wigan and Scott Wharton didn't, purely because of timing. 

Hudson-Odoi was given a shot, Josh McEachran wasn't. Both players had been lauded with praise in their academy days, one player was given that chance, the other wasn't. And now one plays for England and the other is at Birmingham...

Thats a little simplistic though, your comments imply that Hudson Odoi and McEachran are of the same (or were) ability, as if McEachran would have had exactly the same impact had they got the same chance.

Agree that a lot of it is down to luck and chances, but you look at your comments below, that experience that Graham has, knowledge of the game is exactly why IMO it is impossible to justify playing any of the younger but far inferior strikers in his place. Not all players develop that game intelligence at the same pace, or even at all.

2 hours ago, JoeH said:

the latter had been playing mens football for a decade and the former was in his debut season. Mahoney now, with two years of regular football, is twice the player Feeney is - and it's not because all of a sudden he can kick a ball better than he could before, it's purely about experience, and a mental growth.

Why is Danny Graham better than Sam Gallagher is or better than Joe Nuttall was? DG knows the game. He backs into the defender, reads the game, saves his energy, makes the right runs, knows when to stay put and be a wall for Bradley Dack. It's the same with every single position on the pitch. Joe Hilton, he's not going to get massively better at shot stopping than he is right now at 20 years old, but he will learn when to come for the ball and when to leave it for his defender - BUT only with experience. 

I think as a full back to be fair, you wouldnt be overly scared of either, neither are particularly good. That said, Feeney has apparently been on fire in League 1 this year, with plenty of assists. I wouldnt say Mahoney is twice the player that Feeney is at all, and Feeney as we all know is pretty poor.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

Thats a little simplistic though, your comments imply that Hudson Odoi and McEachran are of the same (or were) ability, as if McEachran would have had exactly the same impact had they got the same chance.

Agree that a lot of it is down to luck and chances, but you look at your comments below, that experience that Graham has, knowledge of the game is exactly why IMO it is impossible to justify playing any of the younger but far inferior strikers in his place. Not all players develop that game intelligence at the same pace, or even at all.

I think as a full back to be fair, you wouldnt be overly scared of either, neither are particularly good. That said, Feeney has apparently been on fire in League 1 this year, with plenty of assists. I wouldnt say Mahoney is twice the player that Feeney is at all, and Feeney as we all know is pretty poor.

I remember saying when Mahoney first came into the reckoning at Rovers that he could be the new Damien Duff or he could be the new Keith Tracy. I think I know which way that guess has gone.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[Stuart]

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I remember saying when Mahoney first came into the reckoning at Rovers that he could be the new Damien Duff or he could be the new Keith Tracy. I think I know which way that guess as gone.

Comparing anyone to Damien Duff is lining them up to fail. Duff was special and would be playing for City if he were in the game now.

The saddest thing is that we will NEVER have another Duff while Mowbray is here. He’d have been stifled from the start, dropped when playing well and slated for not being defensive enough.

[Bigdoggsteel]

17 hours ago, Stuart said:

Comparing anyone to Damien Duff is lining them up to fail. Duff was special and would be playing for City if he were in the game now.

The saddest thing is that we will NEVER have another Duff while Mowbray is here. He’d have been stifled from the start, dropped when playing well and slated for not being defensive enough.

Christ can you imagine. "Damien needs to learn how we play. Work on the defensive side of his game. He needs to not take risks with the ball. He needs to wait for his chance"

All whilst Gallagher and Armstrong are on the wings. 

 

Edited November 8, 2019 by Bigdoggsteel

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

14 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Christ can you imagine. "Damien needs to learn how we play. Work on the defensive side of his game. He needs to not take risks with the ball. He needs to wait for his chance"

All whilst Gallagher and Armstrong are on the wings. 

 

If you were waiting for Duff to improve the defensive side of the game you'd be waiting a long while. Just give him the ball !

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

If you were waiting for Duff to improve the defensive side of the game you'd be waiting a long while. Just give him the ball !

Exactly. You can see with Rothwell and Chapman that rather than focus on their strengths, Mowbray is fixated on pointing out their weaknesses. 

[Exiled in Toronto]

14 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Exactly. You can see with Rothwell and Chapman that rather than focus on their strengths, Mowbray is fixated on pointing out their weaknesses. 

As I recall, one of Duff’s biggest weaknesses in Souness’s time was finishing, which was worked on to great effect by Dean Saunders. His strength at the time was dribbles which invariably ended in the softest of free kicks.

[Stuart]

1 hour ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

As I recall, one of Duff’s biggest weaknesses in Souness’s time was finishing, which was worked on to great effect by Dean Saunders. His strength at the time was dribbles which invariably ended in the softest of free kicks.

That sounds like getting the best out of his attacking strengths rather than nullifying them by asking him to play out of position and me more defensively minded.

[SkipDonoghue]

Mowbray is not the right man to bring the ypung players through, he doesn't have the back bone to give any young player an extended run in he team, he has talked the talk with regards many of them but he doesn't walk the walk

I have heard that there is a couple or so of the higher rated youngsters that are looking for a way out as they feel they have been led up the garden path a little and are at a stage in their careers where 1st team football is now so important for their future development

It's unlikely the players out on loan at present are unlikely to get an opportunity either as the pathway isn't there for them either

January will see a few go on loan, with this most of them will go into the last knockings of their contracts and with no intension of extending them as they see no pathway into the 1st team and once out on loan they do seem to become the forgotten men

Also to make any money on these young players would mean giving them a decent run in the 1st team that won't happen so they will walk for minimal amounts and once again with no benifit to Rovers in any way, the academy isn't being used in the correct way as it stands its failing and this is due to what happens at 1st team level and until this changes young players will leave for next to  nothing as they have in the past 

When was the last time Rovers picked up any decent money for an academy player? Phil Jones and then David Raya

This season should have seen at least 3 decent young players fully integrated into the 1st team but hasn't and its disappointing, the promotion of Damien Johnson should have seen this transition for the young players made seemless but it hasn't, so his role should be questioned also, does he have any input? I Highley doubt it