Academy & U21s

[riverholmes]

In the wake of Tyrhys Dolan being released by PNE and joining Rovers last year, Peter Ridsdale, advisor to PNE owner,  reiterated the club's decision to scrap their U23 set-up: “From a cost point of view the increased mandatory spend level including the cost of an Under 23 team is not insignificant and would merely reduce the amount that we have to spend on the first team.... In addition, it is our view that ‘Under 23’ league football is far removed from the challenges that ‘men’s football’ brings with it and we would much prefer to see those U18s that we think stand a chance, going either straight into our first team squad or going out on loan to lower league clubs."

Without knowing the details of Preston's success with this strategy (except that clearly Dolan was an incredible oversight), I can't really reach any conclusions but I would be interested to know how many of their released players are still playing at a high level. I suspect, not having an U23 squad will be very damaging to them in the long-term, as it will reduce their ability to retain and develop youth players.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by riverholmes

[perthblue02]

55 minutes ago, riverholmes said:

In the wake of Tyrhys Dolan being released by PNE and joining Rovers last year, Peter Ridsdale, advisor to PNE owner,  reiterated the club's decision to scrap their U23 set-up: “From a cost point of view the increased mandatory spend level including the cost of an Under 23 team is not insignificant and would merely reduce the amount that we have to spend on the first team.... In addition, it is our view that ‘Under 23’ league football is far removed from the challenges that ‘men’s football’ brings with it and we would much prefer to see those U18s that we think stand a chance, going either straight into our first team squad or going out on loan to lower league clubs."

Without knowing the details of Preston's success with this strategy (except that clearly Dolan was an incredible oversight), I can't really reach any conclusions but I would be interested to know how many of their released players are still playing at a high level. I suspect, not having an U23 squad will be very damaging to them in the long-term, as it will reduce their ability to retain and develop youth players.

 

 

players from the PNE u18's same year as Dolan

https://www.transfermarkt.com/preston-north-end-u18/transfers/verein/6697/saison_id/2020

 

 

[rigger]

8 minutes ago, perthblue02 said:

players from the PNE u18's same year as Dolan

https://www.transfermarkt.com/preston-north-end-u18/transfers/verein/6697/saison_id/2020

 

 

Isn't Joe Nolan with us now ?

[perthblue02]

9 minutes ago, rigger said:

Isn't Joe Nolan with us now ?

Yes, joined Jan 15 2021 from Runcorn accordng to the site linked to  in previous post

[chaddyrovers]

7 minutes ago, rigger said:

Isn't Joe Nolan with us now ?

correct

[Sparks Rover]

3 hours ago, perthblue02 said:

players from the PNE u18's same year as Dolan

https://www.transfermarkt.com/preston-north-end-u18/transfers/verein/6697/saison_id/2020

 

 

That's wrong.  JRG is a year younger than TD (year below scholarship wise)

Jack Baxter is a good player. Earl is doing well as their left back, I can see him playing higher.

Nobbers are now in the central league allowing them to keep  few more ...

Edited September 26, 2021 by Sparks Rover

[bluebruce]

4 hours ago, riverholmes said:

In the wake of Tyrhys Dolan being released by PNE and joining Rovers last year, Peter Ridsdale, advisor to PNE owner,  reiterated the club's decision to scrap their U23 set-up: “From a cost point of view the increased mandatory spend level including the cost of an Under 23 team is not insignificant and would merely reduce the amount that we have to spend on the first team.... In addition, it is our view that ‘Under 23’ league football is far removed from the challenges that ‘men’s football’ brings with it and we would much prefer to see those U18s that we think stand a chance, going either straight into our first team squad or going out on loan to lower league clubs."

Without knowing the details of Preston's success with this strategy (except that clearly Dolan was an incredible oversight), I can't really reach any conclusions but I would be interested to know how many of their released players are still playing at a high level. I suspect, not having an U23 squad will be very damaging to them in the long-term, as it will reduce their ability to retain and develop youth players.

 

 

Tbf for a club like Preston I can see the logic in that approach. We have rich owners and academy spend isn't counted for FFP so it makes sense for us to maximise our youth output as long as Venkys never call in the debt. Especially since we routinely fly close to breaking FFP, meaning our budget gets restricted suddenly and we need to use the u23s for squad fillers.

Preston losing Dolan was a failing of judgement rather than a failing of strategy. They could have retained him with or without an u23 team, they just didn't rate him highly enough to do so. Well, they were apparently going to at first until the budget looked too squeezed, but if they'd known how well he was going to do for us I'm sure they'd have signed him on anyway. He was on peanuts here at first.

[riverholmes]

I would suggest that Rovers are not using their U23s in the best manner, if you consider that we had a very successful team, results-wise, last year, finishing top four and, yet, none of those players are regularly close to the first team. Nor are any getting high level loan experience for development, most finding themselves in non-league.

Instead, young loan signings from the Premiership have been brought in. Butterworth and Carter are subs, at the moment, but neither were greatly involved in the U23s last season, being either injured or, on loan. Moreover, on the return of van Hecke (loanee), Wharton, Dack and Bradley Johnson, they may lose their place on the bench - or, at least, risk losing their places.

Whilst, in the past, we've seen players like Wharton (after numerous loan spells), Lenihan, Travis, Nyambe and, further in the past, Hanley and Raya and so on come through, I think it is fair to ask whether the current U23s expense can be justified, given the current output and production line. After all, the reason to sign up players like Sam Durrant or Joe Nolan for contract extensions is unlikely to be in the hope that they'll make it (seeing that they're so far behind in the pecking order - though Durrant, especially, definitely has talent, I think) but that they'll provide adequate support for the U23 squad, as a whole, for the development of others who might make it.

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by riverholmes

[briansol]

1 hour ago, riverholmes said:

I would suggest that Rovers are not using their U23s in the best manner, if you consider that we had a very successful team, results-wise, last year, finishing top four and, yet, none of those players are regularly close to the first team. Nor are any getting high level loan experience for development, most finding themselves in non-league.

Instead, young loan signings from the Premiership have been brought in. Butterworth and Carter are subs, at the moment, but neither were greatly involved in the U23s last season, being either injured or, on loan. Moreover, on the return of van Hecke (loanee), Wharton, Dack and Bradley Johnson, they may lose their place on the bench - or, at least, risk losing their places.

Whilst, in the past, we've seen players like Wharton (after numerous loan spells), Lenihan, Travis, Nyambe and, further in the past, Hanley and Raya and so on come through, I think it is fair to ask whether the current U23s expense can be justified, given the current output and production line. After all, the reason to sign up players like Sam Durrant or Joe Nolan for contract extensions is unlikely to be in the hope that they'll make it (seeing that they're so far behind in the pecking order - though Durrant, especially, definitely has talent, I think) but that they'll provide adequate support for the U23 squad, as a whole, for the development of others who might make it.

 

I understand your point, but there are some nuances to it.

- The team that did so well last term was better as a team than individuals. It was also a team with a lot of players fresh from U18 football that adjusted well to U23 like Cirino, Pike, Whitehall, Garrett and Burns to name some. All have potential but there is a big gap to senior football and especially Championship level. Most of them will benefit from half a season more playing U23 and going out on loan. 

- The biggest problem this summer was that the club couldn't release players on loan because the senior squad was so low on numbers. That's why Vale and Pike went to non-league, because the transfer window was closed. Both are good enough for league football.

The academy has brought through a fair number of players the latest years like Raya, Nyambe, Lenihan, JRC, Travis, Buckley, Wharton, Carter. Their transfer value should probably be equal and more than the running cost of the academy. 

There are also players like Vale, Butterworth and McBride who has some potential down the line, either at this club or through a transfer fee/sell-on clause.

Biggest asset at the academy at the moment is probably Ash Phillips who looks destined to become a multi-million player in the future. 

 

[rigger]

1 hour ago, briansol said:

I understand your point, but there are some nuances to it.

- The team that did so well last term was better as a team than individuals. It was also a team with a lot of players fresh from U18 football that adjusted well to U23 like Cirino, Pike, Whitehall, Garrett and Burns to name some. All have potential but there is a big gap to senior football and especially Championship level. Most of them will benefit from half a season more playing U23 and going out on loan. 

- The biggest problem this summer was that the club couldn't release players on loan because the senior squad was so low on numbers. That's why Vale and Pike went to non-league, because the transfer window was closed. Both are good enough for league football.

The academy has brought through a fair number of players the latest years like Raya, Nyambe, Lenihan, JRC, Travis, Buckley, Wharton, Carter. Their transfer value should probably be equal and more than the running cost of the academy. 

There are also players like Vale, Butterworth and McBride who has some potential down the line, either at this club or through a transfer fee/sell-on clause.

Biggest asset at the academy at the moment is probably Ash Phillips who looks destined to become a multi-million player in the future. 

 

I think the academys biggest asset is Sam Burns. Ash Phillips could well develop into a good player, but as he isn't signed to the club yet, I wouldn't class him as a asset until he is.

[JohnGo]

36 minutes ago, rigger said:

I think the academys biggest asset is Sam Burns. Ash Phillips could well develop into a good player, but as he isn't signed to the club yet, I wouldn't class him as a asset until he is.

He’s signed a pre-contact that comes into affect on his birthday.

[rigger]

2 minutes ago, JohnGo said:

He’s signed a pre-contact that comes into affect on his birthday.

He still has to sign a contract, when he comes of legal age. If he wanted to leave, the pre-contract would be worthless.

[JohnGo]

18 hours ago, rigger said:

He still has to sign a contract, when he comes of legal age. If he wanted to leave, the pre-contract would be worthless.

Rigger not bothered about the legal implications, I was responding that there was a pre contract, and from my Business Law days your correct it’s not enforceable but we can sue if the contract is not signed. 

[Tom]

Big club bias in effect - no England place for Dolan but Leighton Clarkson gets a spot in the under 20’s

[bluebruce]

2 minutes ago, Tom said:

Big club bias in effect - no England place for Dolan but Leighton Clarkson gets a spot in the under 20’s

Yep, ludicrous. One lad can't get into our first team and looks crap when he does, the other is a regular who contributes well. The usual horseshit. This kind of thing is why I lost interest in England outside of tournaments.

[rigger]

9 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

Yep, ludicrous. One lad can't get into our first team and looks crap when he does, the other is a regular who contributes well. The usual horseshit. This kind of thing is why I lost interest in England outside of tournaments.

They don't play in the same positions, so the comparrison is not realistic.

[Sparks Rover]

1 hour ago, rigger said:

They don't play in the same positions, so the comparrison is not realistic.

I think anyone can see the little boy is lucky to even be a professional,  how the feck he even gets a sniff of international football is mind boggling 

[rigger]

10 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

I think anyone can see the little boy is lucky to even be a professional,  how the feck he even gets a sniff of international football is mind boggling 

The only people whos thoughts count, are the ones who pick the squad. 

[Sparks Rover]

48 minutes ago, rigger said:

The only people whos thoughts count, are the ones who pick the squad. 

Yeah but seeing as we are on a messageboard exchanging views......

[rigger]

No first team game next week. Get down to Leyland, Friday night to watch the U23s.

[chaddyrovers]

 

 

[rigger]

U23s winning 0-1 at Chelsea in the  last minute of injury time. Sam Burns scores again. If Gally is injured, he surely should get a chance in the first team squad. He is quick, full of energy and forces defenders into mistakes.

[chaddyrovers]

Rovers beat Chelsea 1 nil with Sam Burns scoring a 11th minute penalty today. Game just finished. 

Here was team that played. 

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by chaddyrovers

[chaddyrovers]

Here is Chelsea match report plus over 3 minutes highlights of the game in the report 

https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/2021/10/03/pl2-report--chelsea-0-blackburn-rovers-1?cardIndex=0-1

[inflikted]

On 27/09/2021 at 18:13, briansol said:

I understand your point, but there are some nuances to it.

- The team that did so well last term was better as a team than individuals. It was also a team with a lot of players fresh from U18 football that adjusted well to U23 like Cirino, Pike, Whitehall, Garrett and Burns to name some. All have potential but there is a big gap to senior football and especially Championship level. Most of them will benefit from half a season more playing U23 and going out on loan. 

- The biggest problem this summer was that the club couldn't release players on loan because the senior squad was so low on numbers. That's why Vale and Pike went to non-league, because the transfer window was closed. Both are good enough for league football.

The academy has brought through a fair number of players the latest years like Raya, Nyambe, Lenihan, JRC, Travis, Buckley, Wharton, Carter. Their transfer value should probably be equal and more than the running cost of the academy. 

There are also players like Vale, Butterworth and McBride who has some potential down the line, either at this club or through a transfer fee/sell-on clause.

Biggest asset at the academy at the moment is probably Ash Phillips who looks destined to become a multi-million player in the future. 

 

Yeah I think Louie would have 100% gone out on loan had the first team not been paper thin.