Academy & U21s

[RoverCanada]

12 hours ago, bluebruce said:

Not sure I'd say it didn't work. He had some injury problems I believe, and was used on the flanks instead of through the middle. 1 goal in 10 league games doesn't look great, but only 475 minutes, so just over 5 full games worth, and from out wide. 1 assist in 2 FA Cup games. .

But more importantly, he seems to have come back with a real hunger, or valuable experience of playing with fully matured men, or both. He already seems to have outgrown u23s football just two games later. He is now just a goal behind Sam Burns' tally this season. I felt it was a poor quality loan we got for him, but so far it's looking like it paid off.

Might be he gets some time off the bench this season, but if that doesn't happen then hopefully he gets a loan higher up the pyramid in the summer to test himself.

He also scored in the FA Cup (against giants Pontefract Collieries) and had a goal in the FA Trophy too (against giants Bradford Park Avenue). So, 3 goals across 14 appearances total, plus a few assists.

His third hattrick of the season, counting his 3 against Bulgaria's u21s back in September 🙂

It doesn't sound like his Halifax loan was a 'failure', their fans seemed to like him okay, but you'd also hope/expect he'd be a bit more dominant at the level. Although, as you say, he was often thrown out wide, plus still lingering injury issues. Getting game time for our loans in the lower leagues isn't always a given... 

Won't be counting on him just yet. But we're likely fine throwing him on the bench if attacking numbers get stretched again. I have a vivid memory of Vale cracking the crossbar in his one sub appearance a couple years ago... hope he can get it together.

I presume we were comfortable loaning out one of McBride or Vale (in addition to Burns heading out), while the other would get u23 starts plus emergency striker option...

Vale's still under contract through 2023, while we have an option on McBride.

Brennan with a goal last night too. He seemed to be knocking at the door a couple years ago and then fell off...

Edited February 5, 2022 by RoverCanada

[Sparks Rover]

4 hours ago, arbitro said:

I honestly don't know what you mean.

You wouldn't mate....John Prince is the new youth phase coach .  Hes a top chap and very knowledgeable about local youth players...

I mentioned this last year that we would be fishing more local...

[Sparks Rover]

3 hours ago, Spartakfenni said:

Look on LancsLive. There’s an article on him from last year.

Sparks - another good poach from PNE. I see he’s also got Bumley in his past!

Yes, plus Dave Taberner just come in from Burnley too....he will be helping John.

[Roverinbelfast]

13 hours ago, joey_big_nose said:

Rovers seem to have a very good conveyor belt of talent over the last 3 years - anyone got a view on why that is? Down to certain individuals in the Rovers heirachy or more of a structural thing?

Club gets a lot of stick for "mismanagement" but in this critical area of youth development we seem to be doing a fantastic job.

I'm sure it's a collective thing with all the background staff. Interestingly on one of my last visits I was talking to a few locals, real nice fellas and very welcoming. Anyhow.....one of them claimed to have worked for rovers at a stage and said that Andy Taylor is highly regarded by everyone at rovers and has a real eye for talent and plays a major role in everything that goes on in the academy. Tbh after the conversation I had to Google exactly who Andy Taylor was as I'm not up to speed with all the background staff.

[bluebruce]

1 hour ago, Sparks Rover said:

You wouldn't mate....John Prince is the new youth phase coach .  Hes a top chap and very knowledgeable about local youth players...

I mentioned this last year that we would be fishing more local...

How new is he, a year ago? If so he will have nothing to do with the recruitment of any of the players we are talking about on here I should think. As you know in most cases (other than our Manure, Lpool etc cast offs, which we have been shopping for for many years) we get these lads young and develop them over a number of years. Hopefully his expertise serves us well in the years to come though. Always good to hear we have quality staff, after letting so many go in recent years.

[bluebruce]

2 hours ago, RoverCanada said:

He also scored in the FA Cup (against giants Pontefract Collieries) and had a goal in the FA Trophy too (against giants Bradford Park Avenue). So, 3 goals across 14 appearances total, plus a few assists.

His third hattrick of the season, counting his 3 against Bulgaria's u21s back in September 🙂

It doesn't sound like his Halifax loan was a 'failure', their fans seemed to like him okay, but you'd also hope/expect he'd be a bit more dominant at the level. Although, as you say, he was often thrown out wide, plus still lingering injury issues. Getting game time for our loans in the lower leagues isn't always a given... 

Won't be counting on him just yet. But we're likely fine throwing him on the bench if attacking numbers get stretched again. I have a vivid memory of Vale cracking the crossbar in his one sub appearance a couple years ago... hope he can get it together.

I presume we were comfortable loaning out one of McBride or Vale (in addition to Burns heading out), while the other would get u23 starts plus emergency striker option...

Vale's still under contract through 2023, while we have an option on McBride.

Brennan with a goal last night too. He seemed to be knocking at the door a couple years ago and then fell off...

Oh weird, the FA Cup goal didn't show up. Maybe it was in a qualifying round? The FA Trophy isn't showing up at all either. Cheers for the corrections.

He didn't pull up trees there, but given injuries and being played wide it doesn't seem too bad. Shame the level was low (probably a bit closer to League Two than we give it credit for though) but that means more games. We also don't know how well suited to their system and style of play he was.

I've no qualms with him sitting the bench if we are stretched. I remember him cracking the crossbar too, which is Butterworth's main claim to fame, so I don't feel we have downgraded that option.

I feel McBride is finished here. It's a truly terrible level he has gone to, and unlike Vale it was during the window so plenty of better sides to potentially go to. What happened to the EFL League One interest he was meant to have from...Crewe was it? Given his contract is up in the summer, I'm not sure what we expect to learn about him in the Scottish third tier in order to decide whether to trigger that extension. Even if we do, that gives him one more year to earn a new deal, at 21 and with his only achievement in his time here being a 12 goal PL2 season (I think a few were penalties too?), which at that point will have been 3 seasons ago. He'll likely have no chance of first team involvement next season and need a damned sight better loan at that point to show us he is worth persisting with. I think he should have been allowed a couple of sub appearances whilst he was hot last season, especially in our dead rubbers, where I still struggle to forgive TM for not trying out more youngsters.

I do wonder if these low calibre loans sometimes demoralise the players who feel they're doing well in the top youth league and should either be challenging for our bench or getting better loans. In some case it may fire them up, almost by slighting them, and I think that may have happened with Vale. Plus it's still learning how to play against stronger men. But on the whole I'm not a fan, and I find our loaning out policy confusing.

So many times we have refused to send out the 6th choice player on a good loan for a position we are well stocked, only to sometimes send them anyway after the window has closed to a non league team. Meanwhile we just sent our 5th choice CB out on loan, when we play 3 at a time in that position and are challenging for promotion, plus one of the other 4 is highly injury prone. Barmy.

[Sparks Rover]

34 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

How new is he, a year ago? If so he will have nothing to do with the recruitment of any of the players we are talking about on here I should think. 

He just coaches them...senior youth development coach/manager.🤷‍♂️ I'd say he's the reason to be honest.  Good lad John.. 👏  there's a couple more in the building recently that should do us no harm. Paul Gray from the nobbers too..

Edited February 5, 2022 by Sparks Rover

[bluebruce]

5 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

He just coaches them...senior youth development coach/manager.🤷‍♂️ I'd say he's the reason to be honest.  Good lad John.. 👏  there's a couple more in the building recently that should do us no harm. Paul Gray from the nobbers too..

How long has he been in the building?

[Sparks Rover]

15 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

How long has he been in the building?

Nearly 12 months I'd think so there will be lads in the 16s/17s that he will be involved with....all good mate...👍

[bluebruce]

54 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

Nearly 12 months I'd think so there will be lads in the 16s/17s that he will be involved with....all good mate...👍

Aye I'm not suggesting he isn't doing a job, and probably a good one. But by the nature of his role it will take time before we really reap the benefits.

He has had nothing to do with the development of Lenihan, Travis, Nyambe, Raya, all the lads that have come through in recent years. He will have had minimal impact, relatively speaking, if any, on the development so far of the likes of Carter, Butterworth, Vale...even for the likes of A. Wharton and Phillips it will have been minimal so far. My point is, he isn't the reason for the upturn in productivity and talent in the last few years, which is what your initial mention of him seemed to be implying (by what you were quoting when you said it). But again, if he's highly regarded I'm more than happy he's in the setup and hopefully we forge even more stars with him over the next few years.

[bluebruce]

On 22/03/2015 at 08:08, Andyblue2 said:

Only Nyambe even worth speaking about for the future. the rest are very very average.

Just had a nosey back at the first page of this topic, and saw this ill-fated assessment from 2015. Looking at the other posts around then, the crop he was talking about included Raya, Lenihan and probably Travis. Oops!

On another note, isn't it time this thread got renamed to say U23s instead of U21s? Just for the sake of accuracy.

[Miker]

Back to back hat tricks for Vale. Surely he must be knocking on the first team door to at least get the chance off the bench?

Will we see him before the end of the season?

[bluebruce]

Butterworth came off the bench for Fleetwood today, but their goalscorer was another ex-Rover, Anthony Pilkington.

[EwoodGlory]

From nicko... 

Man utd and Chelsea leading transfer chase for Blackburn sensation Ashley Phillips after scouting 16-year-old all season

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/17558607/ashley-phillips-man-utd-chelsea-transfer-blackburn/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=sunfootballtwitter&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1644088013

Says he is under contract? Do pre contracts count before they kick in? 

[47er]

1 hour ago, EwoodGlory said:

From nicko... 

Man utd and Chelsea leading transfer chase for Blackburn sensation Ashley Phillips after scouting 16-year-old all season

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/17558607/ashley-phillips-man-utd-chelsea-transfer-blackburn/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=sunfootballtwitter&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1644088013

Says he is under contract? Do pre contracts count before they kick in? 

Another player we won't see much of I suspect. And the sooner one of these big clubs snap him up, the less we will get for him.

Sickening.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

13 minutes ago, 47er said:

Another player we won't see much of I suspect. And the sooner one of these big clubs snap him up, the less we will get for him.

Sickening.

Yeah, when we had Mike England at least we got a good few seasons out of him. The Jones came along and we got a good few games out of him.

 Now players are gone and we don’t even get a first team game out of them.

[ben_the_beast]

Certainly hoping this pre contract isn't a deal for just a couple of years like the majority of our young players get. If he's as good as everybody says he is from a financial point of view we need to protect our asset. Look at what Dortmund paid for Bellingham. And now he's being touted around for double to triple what they paid. 

We really need to get him signed asap and then he/we can allow him to develop at a pace which is right for him when moving into our first team. 

I truly think it's completely unfair that the 'super clubs' can swoop in for players before they turn 17. What happened with Fulham and Harvey Elliott would have my blood boiling. What did they get in tribunal... about £7million? For a player that is worth at least £30m a couple of years later and that figure is only increasing. Probably not possible as its restricting players rights to movement but I do think it should be outlawed in some way.

Hopefully the rumblings of this 'pre-contract' are true. 

[Sparks Rover]

18 hours ago, bluebruce said:

Aye I'm not suggesting he isn't doing a job, and probably a good one. But by the nature of his role it will take time before we really reap the benefits.

He has had nothing to do with the development of Lenihan, Travis, Nyambe, Raya, all the lads that have come through in recent years. He will have had minimal impact, relatively speaking, if any, on the development so far of the likes of Carter, Butterworth, Vale...even for the likes of A. Wharton and Phillips it will have been minimal so far. My point is, he isn't the reason for the upturn in productivity and talent in the last few years, which is what your initial mention of him seemed to be implying (by what you were quoting when you said it). But again, if he's highly regarded I'm more than happy he's in the setup and hopefully we forge even more stars with him over the next few years.

Hold on, you were talking about the young 18s....he has had an impact and brought some in.....fact

Obviously all the others that you mentioned  were all here before him....

Edited February 6, 2022 by Sparks Rover

[Sparks Rover]

3 minutes ago, ben_the_beast said:

 

I truly think it's completely unfair that the 'super clubs' can swoop in for players before they turn 17.

I was talking to a Utd scout on Friday and all he does is watch other academies like ours to buy under 16s.....its rife mate...

[ben_the_beast]

Rich Sharpe stating the pre-contract Ash Phillips signed at 16 was 5 years so will have 4 years left once it kicks in at 17 which is reassuring. I still won't be relaxed until its all official after his 17th birthday though. 

[yankfan]

5 hours ago, ben_the_beast said:

Rich Sharpe stating the pre-contract Ash Phillips signed at 16 was 5 years so will have 4 years left once it kicks in at 17 which is reassuring. I still won't be relaxed until its all official after his 17th birthday though. 

Of course that's if "Guy Mowbary" doesn't decide to sell him first:  Manchester United and Chelsea leading race to sign Blackburn star Ashley Phillips | Metro News

[Spartakfenni]

On 05/02/2022 at 22:08, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Yeah, when we had Mike England at least we got a good few seasons out of him. The Jones came along and we got a good few games out of him.

 Now players are gone and we don’t even get a first team game out of them.

Franz Carr was the same years ago when Forest came calling. Nothing new, we find a diamond and the sharks start circling. I hope someone has told the Venkeys about him, so they can tell city clubs to fuck off.

[rigger]

2 hours ago, Spartakfenni said:

Franz Carr was the same years ago when Forest came calling. Nothing new, we find a diamond and the sharks start circling. I hope someone has told the Venkeys about him, so they can tell city clubs to fuck off.

Didn't Carr end up being a good bit of business by the Rovers. Wasn't it mentioned that Carrs father (also his agent), didn't see eye to eye with Uncle Jack.

Edited February 8, 2022 by rigger

[RoverCanada]

On 05/02/2022 at 14:41, bluebruce said:

Oh weird, the FA Cup goal didn't show up. Maybe it was in a qualifying round? The FA Trophy isn't showing up at all either. Cheers for the corrections.

He didn't pull up trees there, but given injuries and being played wide it doesn't seem too bad. Shame the level was low (probably a bit closer to League Two than we give it credit for though) but that means more games. We also don't know how well suited to their system and style of play he was.

I've no qualms with him sitting the bench if we are stretched. I remember him cracking the crossbar too, which is Butterworth's main claim to fame, so I don't feel we have downgraded that option.

I feel McBride is finished here. It's a truly terrible level he has gone to, and unlike Vale it was during the window so plenty of better sides to potentially go to. What happened to the EFL League One interest he was meant to have from...Crewe was it? Given his contract is up in the summer, I'm not sure what we expect to learn about him in the Scottish third tier in order to decide whether to trigger that extension. Even if we do, that gives him one more year to earn a new deal, at 21 and with his only achievement in his time here being a 12 goal PL2 season (I think a few were penalties too?), which at that point will have been 3 seasons ago. He'll likely have no chance of first team involvement next season and need a damned sight better loan at that point to show us he is worth persisting with. I think he should have been allowed a couple of sub appearances whilst he was hot last season, especially in our dead rubbers, where I still struggle to forgive TM for not trying out more youngsters.

I do wonder if these low calibre loans sometimes demoralise the players who feel they're doing well in the top youth league and should either be challenging for our bench or getting better loans. In some case it may fire them up, almost by slighting them, and I think that may have happened with Vale. Plus it's still learning how to play against stronger men. But on the whole I'm not a fan, and I find our loaning out policy confusing.

So many times we have refused to send out the 6th choice player on a good loan for a position we are well stocked, only to sometimes send them anyway after the window has closed to a non league team. Meanwhile we just sent our 5th choice CB out on loan, when we play 3 at a time in that position and are challenging for promotion, plus one of the other 4 is highly injury prone. Barmy.

Soccerway seems to be the best source for getting lower league/cup appearances (and bench) data. They also collect u23/academy stats: https://uk.soccerway.com/players/jack-vale/460620/ Appears those FA Cup/FA Trophy goals were during the 'qualifying' rounds, so maybe don't show up elsewhere.

Yeah, I won't be counting on McBride... His PL2 scoring rate halved from 0.71/90 to 0.34/90 as Burns seemingly surpassed him. I suspect whatever L1/L2 interest faded accordingly. Got a start for his first Queen's Park game at least (and it's a step up from his Scottish League 2 loan a few years ago 🙂), but agreed it's a bad sign. I imagine we'll still take up the option, depending how the loan goes.

Re: lower-level loans, it's case-by-case, but I suspect it's more youngsters (and their agents) pushing for starts but getting 'found out' in men's football rather than a sudden loss in confidence dooming their development. Maybe you hold out for L1/L2 loans, but then they risk getting stuck on the bench (as we've seen with Vale, Magloire, Fisher)

Sam Burns looks like a good example of impressing during a brief lower league loan to help secure him starting football at a L2 side. Dan Pike is maybe a questionable loan this year, but I think he also had some poorly timed injuries (and he's now getting starts every week at least). It's different for GKers, but I imagine Hilton's getting some great experience starting every game for Hamilton, even if it's only the Scottish Championship.

I guess it depends on your opinion of Johnson/Nyambe as makeshift CBs, but I'm not as concerned as about our CB depth, particularly if taking into account allocating an apparently tight budget. I'm quite happy with Carter getting another L1 loan, where he's getting starts and apparently impressing so far (looked good when I caught 20min of a Portsmouth game last week), following in Wharton's footsteps. We kept him around when needed to start the year (10 apps ain't too shabby), but he hadn't even made the bench since early Nov.

[Mattyblue]

17 hours ago, yankfan said:

Of course that's if "Guy Mowbary" doesn't decide to sell him first:  Manchester United and Chelsea leading race to sign Blackburn star Ashley Phillips | Metro News

The BBC commentator Guy Mowbray has somehow been impressed with him in the mythical ‘Under 21 side’.

Some piece that, a national paper too, no wonder it’s free.