Academy & U21s

[bluebruce]

7 hours ago, Atko's Engine said:

https://trainingground.guru/articles/premier-league-2-to-switch-to-swiss-style-format-from-next-season

This seems to be being reported in a number of places, so guessing it's true, but I can't see any mention of it from Rovers' perspective.

It seems like we would've been the only PL2 div 1 side not to have had a say in this, wonder if there is an ulterior motive to it besides those stated? 

Less games overall, with more games being against middling teams, doesn't sound to me to be as beneficial for our younger players & marks a massive shift in the goalposts I'd say...

That sounds like a pointlessly convoluted load of old bollocks.

[ben_the_beast]

10 hours ago, Atko's Engine said:

https://trainingground.guru/articles/premier-league-2-to-switch-to-swiss-style-format-from-next-season

This seems to be being reported in a number of places, so guessing it's true, but I can't see any mention of it from Rovers' perspective.

It seems like we would've been the only PL2 div 1 side not to have had a say in this, wonder if there is an ulterior motive to it besides those stated? 

Less games overall, with more games being against middling teams, doesn't sound to me to be as beneficial for our younger players & marks a massive shift in the goalposts I'd say...

I saw this yesterday. Looks like a crap proposal. Strikes me as being pushed by big teams who are pissed off that their very expensive academies aren't performing. 

It felt like a big deal for us to stay up last year and actually produced some fixtures that had some pressure, which is very hard to simulate at that level. 

The reasoning that clubs are worried that potential relegation results in teams hanging onto better players is the most paper thin, piss poor argument I've ever heard.

[KentExile]

7 hours ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

Essentially a 3 year deal for a lad who has just got over an ACL. Same deal they gave Gamble, and they rate Gamble highly apparently. Obviously they feel the same about ZG.

Only seen bits of ZG but he looks a very talented lad.

Potentially if he develops as is hoped, he could end up as a genuine replacement for Dack in the future

[philipl]

Two things encourage me greatly.

1) players like Gilsenan and Cirino who have had serious injury issues are being given more chances through extended contracts. Yes it is a roll of the dice for the club but it shows how we stick with players as individuals.

2) There are signs that the production line is continuing. Perhaps the stunning talents like Adam Wharton and Ash Phillips are one offs (two offs?) but great that there are talents coming through who excite.

[goozburger]

5 minutes ago, philipl said:

Two things encourage me greatly.

1) players like Gilsenan and Cirino who have had serious injury issues are being given more chances through extended contracts.

Cirino only had the option taken on his contract, alongside Harlock and Baker. I get the impression that it means they have a year in the last chance saloon.

[KentExile]

2 hours ago, goozburger said:

Cirino only had the option taken on his contract, alongside Harlock and Baker. I get the impression that it means they have a year in the last chance saloon.

Reminds me of a Gladwin type situation where we are helping them through their recovery and then helping them find a club to move on with the rest of their career.

I agree with this approach... not because of any moral or humanitarian reasons, but because future young players (and their family/advisors) will see this and know that even if youngsters don't make it with Rovers, the club will do right by them rather than just casting them aside helps Rovers compete with the big boys for young players

Harock is an interesting one though, highly thought of and was with the 1st team training for most of the season.  but will be 21 this season and has a lot of young competition in front of him for a midfield spot and players like O'Grady-Macken and James Edmondsson just behind

[philipl]

2 hours ago, goozburger said:

Cirino only had the option taken on his contract, alongside Harlock and Baker. I get the impression that it means they have a year in the last chance saloon.

Agreed but they are getting the chance when most clubs would have ejected them by now.

Add Barnes to the list of contract extensions when injured.

Sends messages to the players themselves but also for Academy recruitment. 

Rovers are a club that sticks by you in rough times and takes a longer view.

Hopefully helps the case for the Rovers Academy when talking to top developing talent and who knows, might even help with retaining players we want to keep.

[rigger]

3 hours ago, ben_the_beast said:

I saw this yesterday. Looks like a crap proposal. Strikes me as being pushed by big teams who are pissed off that their very expensive academies aren't performing. 

It felt like a big deal for us to stay up last year and actually produced some fixtures that had some pressure, which is very hard to simulate at that level. 

The reasoning that clubs are worried that potential relegation results in teams hanging onto better players is the most paper thin, piss poor argument I've ever heard.

I will be very surprised if we are not in a lower pool.

[rigger]

3 hours ago, KentExile said:

Potentially if he develops as is hoped, he could end up as a genuine replacement for Dack in the future

On the treatment table ?

[rigger]

3 hours ago, philipl said:

Two things encourage me greatly.

1) players like Gilsenan and Cirino who have had serious injury issues are being given more chances through extended contracts. Yes it is a roll of the dice for the club but it shows how we stick with players as individuals.

2) There are signs that the production line is continuing. Perhaps the stunning talents like Adam Wharton and Ash Phillips are one offs (two offs?) but great that there are talents coming through who excite.

Batty (three offs)

[KentExile]

Just now, rigger said:

On the treatment table ?

lol.. but I would hope for a 2nd coming of the Dack we saw for the first 2 or 3 years, rather than the last 2 or 3

[rigger]

1 minute ago, KentExile said:

lol.. but I would hope for a 2nd coming of the Dack we saw for the first 2 or 3 years, rather than the last 2 or 3

Szmodic is most likely to fill that role.

[KentExile]

9 minutes ago, rigger said:

Szmodics is most likely to fill that role.

for 2 or 3 years yes... but that's not to say that we cant/don't bring kids through the youth system to eventually replace them.  I didn't mean Gilsenan would be playing 30+ games and soring 10+ goals this season

Edited June 21, 2023 by KentExile

[Atko's Engine]

10 hours ago, philipl said:

Agreed but they are getting the chance when most clubs would have ejected them by now.

Add Barnes to the list of contract extensions when injured.

Sends messages to the players themselves but also for Academy recruitment. 

Rovers are a club that sticks by you in rough times and takes a longer view.

Hopefully helps the case for the Rovers Academy when talking to top developing talent and who knows, might even help with retaining players we want to keep.

When you factor in that compassionate element to our academy system alongside of a clear & proven route into first team football that is well-established, you'd think that would count for a hell of a lot in the minds of potential players' parents, if not the players themselves.

[rigger]

6 hours ago, Atko's Engine said:

When you factor in that compassionate element to our academy system alongside of a clear & proven route into first team football that is well-established, you'd think that would count for a hell of a lot in the minds of potential players' parents, if not the players themselves.

It's the agents that matter.

[Atko's Engine]

6 hours ago, rigger said:

It's the agents that matter.

Very often one & the same at younger academy level. I agree for 17 years upwards, but again having a good reputation with agents is no bad thing (sadly).

[riverholmes]

On 10/06/2023 at 02:24, bluebruce said:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/23576445.blackburn-rovers-frustrated-lack-efl-opportunities-players/

I share his frustration at the lack of EFL opportunities we've been able to manage for our youngsters. We clearly have one of the best academies in the country, playing at the top youth level, churning out a string of Championship level players, and yet pro clubs don't seem as interested because the main team isn't in the Prem.

I hope we can work on this somehow. You can't force clubs to take your youth players and use them, but the use of the phrase in there of something like the phone doesn't ring enough...maybe we can work on improving our networking with other clubs and starting these discussions ourselves instead of hanging back and waiting for it to happen. I'm not saying this is entirely our fault either, I do agree with him there's probably an unfair perception of our youth players not being as glamorous due to not being attached to a Prem club. I'm sure we've had more youngsters who could have made an impact at League One and Two levels if they'd had the chances, than have had the chances. That said, some of our youngsters loaned out have disappointed a bit (albeit sometimes from lack of game time), but that's the nature of loaning youth players.

I have questions about this and whether other factors are at play. I'm guessing but I suspect that the club have at times blocked loan move opportunities due to indecision or worries about the strength of the first team squad. Cases in point would be Conor McBride and Sam Burns who had stellar periods in the U23s and, in the case of McBride, had made a first team pre-season appearance and scored for the firsts. However, the club proceeded to keep hold of them in the U23s. Of course, I don't know if they had interested clubs but my guess would be they would have had at that time. 

If Tyler Magloire who had a difficult loan in Scotland, albeit, he played a lot, and was unimpressive in his appearances for Rovers found a loan move, you would think that some others would too.

I have no experience in this area and am speculating but I think the club could, potentially, do more to release players for loan moves at the start of campaigns, when EFL clubs are planning their squads and their budgets. For example, the club should be, in my opinion, offering Jack Vale a loan move, unless, of course, they see him as integral to the first team this coming campaign.

Edit: One thing I hope we see less of is the 1 month/very short non-league loan moves for key U23 players. Burns and Pike have gone on them and I can't see what point there is. If it's a 17 year old gaining some work experience or someone who's going to be let go and is not worth having around, that's a different matter.

Also, a longer-term loan move in non-league, like Raya had, might have some benefit, but the very short-term bitty and low quality loans don't seem to serve much of a purpose.

Edited June 23, 2023 by riverholmes

[bluebruce]

9 hours ago, riverholmes said:

Edit: One thing I hope we see less of is the 1 month/very short non-league loan moves for key U23 players. Burns and Pike have gone on them and I can't see what point there is. If it's a 17 year old gaining some work experience or someone who's going to be let go and is not worth having around, that's a different matter.

Also, a longer-term loan move in non-league, like Raya had, might have some benefit, but the very short-term bitty and low quality loans don't seem to serve much of a purpose.

Raya's loan was only a 4 month one too. Pike spent more time at Fylde than that overall. I think those loans can be handy for younger players who need a taste of the physicality and stakes of first team football, but agree I'm not sure what it achieved for the likes of Burns and Pike. I think it's just been desperation to get them experience when we've struggled to get a league loan sorted.

[roversfan99]

I think Burns and Pike are clearly not deemed at anywhere near the standard, so at least it got them some experience with finding a new club. 

[bluebruce]

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/23617466.blackburn-rovers-youngsters-given-chance-impress-tomasson/

Rory Finneran, 15, has taken part in the internal games with the senior team. Also 16 year olds Max Davies and Tom Atcheson, both centre halves.

Anyone have knowledge of any of them?

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

30 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/23617466.blackburn-rovers-youngsters-given-chance-impress-tomasson/

Rory Finneran, 15, has taken part in the internal games with the senior team. Also 16 year olds Max Davies and Tom Atcheson, both centre halves.

Anyone have knowledge of any of them?

Bloody hell we’re making a habit of bringing centre halves through ! Can’t any of them play up front ?

[bluebruce]

10 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Bloody hell we’re making a habit of bringing centre halves through ! Can’t any of them play up front ?

Just checked google and Finneran is described as a defensive midfielder...so that's something different I guess, but it's another position we produce plenty. Although I suppose if Travis leaves and this kid comes along, by the time Tronstad is faded we should have an experienced DM in Garrett and this lad will be coming of age. If they both prove up to it.

Our CB production line in the last however many years has been ridiculous though.

[arbitro]

2 hours ago, bluebruce said:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/23617466.blackburn-rovers-youngsters-given-chance-impress-tomasson/

Rory Finneran, 15, has taken part in the internal games with the senior team. Also 16 year olds Max Davies and Tom Atcheson, both centre halves.

Anyone have knowledge of any of them?

I've seen the latter two in the under 18's and was impressed with them. The first thing that struck me was physique but it was soon apparent they can play too. They both seemed to like the physical side of the game but were comfortable in possession when they had to be. I know Tomasson has only been here a year but one of his strengths for me is giving young players a chance. It must be really good for any young prospects to know that the first team manager will give you a chance to impress whilst training with seasoned professionals if you show up well.

[Mike E]

2 hours ago, bluebruce said:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/23617466.blackburn-rovers-youngsters-given-chance-impress-tomasson/

Rory Finneran, 15, has taken part in the internal games with the senior team. Also 16 year olds Max Davies and Tom Atcheson, both centre halves.

Anyone have knowledge of any of them?

Finneran’s agent is a pal of mine, and he says he tries to emulate Roy Keane in his style of play.

Personally think he does a solid impression, he’s hard defensively, but equally capable of bursting forward.

I think we’ll be talking about him in a similar vein as we spoke about Jones and now Wharton. Capable of being a generational talent.

[bluebruce]

3 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Finneran’s agent is a pal of mine, and he says he tries to emulate Roy Keane in his style of play.

Personally think he does a solid impression, he’s hard defensively, but equally capable of bursting forward.

I think we’ll be talking about him in a similar vein as we spoke about Jones and now Wharton. Capable of being a generational talent.

That's great to hear, time will tell but hope you're right. Hope Phillips turns into that too (with us of course).