Academy & U21s

[JAL]

54 minutes ago, Gavlar Somerset Rover! said:

How many goals did the likes of Neville and Cole score? Even the likes of Walker only ever score extremely rarely today. So long as they're defending well, and adding value going forward through assists and providing telling passes, then what's the issue?

Striking the balance and optimising it to its fullest to give the team every chance of winning.  If, the option to cross isnt there, then what ? backwards, sideways or switch play, which is fine, but then there has to be a responsibility to go it alone and put the ball in the onion bag thus increasing yours and the teams options.

This is development level remember so these lads should be encouraged to try it out and score goals when and where possible. Otherwise its restrictive coaching for me with a lot of monkey sees monkeys do type of attitudes, followers not leaders.

 

Edited September 12, 2017 by JAL

[Dreams of 1995]

Well done JAL you've exceeded yourself this time. A definite wind up merchant if I've ever saw one. Criticising the young full backs for having to "contribute more goals" because, simply, just "crossing it in" to others isn't enough.

Primarily I want my full backs to be able to tackle, head and mark. After that if they can get up and down the wing to provide width I'm happy. Finally, if they can either get in the early cross or beat the opposition full back to the byline and whip one in I'm ecstatic. If they pop up with one or two goals every now and again then it's a bonus but it certainly isn't a benchmark for a good full back. What an absurd suggestion.

Let's take an example of some of the best recent full backs to play in England (and yes Bigdoggsteel, if you read this, these stats are from wikipedia before you get on your horse):

Ashley Cole: 636 appearances, 18 goals.

Gary Neville: 602 appearances, 7 goals.

Pablo Zabaleta (only counting apps for Man City): 332 apps, 11 goals.

Patrice Evra: 726 appearances, 24 goals.

Lee Dixon: 831 appearances, 41 goals.

La Saux: 402 apps, 20 goals.

I could go on and on and on. It's evident that goals does not make a great full back. It's worth noting that some of the more "free-scoring" full backs have been free kick takers - Irwin, Harte etc. Whilst your players like Ivanovic were incredibly gifted in the air for corners.

 

[chaddyrovers]

5 hours ago, JAL said:

Your not going to score every game but Travis and Doyle need to be able to step in with a few goals other than just keep on crossing it for them to be first team material.

full backs score a couple of goals per season at the very best in the PL, like Kyle Walker or Tripper, Valencia or left back like Ben Davies, Blind or Mendy. so I suggest you stop moaning about another non story. 

Travis and Doyle put in enough crosses into the box last night to score at least 5 goals, Nuttall were quiet, JRC went quiet after his goal, Mols had chances, Platt had 2 good chances. 

[JAL]

My understanding of what Gavlar was implying was that these well known full backs didn't score goals thus the reply.

We want Doyle to be another Le Saux.

Edited September 12, 2017 by JAL

[JAL]

19 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

full backs score a couple of goals per season at the very best in the PL, like Kyle Walker or Tripper, Valencia or left back like Ben Davies, Blind or Mendy. so I suggest you stop moaning about another non story. 

Travis and Doyle put in enough crosses into the box last night to score at least 5 goals, Nuttall were quiet, JRC went quiet after his goal, Mols had chances, Platt had 2 good chances. 

What I'm implying is when the crosses aren't causing a positive outcome they then finish it themselves just to clarify.

[Dreams of 1995]

19 minutes ago, JAL said:

What I'm implying is when the crosses aren't causing a positive outcome they then finish it themselves just to clarify.

When crosses aren't causing a "positive" I'd expect my midfielders and strikers to take it upon themselves to add more creativity. I certainly wouldn't want my full back marauding into the box in the hope of a screamer.

And the reference to him being another La Saux is mind boggling...he was hardly prolific for Rovers was he?

[JAL]

8 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

When crosses aren't causing a "positive" I'd expect my midfielders and strikers to take it upon themselves to add more creativity. I certainly wouldn't want my full back marauding into the box in the hope of a screamer.

And the reference to him being another La Saux is mind boggling...he was hardly prolific for Rovers was he?

 

8 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

When crosses aren't causing a "positive" I'd expect my midfielders and strikers to take it upon themselves to add more creativity. I certainly wouldn't want my full back marauding into the box in the hope of a screamer.

And the reference to him being another La Saux is mind boggling...he was hardly prolific for Rovers was he?

20 goals is better than none dreams. 

When that time arrives and full back has a one v one situation the cross for me is out, you take him on, beat him and put it in the back of the net.

Then we are all better off !  If I'm coaching youngsters to keep crossing the ball and not finishing it, I'd feel I've failed as a coach.

 

[JBiz]

Just now, JAL said:

 

20 goals is better than none dreams. 

When that time arrives and full back has a one v one situation the cross for me is out, you take him on, beat him and put it in the back of the net.

Then we are all better off !  If I'm coaching youngsters to keep crossing the ball and not finishing it, I'd feel I've failed as a coach.

 

It's different if you put it like that, but still I'd expect them to be working more on passing, tackling, fitness, team shape, positioning, reading the game, set piece positions and keeping a high work rate. Full backs are dynamic positions, I'll grant you that - but the priorities for them in training shouldn't include finishing in my very amateur opinion.

[JAL]

Just now, Biz said:

It's different if you put it like that, but still I'd expect them to be working more on passing, tackling, fitness, team shape, positioning, reading the game, set piece positions and keeping a high work rate. Full backs are dynamic positions, I'll grant you that - but the priorities for them in training shouldn't include finishing in my very amateur opinion.

By doing so you are limiting your chances of winning. Equally the forwards should be able to defend.

[JBiz]

11 minutes ago, JAL said:

By doing so you are limiting your chances of winning. Equally the forwards should be able to defend.

I'm sure sacrificing time spent developing defensive shape for example, for a one touch and shoot warm up/exercises could potentially limit our chances of keeping clean sheets, and therefore winning?

I agree that attackers should defend, and some are brilliant at it - Jordan Rhodes was particularly able front post on defensive corners. 

[RevidgeBlue]

11 minutes ago, JAL said:

My understanding of what Gavlar was implying was that these well known full backs didn't score goals thus the reply.

We want Doyle to be another Le Saux.

No pressure then...........

If he's better than Williams he'll do won't he?

[Oldgregg86]

20 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Rovers were the attacking side all game and we started well but after we went 1 nil up we didnt keep the ball well enough and not convert our chances. We had enough in the game  

Boro were a defensive side and started 4-4-2 and after 10 mins went 4-1-4-1 and play on the counter. 4 shots 3 goals. 

Nuttall was quiet and the worst game ive seen him play. Rankin-Costello went quiet after his goal. Tomlinson and Hardcastle had ok games were good and poor points. 

Travis and Doyle were very good and got forward every opportunity and put in some good crosses in. 

Grayson kick out was a sending off and stupid to do but you can see why he did. 

The ref was rubbish and no idea of what he was doing. Boro number 5 was in the ref ear at every opportunity to put pressure on him and he cracked

Pretty fair and accurate assessment

[Stuart]

13 hours ago, Biz said:

I'm sure sacrificing time spent developing defensive shape for example, for a one touch and shoot warm up/exercises could potentially limit our chances of keeping clean sheets, and therefore winning?

I agree that attackers should defend, and some are brilliant at it - Jordan Rhodes was particularly able front post on defensive corners. 

Now, now. We all know Rhodes had NOTHING else to his game apart from tap-ins.

[Dreams of 1995]

20 hours ago, Biz said:

It's different if you put it like that, but still I'd expect them to be working more on passing, tackling, fitness, team shape, positioning, reading the game, set piece positions and keeping a high work rate. Full backs are dynamic positions, I'll grant you that - but the priorities for them in training shouldn't include finishing in my very amateur opinion.

Not only that but the ability to beat a man and rifle a shot on target in order to make the goalkeeper work is a basic requisite of a footballer, probably centre backs and goalkeepers aside. Although you'd still expect your centre back to be able to hit the target given an opportunity.

What you wouldn't do though is judge a defender on how often these outcomes bring success. I haven't seen Doyle or Travis play so couldn't say whether they've had many one-on-ones but I'd say they haven't. Not many full backs do and when they are faced with the prospect of shooting all forms of basic training say "shoot across the keeper". I wouldn't be expecting to see them perform some sort of David Beckham style whip into the top corner every time.

20 hours ago, JAL said:

 

20 goals is better than none dreams. 

When that time arrives and full back has a one v one situation the cross for me is out, you take him on, beat him and put it in the back of the net.

Then we are all better off !  If I'm coaching youngsters to keep crossing the ball and not finishing it, I'd feel I've failed as a coach.

 

20 goals in a lifetime career. These pair aren't even in the first team squad yet. Let's not judge them on a player like La Saux.

On average most of them players scored one goal a season - with the lowest average being a goal every 20 games. It just goes to show that the professional game doesn't judge full backs on their ability to score.

[JAL]

On 13/09/2017 at 13:44, Dreams of 1995 said:

Not only that but the ability to beat a man and rifle a shot on target in order to make the goalkeeper work is a basic requisite of a footballer, probably centre backs and goalkeepers aside. Although you'd still expect your centre back to be able to hit the target given an opportunity.

What you wouldn't do though is judge a defender on how often these outcomes bring success. I haven't seen Doyle or Travis play so couldn't say whether they've had many one-on-ones but I'd say they haven't. Not many full backs do and when they are faced with the prospect of shooting all forms of basic training say "shoot across the keeper". I wouldn't be expecting to see them perform some sort of David Beckham style whip into the top corner every time.

20 goals in a lifetime career. These pair aren't even in the first team squad yet. Let's not judge them on a player like La Saux.

On average most of them players scored one goal a season - with the lowest average being a goal every 20 games. It just goes to show that the professional game doesn't judge full backs on their ability to score.

For the team to gain a competitive edge I'm asking of the new full backs to be capable of weighing in with a couple of goals per season on top of their defensive duties otherwise why look like an identi kit of the opposition.

Edited September 14, 2017 by JAL

[Oldgregg86]

On 9/12/2017 at 17:09, JAL said:

 

20 goals is better than none dreams. 

When that time arrives and full back has a one v one situation the cross for me is out, you take him on, beat him and put it in the back of the net.

Then we are all better off !  If I'm coaching youngsters to keep crossing the ball and not finishing it, I'd feel I've failed as a coach.

 

Glad my kid ain't being " coached " by you 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Defenders need to know how to and focus on defending. Alberto Moreno a prime example. The guy should be playing left wing, not left back and it is costing Liverpool. If your full back is constantly getting in positions where he has the chance to go for goal, he is way out of position. The only time it's ok is if you are a team like Man City and you are playing some cannon fodder. 

[Mike E]

30 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Defenders need to know how to and focus on defending. Alberto Moreno a prime example. The guy should be playing left wing, not left back and it is costing Liverpool. If your full back is constantly getting in positions where he has the chance to go for goal, he is way out of position. The only time it's ok is if you are a team like Man City and you are playing some cannon fodder. 

Don't let JAL know about this!

[JacknOry]

Talking of goal-scoring leftbacks, a certain Roberto Carlos was a master at it. That John Arne Riise fellow used to bang a few in as well if i remember. Still, fully agree that goal-scoring should be the last thing on a full backs mind.

Just looked Carlos up on Wiki actually, according to them he scored 65 goals from 575 appearances.

Edited September 14, 2017 by JacknOry

[JAL]

8 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Defenders need to know how to and focus on defending. Alberto Moreno a prime example. The guy should be playing left wing, not left back and it is costing Liverpool. If your full back is constantly getting in positions where he has the chance to go for goal, he is way out of position. The only time it's ok is if you are a team like Man City and you are playing some cannon fodder. 

 

8 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Defenders need to know how to and focus on defending. Alberto Moreno a prime example. The guy should be playing left wing, not left back and it is costing Liverpool. If your full back is constantly getting in positions where he has the chance to go for goal, he is way out of position. The only time it's ok is if you are a team like Man City and you are playing some cannon fodder. 

If you've got control of the ball and have had the opportunity to develop your skill set further with the opportunity to score a goal then why not.

What you guys seem to be saying is that you want to kill that motion.

This is the Rovers development thread.

 

 

Edited September 14, 2017 by JAL

[Tom]

Apparently Premier League Huddersfield are set to close their academy and will just have an under 18 and under 23 team 

Presume they will just poach players from us little feeder clubs 

[Boroblue]

Nuttall scores header 1v0

[Boroblue]

Platt mistake 1v1

[Boroblue]

From today a draw was a fair result. Norwich right back samu was a country mile better than everyone else.

Rovers in terms of the game Travis was our best. In my opinion hardcastles sending off was harsh. Nuttall was ok but if you want first team ok is not good enough. Of the others mols played  well.

On a more general observation Mowbray questions the value of the academy and he may have a point. If we can't produce academy players good enough for league one  at what level are they good enough.

Is it better to pay more in wages for those who don't make the grade at the bigger clubs academy's rather than spend money on our own.

This is a general observation based on one game and is therefore of limited value but as parsonblue has said if we're not going to use them what's the point.

 

 

 

[Tom]

The problem would go very deep Boro.

As mentioned earlier there is talk that Huddersfield may shut their academy.

Our current place on the football totem is a way below them currently like it or not, if 'smaller' teams in the top league start doing that then the burden has to be on the lower leagues to nurture talent (which will then be cherry picked) or the standard of English football just drops and drops further.

Sad sad times