Academy & U21s

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, bluebruce said:

Do you? He's only 17 and has only just come over from Lithuania. Ripping it up at U-18s in a handful of games doesn't mean he's the next Messi. They're not looking to buy him for their first team, they're looking to take him for his potential obviously. This is what the big clubs do, they try to hoover up all the best young talent whilst they're still cheap.

I find it strange you want him to go straight to the first team after 4 (I believe) appearances for the U-18s. Surely the U-23s is the next logical step, even if only for a few games if he continues in the same vein at a higher level. We have a whole bunch of talented, more experienced players struggling to get in the side in the first team.

I do agree he would be best staying here though, the top 6 is a graveyard for young talent.

It sounds like he is a revelation. Phil Foden played for City at 17. Woodburn for Liverpool and Wales likewise. There are outliers to the norm of progression though the age groups. In my opinion if he is as good as reports, he is just as likely to do well for the senior team as the under 23s. He is less likely to leave us if involved with the 1st team as well. 

[darrenrover]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

It sounds like he is a revelation. Phil Foden played for City at 17. Woodburn for Liverpool and Wales likewise. There are outliers to the norm of progression though the age groups. In my opinion if he is as good as reports, he is just as likely to do well for the senior team as the under 23s. He is less likely to leave us if involved with the 1st team as well. 

I trust parsonblues' opinion: he watches both U23s and U18s regularly and has done for years. If he says he's nowhere near ready for the first team squad then that's good enough for me.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, darrenrover said:

I trust parsonblues' opinion: he watches both U23s and U18s regularly and has done for years. If he says he's nowhere near ready for the first team squad then that's good enough for me.

Ok  

[bluebruce]

35 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

It sounds like he is a revelation. Phil Foden played for City at 17. Woodburn for Liverpool and Wales likewise. There are outliers to the norm of progression though the age groups. In my opinion if he is as good as reports, he is just as likely to do well for the senior team as the under 23s. He is less likely to leave us if involved with the 1st team as well. 

Not necessarily. If he did well it would only raise his profile, potentially demonstrating he can already cut it in the Championship at 17, so maybe he will be cutting it quickly in the Prem. This would encourage the big clubs to throw more money at him. Young lads are easily swayed.

Anyway it's just one quote from an unnamed 'insider' about how good he is. Seems like he has made an excellent start, but Joe Nuttall was smashing in goals for fun at a higher level than Vilius (U-23s) and got the nod for a lower level (League One rather than Championship as it would be now) only to show that whilst goals were in his locker, not much else is yet and he still needs a lot of work.

Don't get me wrong, all sounds very promising if we can tie him down and he can recreate that form at U-23 next, but it's a little early to be so sure he is a revelation or potentially displace players like Palmer or Rothwell from the subs bench (depending what week it is).

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, bluebruce said:

Not necessarily. If he did well it would only raise his profile, potentially demonstrating he can already cut it in the Championship at 17, so maybe he will be cutting it quickly in the Prem. This would encourage the big clubs to throw more money at him. Young lads are easily swayed.

Anyway it's just one quote from an unnamed 'insider' about how good he is. Seems like he has made an excellent start, but Joe Nuttall was smashing in goals for fun at a higher level than Vilius (U-23s) and got the nod for a lower level (League One rather than Championship as it would be now) only to show that whilst goals were in his locker, not much else is yet and he still needs a lot of work.

Don't get me wrong, all sounds very promising if we can tie him down and he can recreate that form at U-23 next, but it's a little early to be so sure he is a revelation or potentially displace players like Palmer or Rothwell from the subs bench (depending what week it is).

Even if he played for us in the championship the top teams would still be signing him for their under 23 squads. They wouldn't be signing him to play first team. 

Valid points, but my main point is just that I think managers are overly cautious introducing younger players. It seems like 23 is the new 18

[bluebruce]

15 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Even if he played for us in the championship the top teams would still be signing him for their under 23 squads. They wouldn't be signing him to play first team. 

Valid points, but my main point is just that I think managers are overly cautious introducing younger players. It seems like 23 is the new 18

Of course they'd still be signing him for their under-23s or the bench at best. My point was, the better he does, the more money they will throw at him to make that happen, and young lads are easily influenced by a fat paycheck.

I agree managers are too cautious, and I feel TM is arguably more cautious than most. Promoting him to the first team already would be hasty though. The best balance lies in-between - seeing if he can replicate over 10 or so U-23 games, and if he can, starting to introduce him from the bench. If he's still doing the business, start the lad. But you do have to go through stages. Hopefully we don't go through them too slowly.

Jack Doyle seems a good example of too slowly. Was highly rated and has ended up being 22 in February and on loan at Maidstone. He'll never make it with us now. Operating too many levels below us for his age (and injured now too).

Edited November 13, 2018 by bluebruce

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, bluebruce said:

Of course they'd still be signing him for their under-23s or the bench at best. My point was, the better he does, the more money they will throw at him to make that happen, and young lads are easily influenced by a fat paycheck.

I agree managers are too cautious, and I feel TM is arguably more cautious than most. Promoting him to the first team already would be hasty though. The best balance lies in-between - seeing if he can replicate over 10 or so U-23 games, and if he can, starting to introduce him from the bench. If he's still doing the business, start the lad. But you do have to go through stages. Hopefully we don't go through them too slowly.

Jack Doyle seems a good example of too slowly. Was highly rated and has ended up being 22 in February and on loan at Maidstone. He'll never make it with us now. Operating too many levels below us for his age (and injured now too).

Ya, that's exactly what I was getting at. I would almost put Tomlinson and Travis in that category. Mahony when he was here too. 

I agree that Mowbray is more cautious than most in many ways, but he did sign the 17 from WBA last year thinking he was good enough to play a part. 

[blueboy3333]

3 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I find it strange that the top 6 clubs in England want to sign him, yet he isn't even good enough for a place on our first team bench. I stand by my comment that there is an overly cautious approach with young players these days. 

They want to sign him for their Academies. It doesn't follow that the teams in the league below will put him straight in the 1st team squad at 17yo.  The likes of Rooney are few and far between. He was a raging bull at 17. 

[Scotland1]

Anyone heard much about Callum wright who we flogged for a million in the summer to Leicester?

[bluebruce]

5 minutes ago, Scotland1 said:

Anyone heard much about Callum wright who we flogged for a million in the summer to Leicester?

I don't recall hearing what the fee was.

A google search just says undisclosed, and that he was sold in January...also, looks like he played 5 games for their U-23s last season, scoring none. This season, 4 games (but one only for 4 minutes) and 2 goals. From the pattern of his appearances, looks like he's either had injury niggles, or it's just tough to get into that Leicester U-23 team.

[G Somerset Rover]

Wright has been a regular for England under 18s and doing well for them, so sounds like he could be ‘one that got away’.

@Parsonblue what is Vilius like? Strengths etc from what you have seen?

Edited November 14, 2018 by Gavlar Somerset Rover!

[briansol]

9 hours ago, Scotland1 said:

Anyone heard much about Callum wright who we flogged for a million in the summer to Leicester?

 

9 hours ago, bluebruce said:

I don't recall hearing what the fee was.

A google search just says undisclosed, and that he was sold in January...also, looks like he played 5 games for their U-23s last season, scoring none. This season, 4 games (but one only for 4 minutes) and 2 goals. From the pattern of his appearances, looks like he's either had injury niggles, or it's just tough to get into that Leicester U-23 team.

I think he's head was turned refusing to sign a professional contract with us and Leicester is paying upwards to 1 mill for him (probably a lot of clauses). Very highly rated and a big blow to lose someone that young. 

[RV Blue]

What a pointless exercise loaning a player for our u18s is; he rips it up and we lose him, or he’s average and we sign an average player. I really don’t see what the best case scenario was with this deal (assuming the article above is true).

[Parsonblue]

17 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I find it strange that the top 6 clubs in England want to sign him, yet he isn't even good enough for a place on our first team bench. I stand by my comment that there is an overly cautious approach with young players these days. 

Anyway, if he is only going to be in the under 23s this season, he would be far better off staying here than going to a top 6 club. 

Those top 6 clubs are signing him to add to their academy/Under-23 squads not their first team.  Those clubs fills their ranks with young players who you never hear about again.

[Mattyblue]

Well you do....

’Todd Kane, 26, will spend the season on loan at Hull City’.

[darrenrover]

1 hour ago, RV Blue said:

What a pointless exercise loaning a player for our u18s is; he rips it up and we lose him, or he’s average and we sign an average player. I really don’t see what the best case scenario was with this deal (assuming the article above is true).

I would guess at 17/18 years of age it's the parents' heads and their agents' heads that 'get turned' and not the players.

For anyone that has watched our U18s and U23s, you only have to look at the young lads' cars in the car park at Brockhall to realise that even at Rovers, they are extremely well remunerated compared with their pears in 'real life'. Good advice would be to keep on learning at a club where you are a part and parcel of 'a dream', rather than move on now and be a bit part player, moved from pillar to post, albeit for a few extra quid now. What has Connor Mahoney, Junior Hoillet or Callum White achieved by moving on? For those that can remember far enough back: Franz Carr?

Very few seniors have improved seeking greener grass post Rovers, never mind juniors!

Tony had a dream!.........

Edited November 14, 2018 by darrenrover

[Mike E]

7 minutes ago, darrenrover said:

I would guess at 17/18 years of age it's the parents' heads and their agents' heads that 'get turned' and not the players.

For anyone that has watched our U18s and U23s, you only have to look at the young lads' cars in the car park at Brockhall to realise that even at Rovers, they are extremely well remunerated compared with their pears in 'real life'. Good advice would be to keep on learning at a club where you are a part and parcel of 'a dream', rather than move on now and be a bit part player, moved from pillar to post, albeit for a few extra quid now. What has Connor Mahoney, Junior Hoillet or Callum Whittle achieved by moving on? For those that can remember far enough back: Franz Carr?

Very few seniors have improved seeking greener grass post Rovers, never mind juniors!

Tony had a dream!.........

Esp' when our first team has a reasonable record of playing academy players.

Raya, Nyambe, Lenihan being the current obvious ones.

[hollowsr]

On 24/09/2018 at 18:49, RoversClitheroe said:

Anyone know what's happening with Louis Khoury? Fantastic talent

Thought I remembered someone asking about him, I've just seen he is now at Curzon Ashton, was released by Rovers, in his own words it didn't work out....

[Tom]

3-0 down at home to West Ham, tough learning this season for them 

 

edit - 3-1 now Nuttall penalty 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Tom

[G Somerset Rover]

5 minutes ago, Tom said:

3-0 down at home to West Ham, tough learning this season for them 

 

edit - 3-1 now Nuttall penalty 

Both the seniors and under 23s folding early doors like a deck of cards in the space of 48 hours!

[Stuart]

Dreadful night tonight. We only got the penalty after Mols was brought on. Very lacklustre and the midfield didn’t look interested in defending or getting stuck in. Lots of mistakes too. West Ham were lively but not great and we made them look brilliant.  We played like a team that was in the habit of losing. Bit of a tantrum from Magloire after he was subbed. Not much else to remark on.

[Stuart]

First half hat trick for Nuttall against Donny U23s.

Called it after his first goal. They can’t cope with him - or our speed of attack.

[oldjamfan1]

3 minutes ago, Stuart said:

First half hat trick for Nuttall against Donny U23s.

Called it after his first goal. They can’t cope with him - or our speed of attack.

Thanks again for the updates Stuart. Much appreciated mate 

[Stuart]

2 minutes ago, oldjamfan1 said:

Thanks again for the updates Stuart. Much appreciated mate 

It’s been a good half. Stefan (Mols) and Paton have been quick getting forward. Not a huge amount to do at the back. Can’t recall a single Donny shot. Nuttall looks like he’s enjoying his football again. Not exactly playing with a smile on his face but putting himself about.

Cross and tap-in, 1-0

Mols tripped, penalty, 2-0

Cross and header inside the box, 3-0

Mols has a chance to make it four on the stroke of half time but struck wide under pressure.

The rain has started lashing down too - could make for an interesting second half on a greasy surface. Glad for this corrugated tin roof!

[Stuart]

4-0. Guess who.

Cracker from the edge of the box!