[Archived] Til Debt Do Us Part - A Marriage of Inconvenience

[Stuart]

It would be very easy to say: I'll never move on. If someone else created this thread then I'd be one of the first to throw my hands up in frustration, but sooner or later, we are going to have to make a choice: to stick with the club or walk away. A lot of fans will be weighing this up at the end of the season.

Walking away is the 'easy' option (it's not really but you know what I mean - it requires the least investment) but if that is the choice then those people should probably give all things Rovers a rest for a while - including this messageboard.

So that leaves those who intend to stick around.

If Venkys are going to tough it out for another season then the chances are that Bowyer will be here too. So they'll have another couple of options: back Bowyer and balls to FFP - we'll keep the players we have (including Rhodes and Gestede) - and we'll get in loans and frees and hope for the best. Or they will commit to a programme of forcing the club to wash its own face. Selling any players of value to comply with FFP and... hope for the best. Either way it's a gamble.

From my perspective you'd think it would be in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound and they will keep the players and support the wage bill for another season - even if it means we remain under embargo. So they will probably do the opposite.

But whatever happens, the fans are going to have to sit through the car crash that is watching Rovers. Nothing we do or say will make a difference - last time it took interference by a Malaysian pundit to dislodge the trusty right hand man who the fans didn't have faith in (being kind) after we made little but loud complaints. There is no fight left now though, largely because there is no hate, as the manager this time around is just a 'decent guy' who 'cares about the club' and is 'doing his best' by 'giving it a good go'. So apathy reigns at the moment.

All that being said, is that the only reaction that fans are going to offer? Apathy? Should / can the fans do more to ignore the back story, to try to make the Ewood atmosphere more like an away game? Do we need to work with the club, and sacrifice our individual comfort zones in order to sit closer together and try to create such an atmosphere? To close the DE and make the opposite side of the BBE unrestricted seating? Something else?

Or are we going to spend the whole of next season yawning and/or complaining?

[matt83]

I think it'll pan out exactly the same yawning and moaning it'll be like a season of Groundhog Day.

I'm sure the vast majority can see and accept Bowyer is not good enough and the only real plus for him is that the venkys can't be trusted to appoint a proper manager. So nothing will be done and I'm sure we will just continue with rank average football, more often than not bowyer will pick a different team, make strange substitutions and carry on with his quest to avoid defeat rather than risk winning. We will then be subjected to platitudes about how we gave it a right good go never actuallyrealistically rising above midtable but will still have to put up with constant sound bites of how we are in the play off mix.

All the while the apologists will cite the fact we have ffp so what can we expect, he's still learning, he's not as bad as kean, who will come anyway, give him to xmas, then end of season, then xmas, etc.

As of now I'm thinking of binning off home games and just going away but when it comes to it I'll probably end up back at Ewood bored to tears. Can hardly wait.

[K-Hod]

Siege mentality for me. I know things are gash, but we may as well be loud!

[Stuart]

I think it'll pan out exactly the same yawning and moaning it'll be like a season of Groundhog Day.

I'm sure the vast majority can see and accept Bowyer is not good enough and the only real plus for him is that the venkys can't be trusted to appoint a proper manager. So nothing will be done and I'm sure we will just continue with rank average football, more often than not bowyer will pick a different team, make strange substitutions and carry on with his quest to avoid defeat rather than risk winning. We will then be subjected to platitudes about how we gave it a right good go never actuallyrealistically rising above midtable but will still have to put up with constant sound bites of how we are in the play off mix.

All the while the apologists will cite the fact we have ffp so what can we expect, he's still learning, he's not as bad as kean, who will come anyway, give him to xmas, then end of season, then xmas, etc.

As of now I'm thinking of binning off home games and just going away but when it comes to it I'll probably end up back at Ewood bored to tears. Can hardly wait.

Whilst I agree, it's all the safe stuff that we've discussed to death with no change. It's like banging your head against a brick wall. At some point you either stop doing it or find some other way to get through it.

Apathy is understandable but can we do anything to change how we react to what is on show? I quite like k-hod's seige mentality thing. We really need to get Bowyer beating that drum. If he can't muster up the energy to do that then we really are goosed.

[blueboy3333]

excellent post which will hopefully lead to a good discussion. I sit in the DE because i enjoy the participating in the match-day atmosphere but i think it's time everyone was moved back to the BBE. I realise this won't be popular with some but a packed BE with everyone singing is better than a small corner of the DE making all the noise. This means the BBE joining in but then more people are inclined to when people around them are singing. Create another singing section but this time on the BBE.

If the players aren't performing they need to be told, same with the manager, same with the owners. A packed BBE may focus their minds rather than a few dissipated grumblings around the ground.

Fair enough if people can't be arsed going anymore but don't keep going on about it on here. What's the point? Either get to the ground and make your feelings known or find another hobby and the forum that goes with it.

Me, i'll be on again next season getting behind the team or letting them know they're a disgrace to the shirt, whichever is applicable. Anger is an energy and all that.

[Exiled in Toronto]

A very good post Stuart. Without diminishing for a second the many reasons for dissatisfaction Venkys have foisted on the fans, there comes a point where the moaning becomes more detrimental to the people moaning, and those around them, than was the original problem.

I've noticed over the years that the "if this doesn't change then I'm done with the club" reasons seamlessly morph from one to another. At first it was Kean going, any other manager would be a step forward etc, and now we are at Bowyer's negative dull tactics via Agnew, Shebby and even, amazingly, the AWOL Communications Director. If people really can't stand it then perhaps it is time to walk away and leave the ones who can stand it to make the best of things.

If you went down to your local every night and there there was a regular there who was a good bloke but four years ago his wife had dumped him for his best friend, and every single night he went on about the injustice of it all, what a cow she was and a snake his friend was, would you still be putting your arm around him and buying him a consoling pint?

[Proudtobeblue&white]

Sadly you are pre-supposing there is a plan? My plan is to go to the last three home games as I've paid for them , see how we perform watch us in the replay, see how the summer pans out. I have to reluctantly accept the Loons as our owners. I can't plan anything myself as they wont tell us their intentions.....Kamy says they are prepared to pay the price of failure until the end of this season plus one, doesn't fill me with joy!

[matt83]

Whilst I agree, it's all the safe stuff that we've discussed to death with no change. It's like banging your head against a brick wall. At some point you either stop doing it or find some other way to get through it.

Apathy is understandable but can we do anything to change how we react to what is on show? I quite like k-hod's seige mentality thing. We really need to get Bowyer beating that drum. If he can't muster up the energy to do that then we really are goosed.

I know what your saying find something to do to shake people out of the apathy. But assuming you mean this has to be done with the same manager and owners then it'll be almost impossible.

But could get club to try 1 encouraging one bigger singing section in bbe, 2 get more bums on seats so ground doesn't look so pitifully empty by literally give tickets away maybe to schools, 3 all standing section to help with atmos, 4 get people @#/? with cheap beer. I really don't know what will make any real difference unless there's a manager everyone can believe in and get 100%. Would be nice for everyone to be on the same page again.

[Stuart]

I'm just a bit cheesed off by the misery of it all.

I can't control any of what is happening except how I react to it. Maybe it's time to react differently.

Crap owners, crap board, crap manager, underperforming players, terrible atmosphere.

One of those things we could possibly change - one fan at a time if necessary. Perhaps reach out to those fans around you, give them a wink and roll out the Lancashire self-deprecating, gallows humour:" it's crap but it's still our club - see you next game mate".

RTID not RTTGGT...

[47er]

I'll repeat what I've said many times going back to the days of Kean, if a match at Ewood Park was attended by no-one, the Raos would be gone as quickly as it could be arranged.

But it wasn't practical even at the height of Keandom and it isn't practical now because there is no consensus among fans.

Cue "I was here before Venkys and I'll be here when they have gone" or "no-one is going to drive me away from the club I've supported all my life".

Worthy sentiments of course but you really have to wonder whether there will be a club to support if affairs continue as they are.

A milder alternative is for all fans to miss the first quarter of an hour and the game to start in eerie silence apart from 200 away supporters.It could be ramped up gradually and would gain enormous publicity and put the spotlight, not on Bowyer or the players, but where it matters---on the owners.

Its all about short-term pain and embarassing Venkys into leaving ie long-term gain.

If nothing is done, increasing feelings of antagonism and alienation will empty the ground anyway and we will just fade away.

[JBiz]

First year my family have even considered it not bothering. I'm certainly getting one but I've missed so many games since the West Ham at home game back back back in the day (think Jones got injured) which evidenced the damage that sacking Sam had/would eventually do.

I've likely missed 5 or more games this season that I've paid for only 1 or 2 genuine reasons, rest being underwhelmed, no buzz, apathy (yet the radio/rovers player/ SSN/BRFCC inevitably get switched on)

I still will not give up my seat though, even if I'm not sitting in it. They've taken so much away from the experience by idiotic decision making- but they ain't taking my seat. 22 years in a row, and a hell of a lot of happy memories!

They'd have to shut the place.

Cue "I was here before Venkys and I'll be here when they have gone" or "no-one is going to drive me away from the club I've supported all my life".

... with timing like that.

[Exiled in Toronto]

If they weren't embarrassed by Kean, his slimy agent and the programme editor running the show then a bit more space in an already two thirds empty ground won't do anything, not that a mechanism exists for such a plan to be implemented anyway.

While the pain is real, mid table in the championship and a home quarter final isn't the stuff of revolution.

[47er]

As I said JB!

If they weren't embarrassed by Kean, his slimy agent and the programme editor running the show then a bit more space in an already two thirds empty ground won't do anything, not that a mechanism exists for such a plan to be implemented anyway.

While the pain is real, mid table in the championship and a home quarter final isn't the stuff of revolution.

No, its the stuff of acceptance. There was no "mechanism" to force the truth to come out about Hillsborough either, the fans made it happen.

[Exiled in Toronto]

As I said JB!

No, its the stuff of acceptance. There was no "mechanism" to force the truth to come out about Hillsborough either, the fans made it happen.

So get on with it then. Right now it seems to be everyone else's fault.

And yes, 96 people dying and Bowyer's boring tactics are totally comparable

[47er]

I came up with an idea. You come up with one!

I'll dismiss yours out of hand and we'll just carry on in the same old way eh!

We can dance to the end of time!

[JBiz]

As I said!

Problem is though- either of us could argue that our respective position is more likely to stimulate some kind of respond- vocal in the ground or voting with the feet.

The reality is much more depressing. Self preservation at Ewood masks any discontent, from the decision makers on the other side of planet.

Even stopping buying stuff from the club like season tickets etc, they've shown no real public remorse or reaction to being fleeced- or made appropriate changes to rectify further mistakes.

Anything fans can do seems negligible.

[Exiled in Toronto]

I came up with an idea. You come up with one!

I'll dismiss yours out of hand and we'll just carry on in the same old way eh!

We can dance to the end of time!

I don't need to, four years down the line I'm not as upset as you. Back to Stuart's original and very good post, maybe it's time to pee or get off the pot because carrying on in the same old way doesn't seem to be achieving much.

[gumboots]

I'm just a bit cheesed off by the misery of it all.

I can't control any of what is happening except how I react to it. Maybe it's time to react differently.

Crap owners, crap board, crap manager, underperforming players, terrible atmosphere.

One of those things we could possibly change - one fan at a time if necessary. Perhaps reach out to those fans around you, give them a wink and roll out the Lancashire self-deprecating, gallows humour:" it's crap but it's still our club - see you next game mate".

RTID not RTTGGT...

Problem is Stuart, I start every game I go to trying to be positive and I've never missed a home game I could go to all season. However, when did we start a game well and sustain that for the whole of the half. So often we play so depressingly poorly that all enthusiasm drains out of you by the end of the first half hour and you know you have another hour of the same incompetence to tolerate before you go home. Is it any wonder that apathy and misery set in? It's not intentional. I don't go determined to be miserable. I go to enjoy myself win lose or draw. But even wins are depressing, they are so miserably won. I do talk to the guy next to me. There is a cameraderie in shared misery that might not be there in happier times. Is it enough to change my mind about renewing my season ticket? I doubt it.

[Paul]

We really need to get Bowyer beating that drum. If he can't muster up the energy to do that then we really are goosed.

First and truly important point. The fans are not to blame, never were and never will be.

There are four problems; the Raos, the debt, the manager and the team. The manager generates no enthusiasm amongst the fans and, apparently, the players who collectively, and Bowyer signed them, are not good enough. With what we have we will not challenge for promotion - that has been obvious to me for 12-15 months.

I hesitate to say any of this as I know what will come my way later.

I can't help but feel these threads are the opportunity for people to continue to work out their own feelings. It's cathartic. I've no problem with that, I don't find it very interesting because for me it's become very repetitive simply because the situation doesn't change. It can't change.

For me? Well I accepted the situation a long time ago. I can't remember exactly when but probably early 2014. I can't change it, I don't like it but I'm not going to ruin my enjoyment of Rovers bleeding over it. We will renew and I will continue to go to the majority of games - I admit if my lad doesn't want to go, which midweek he sometimes doesn't, I might chose to do something else. Usually cycle training if it's a Tuesday match.

I read about the need for action but for a for long time no one has attempted to organise anything and to be frank stop talking and start acting. I'm not criticising anyone on this, I'm not going to organise anything so I'm certainly in no position to do so.

For me the only remaining potential action is mass boycott, either of entire matches or the first 10-15 minutes. I would join in but I doubt the remaining majority would. I'd say at least 90%, if not many more, who sit round me would do nothing. They never moan and when I get on my feet and shout heads turn. One fan hurling abuse at the pitch last week was told to "show some respect" by others sitting by him.

I do not believe I'm apathetic, I know my passion for Rovers is the same, but I do know one has to be realistic. There was a point when I moved on and felt much better for it. If or when the opportunity arises to make a difference, to have an impact, I will join in but until then I'll enjoy the moments when they come along.

For me this works. Everyone else will find their own solution and I'm sure lots more threads like this will endlessly make the same points.

I criticise no one I just found I feel better for accepting I can't change anything and continuing to worry about it has only one outcome - I feel angry and sh1tty. Life is too short so I just found the acceptance and feel much better for it.

Looking forward to the next game.

[K-Hod]

A very good post by the way Stuart, and sums up my thoughts nicely. I think I heard Leeds fans on tv a while back singing -we're sh1t, and we're sick of it!'. Also a good summary of how most are feeling I'd say!!

Another point as well, for those talking about an empty Ewood being the best way, I'm sure that would be and would have been spun against us, just like everything else.
'Rubbish fans', 'don't deserve a football club, and not supporting your players' etc etc.

[gumboots]

It's not the being rubbish that hurts. It's the fact that nobody seems to be trying to stop our being rubbish or make us even marginally less rubbish. Rubbish teams across the country people sing that they are the greatest team when they know they are nothing like it. However, they feel part of the set up, valued and feel like it matters to somebody that their team, even though it comes up short every time, plays as well as it can for them. It's the detached feeling that means that people are leaving. Same old tripe with nothing done to change things and no chance that anything will change. I accepted it a long time ago but I don't have to go and watch it, or at least, I don't have to pay in advance to be bored to death, ignored and let down. I can choose the times in a year when I might need a bit of extra sleep and go then

[47er]

Problem is though- either of us could argue that our respective position is more likely to stimulate some kind of respond- vocal in the ground or voting with the feet.

The reality is much more depressing. Self preservation at Ewood masks any discontent, from the decision makers on the other side of planet.

Even stopping buying stuff from the club like season tickets etc, they've shown no real public remorse or reaction to being fleeced- or made appropriate changes to rectify further mistakes.

Anything fans can do seems negligible.

Well I said any action requires a united fanbase. We haven't got one so we will do nothing together.

Individually though, even more fans will stop going and you know that's true

[Mike Graham]

I sometimes feel we are being exploited at worse or taken for granted at best just by turning up. A few fans at a time, week in and week out are saying enough is enough. I will not be getting a ST next season and I know very few others if any who are bothering to do so.

My choice is a culmination of many issues: buying a holiday home; GB and his utter useless leadership; the management team; the ownership; and the dross being played for 95% of our games. Never mind the being taken for granted feeling.

I will go on Ewood for the odd game and I will always be a big big fan. It is just I will it be going every week and I have more important things in life to spend my hard earned £££ on.

[majorstyre]

ive been a season ticket holder now for 37 ish seasons...

to me, this is as bad as it has ever been....

why, i dont know..!..is it because i am older, perhaps the apathy that is surrounding the place is cutting into me, do i just not care the same any more?

its difficult, and for that reason, i would never give criticism to anybody for how they feel they wish to deal with it

it grinds me to see players, who have the talent, not using it and just going through the motions at times...

it grinds me to hear a manager, who fails to criticize his players when all around can see under performing

it grinds me we have a club that from top to bottom in the "corridors of power" are only interested in feathering their own nest, or just dont give two hoots

however - do i come again next season?

do i renew as i do every summer?

probably....

i enjoy the good moments as much as i have ever done

its a perverse sort of sado-masochistic pleasure perhaps...

just remind me of this when next winter we are still grinding out the same old tat

;-)

[47er]

I don't need to, four years down the line I'm not as upset as you. Back to Stuart's original and very good post, maybe it's time to pee or get off the pot because carrying on in the same old way doesn't seem to be achieving much.

OK you're not as upset as I am, you haven't got any ideas yourself, you don't need any. Fine by me.