[Archived] The General Election 2015

[thenodrog]

Indeed so SKH.

The cuts to benefits are a small %age affecting a minority yet a downturn in sections of the economy or a change in the world situation can turn profit into loss for many businesses. Who cares about them? An example is that sanctions placed on Russia over the Ukraine have been met with counter sanctions by Russia on the eu. Putin has banned imports of many agricultural products. Farmers and Livestock farmers in particular as well as support industries have seen their entire profits wiped out and many businesses will close as a result. Should there be a change in the situation they will be gone and certainly wont start production again. The country will have to import expensive food or starve. Food prices will invariably rise and as food is essential to survival this will hit everybody in the land.

No one mentioned that at the last Election though did they?

[Gav]

What gets me is that we still have anti-austerity protests going on. Absolutely baffling, do these people want us to end up like Greece? Either we pay back what we owe or sooner or later we suffer total currency collapse.

The basic problem is the public sector aren't willing to go through the same hard times the private sector went through 6-7 years ago. And thanks to having vastly more powerful Unions they don't necessarily have to. Well good luck to them but personally I'm not voting for any party (i.e. Corbyn's Labour) that indulges this short-sighted self preservation.

It's about time government policy focused on generating money, rather than just manically spending it. Which means huge support for business and necessary spending cuts.

Hard times in the private sector don't make me laugh!

The public sector has been decimated by cuts with well over 1 million people having lost their jobs and still more to come, services cut to the point where delivery is impossible and who does that hit the most?

The Tories borrowed more in the last parliament than Labour did in 13yrs of power, saddling the country with more debt yet cutting benefits for the poorest in society. Yet they ran a campaign of further Labour borrowing and higher taxes, sad thing is people fell for it and they continue to borrow at massive levels.

As for the Northern powerhouse, another lie that people fell for, will people ever learn.

[thenodrog]

Hard times in the private sector don't make me laugh!

Well if that's always the case gave then you must be terminal head case not to work in the private sector. Anyway don't you know it's only the Private sector that pays for the Public sector?

[Gav]

Well if that's always the case gave then you must be terminal head case not to work in the private sector. Anyway don't you know it's only the Private sector that pays for the Public sector?

Thing is Gordon I like to think I'm giving something back, the public sector gives me that platform.

Having worked in the private sector also, I found it's more about shafting the boss and earning more than your colleagues, that's not not the place for me.

[jim mk2]

If we judge ideological austerity by what the Tories claim the objective was (getting the national debt under control), then it's been a spectacular failure, but if we judge ideological austerity by what others claimed the objective was (transferring as much wealth as possible from the majority to the super-rich minority) then it's been a resounding success.

The problem isn't that the Tories are economically illiterate, it is that the majority of their supporters are. If you earn well over £150,000 per year it might serve your selfish self-interest to support the Tories, but if you're an ordinary person with an ordinary income, you're a gullible and economically illiterate fool if you support the Tories and cheerlead for even more austerity.

[Mike E]

If we judge ideological austerity by what the Tories claim the objective was (getting the national debt under control), then it's been a spectacular failure, but if we judge ideological austerity by what others claimed the objective was (transferring as much wealth as possible from the majority to the super-rich minority) then it's been a resounding success.

The problem isn't that the Tories are economically illiterate, it is that the majority of their supporters are. If you earn well over £150,000 per year it might serve your selfish self-interest to support the Tories, but if you're an ordinary person with an ordinary income, you're a gullible and economically illiterate fool if you support the Tories and cheerlead for even more austerity.

I think you mis-say what you mean. Surely any reasonable person should be PRO-austerity in our economic circumstances? The difference is in how it's done.

It should be done with a much more fair spread of taxation across income levels.

[Baz]

I think you mis-say what you mean. Surely any reasonable person should be PRO-austerity in our economic circumstances? The difference is in how it's done.

It should be done with a much more fair spread of taxation across income levels.

Why should a 'reasonable' person be pro-Austerity?

There's plenty of economists who say it doesn't work, including Keynes.

He says that you tighten your belt when the economy is performing well, making cuts when it isnt leads to slowed recovery, higher unemployment and an increase in debt, and affects lower and middle income households harder than higher.

A reasonable person would realise there's more than one method of achieving the goal.

[Mike E]

Why should a 'reasonable' person be pro-Austerity?

There's plenty of economists who say it doesn't work, including Keynes.

He says that you tighten your belt when the economy is performing well, making cuts when it isnt leads to slowed recovery, higher unemployment and an increase in debt, and affects lower and middle income households harder than higher.

A reasonable person would realise there's more than one method of achieving the goal.

When in debt, spend less and save more. When doing well, allow a little more spending but keep saving too. That's my understanding of austerity.

It's what every right-minded person does when money is tight imo. I still live at home, so anything I earn goes 25% to parents, 25% to bank, 50% spending money. Anything remaining as payday approaches also goes to the bank.

I can't get my head around how spending more = quicker recover unless handled extremely carefully. Something I don't believe any of our current MPS are capable of.

[jim mk2]

Equating the government and the country's finances to that of a family or a corner shop is nonsensical.

I'm sure people can think of more reasons why but you only have to look at the nature of currencies, legislative power, taxes, interest rates, bonds, inflation, taxes, investment and spending and how they all interact to realise that the idea the nation can be run in the same way as a family budget is economically illiterate.

Here'a nice cartoon to illustrate the point.

http://moderndebtjubilee.blogspot.co.uk/2015/08/treating-economy-like-household-budget.html

[ultrablue]

There's one proven way out of recession - the government borrows and spends spends spends on public infrastructure.

[Baz]

When in debt, spend less and save more. When doing well, allow a little more spending but keep saving too. That's my understanding of austerity.

It's what every right-minded person does when money is tight imo. I still live at home, so anything I earn goes 25% to parents, 25% to bank, 50% spending money. Anything remaining as payday approaches also goes to the bank.

I can't get my head around how spending more = quicker recover unless handled extremely carefully. Something I don't believe any of our current MPS are capable of.

Your understanding of austerity is wrong then.

[Gav]

There's one proven way out of recession - the government borrows and spends spends spends on public infrastructure.

What the Tories doing, borrowing at massive levels and decimating public services and infrastructure.

[Mike E]

Your understanding of austerity is wrong then.

That may well be the case tbh. Begs the question why it isn't made clear if I'm supposedly allowed to vote on it.

Care to clarify?

[Baz]

Have a look at austerity on Wikipedia for a start Mike.

Austerity by cutting services in order to reduce your budget deficit has evidence of slowing economic growth. Keynes argues that (whilst you shouldn't go and start trying to spend your way out of the situation) the key is to grow your economy above running a deficit, and then pay back the deficit at a time when you have the spare economic capacity.

So in relation to your household budget scenario....if you owed your parents £1000, and lost your job would you try to defer paying them back until you got a new job, or keep paying them even if it meant you didn't have enough money to eat (assuming they where ok to wait - like an economy)?

There is obviously no harm in cutting wasted money from any budget, but there's no need to cut essential services.

You'd think with the dumbing-down media coverage and that the choice is either austerity or spending, in reality it's not.

[Mike E]

Have a look at austerity on Wikipedia for a start Mike.

Austerity by cutting services in order to reduce your budget deficit has evidence of slowing economic growth. Keynes argues that (whilst you shouldn't go and start trying to spend your way out of the situation) the key is to grow your economy above running a deficit, and then pay back the deficit at a time when you have the spare economic capacity.

So in relation to your household budget scenario....if you owed your parents £1000, and lost your job would you try to defer paying them back until you got a new job, or keep paying them even if it meant you didn't have enough money to eat (assuming they where ok to wait - like an economy)?

There is obviously no harm in cutting wasted money from any budget, but there's no need to cut essential services.

You'd think with the dumbing-down media coverage and that the choice is either austerity or spending, in reality it's not.

Funnily enough I do owe them money and have no income just yet (supply teaching from next week onwards). I continue to pay them back a smaller amount out of my savings until I have income again, all the while I'm spending money on nothing but my contributions to the family shopping. Then I'll pay them back more fully when I do have income again.

[Baz]

Funnily enough I do owe them money and have no income just yet (supply teaching from next week onwards). I continue to pay them back a smaller amount out of my savings until I have income again, all the while I'm spending money on nothing but my contributions to the family shopping. Then I'll pay them back more fully when I do have income again.

I'll put you down as anti-austerity then.

[thenodrog]

Thing is Gordon I like to think I'm giving something back, the public sector gives me that platform.

making Paper aeroplanes and linking paper clips together all day doesn't do it for me im afraid gav.

[Mike E]

I'll put you down as anti-austerity then.

I always thought austerity WAS belt-tightening etc. I'll look into it more.

[Gav]

making Paper aeroplanes and linking paper clips together all day doesn't do it for me im afraid gav.

Just another example of you speak with great authority about something you know nothing about.

Watched the Labour leadership candidates argue their way through and avoid the questions on C4 tonight, Corbyn aside they're clones of each other.

I dislike Andy Burnham more and more by each passing day, he talks over people and shows a genuine lack of respect for me, just power hungry and the other 2 aren't much better.

Give Corbyn a go as leader, let's face it he can't do any worse than the rest of them.

[Baz]

Give Corbyn a go as leader, let's face it he can't do any worse than the rest of them.

Don't be so sure GAV. I doubt he'll do much other than be good for the left wing side of the labour party, and lose a lot of the centre ground. I'm disappointed in the other candidates to be honest, there's nothing electable between them.

Without being ageist, Corbyn is 66 now, so will be 71 at the next election, and if elected 76 by the end of that term - that will increasingly be on the agenda toward the next election. You know the vote Corbyn get xxx headlines now.

[Gav]

As I said he can't do any worse than Ed, Brown or those 3 three running for leader.

The party needs a shake up, Corbyn gives Labour just that, but I agree he's no chance of being prime minister, but neither have the rest of them.

Give him a go I say.

[ABBEY]

I won't be voting for him .

[Gav]

I won't be voting for him .

The very fact I'm supporting him for leader says exactly what state the Labour party finds itself in pal.

As long as people keep falling for Tory lies about Northern Powerhouses and the country being full of scroungers Labour will remain in opposition anyway so voting in Corbyn won't make a difference really.

[Al]

The very fact I'm supporting him for leader says exactly what state the Labour party finds itself in pal.

As long as people keep falling for Tory lies about Northern Powerhouses and the country being full of scroungers Labour will remain in opposition anyway so voting in Corbyn won't make a difference really.

The Tory Party don't need to tell me that the country is full of scroungers. I see them every day in Accrington Centre.

[jim mk2]

It's amazing and truly wonderful insight how a few people in Accrington become a "country full of scroungers". The rantings of a bigot and the facts are distant relations.