[Archived] The General Election 2015

[Gav]

Bunkum,

It was it was Jim McColl that saved it, at the expense of Portsmouth I might add

Who got Jim McColl involved in the bidding process, the Scottish Government, they put saving Ferguson shipyard at the top of the agenda, even considered nationalising it at one stage.

[Biddy]

Name calling does you no favours Biddy.

Labour aren't in power, so the point you made was irrelevant, the Tories are in power and my point was a fact, i can tell lies if you like?

As for the Scottish government and the ship yards, nobody asked me to back it up did they? but its not hard to see the part that the Scottish government played in saving those jobs/industry, just google it.

And now point out where I called you names. I think you'll find I didn't.

And yes, I did ask you about the Scottish government saving the shipyards yesterday as I said I couldn't find anything. The only thing I found was on a Scottish education site saying Heath saved 2 shipyards back in the day and they are now owned by BAE.

Oh and that wasn't a request for evidence sake, I was actually interested after I read other bits.

[BiggusLaddus]

Steel dumping is illegal, thats exactly what China are doing.

Yes it is. The EU were informed about it in the middle of last year and it took them a full 12 months to decide that it was happening. The WTO might (might) decide to look into it, but if they do it will take them years to rule on. Even then China might refuse to accept the findings.

Whether China is trading illegally or not is irrelevant to the people working in the mills if we can't stop it.

And on the other side as has been said, the company I work for makes things out of steel. We have benifitted massively from the low steel price and we employ nearly as many people as Caparo.

[Biddy]

Who got Jim McColl involved in the bidding process, the Scottish Government, they put saving Ferguson shipyard at the top of the agenda, even considered nationalising it at one stage.

So the Scottish Government "Saved" the shipyward by introducing a private investor. That's a tiny bit different to demanding a government bails out businesses.

Looks like people weren't happy with the Scottish Government when Ferguson went into administration

http://forargyll.com/?p=87465

Actually really good reading so I'm pleased the topic came up.

[yoda]

Who got Jim McColl involved in the bidding process, the Scottish Government, they put saving Ferguson shipyard at the top of the agenda, even considered nationalising it at one stage.

By Scottish government I assume you mean the SNP, they are making a complete mess of running Scotland, they couldn't afford to nationalise anything in Scotland try googling their record on a whole range of subjects. Sturgeon needs outing on her's and the SNP record, how Labour lost out to those charlatans is a joke.

How do you feel about subsidising the Jock's GAV ? http://beta.scotsman.com/news/uk/public-spending-per-head-in-scotland-revealed-1-3197170

SNP and the NHS http://www.scotsman.com/news/health/patients-at-risk-as-gps-are-starved-of-funding-1-3191201#axzz3pERzt1sJ

SNP and education http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13193890.New_Scottish_curriculum__confused__over_content/

SNP economics http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2015/10/rudderless-hegemony

SNP and jobs http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/45m-eu-job-fund-frozen-after-government-blunders-1-3865802#axzz3pERzt1sJ

SNP and infrastructure https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/inverness/532177/critical-audit-report-branded-an-embarrassment-to-highland-council/

The list goes on and on

[yoda]

A balanced view on the steel industry

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34595475

[Gav]

When the future of ship building on the Cylde was threatened the Scottish Government came out fighting, the rhetoric was to save the industry, and they'd not rule out nationalising the industry if that's what it took. It was front page news and they found a buy and job were saved.

In contrast Cameron promised in 2011, after warnings from the unions, to help the steel industry reform and pledged 30m for a variety of reforms that never materialized. That 30m is now being used to pay redundancy, what a bloody insult to the thousands of people that have been let down.

So whilst the Scottish Government fought for the shipbuilders and won, Cameron says sorry we can't do anything about it, **** you!

[yoda]

When the future of ship building on the Cylde was threatened the Scottish Government came out fighting, the rhetoric was to save the industry, and they'd not rule out nationalising the industry if that's what it took. It was front page news and they found a buy and job were saved.

In contrast Cameron promised in 2011, after warnings from the unions, to help the steel industry reform and pledged 30m for a variety of reforms that never materialized. That 30m is now being used to pay redundancy, what a bloody insult to the thousands of people that have been let down.

So whilst the Scottish Government fought for the shipbuilders and won, Cameron says sorry we can't do anything about it, **** you!

Yes Jim

[Baz]

If the Tories really wanted to address this, they should be going to the EU and asking for a temporary cessation of not being able to subsidise the steel works, given the current situation. That seems to be one of the key reasons why they cannot do much at present.

He should also be lobbying China to sign up to green policies, as their carbon usage trend is catastrophic, and yet is one of the reasons why they are able to undercut their rivals.

[Biddy]

When the future of ship building on the Cylde was threatened the Scottish Government came out fighting, the rhetoric was to save the industry, and they'd not rule out nationalising the industry if that's what it took. It was front page news and they found a buy and job were saved.

In contrast Cameron promised in 2011, after warnings from the unions, to help the steel industry reform and pledged 30m for a variety of reforms that never materialized. That 30m is now being used to pay redundancy, what a bloody insult to the thousands of people that have been let down.

So whilst the Scottish Government fought for the shipbuilders and won, Cameron says sorry we can't do anything about it, **** you!

So you didn't read my link http://forargyll.com/?p=87465

and a new one I've found http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13175144.Unions_accuse_SNP_over_jobs_loss_at_shipyard_failure/

Looks like the SNP weren't exactly fighting really hard prior to administration! It's easy to spin things though when the buyer comes and suddenly they hail themselves the heroes. All politicians do it.

[Gav]

Both Alex Salmond and John Swinney the finance secretary said that saving Ferguson shipyard was an absolute priority, they came out fighting.

So if we take things back to basics and just go off those comments alone.

Have you heard Cameron and Sajid Javid coming out with the same Rhetoric?

In fact Cameron said in PMQ's yesterday it wasn't the governments position to get involved, but we're ok because Javids getting together a 'working group' or was a few weeks ago, since then Caparo has announced 1200 job losses, he's just incompetent.

You can't build a Northern Powerhouse without a steel industry.

[Rover-the-Top]

You make a very valid and reasonable point, but surely we should be looking for British steel to support British business if at all possible?

Well, I guess that's the angle a UKIPer would take. I'd be more concerned with doing what has the greatest net benefit for the country. If there is a reason to save the steel industry, it would be that we may need our own supply at a future date. But then there's plenty of other things that we rely on imports for. Is it really that essential to have a British steel industry when it can't afford a British workforce?

[RibbleValleyRover]

Well, I guess that's the angle a UKIPer would take. I'd be more concerned with doing what has the greatest net benefit for the country. If there is a reason to save the steel industry, it would be that we may need our own supply at a future date. But then there's plenty of other things that we rely on imports for. Is it really that essential to have a British steel industry when it can't afford a British workforce?

It's definitely a tricky situation to be in. There doesn't appear to be a fix really, someone is going to end up losing.

I think you make a good point about the whole importing steel thing. A lot of businesses in this country rely on cheaper Steel, if they are forced to use the more expensive steel then some of these businesses could suffer. So you could save the British Steel industry but end up destroying a load of manufacturing industries when companies are forced to cut costs or perhaps move abroad.

[Biddy]

It's all well and good importing steel as it is cheap, but GAV makes a good point earlier that China will eventually start hiking their prices again, probably once other major Steel manufacturers are gone and they are left with no competition.

In the long run that will be bad for other British businesses needing the Steel with only one supplier.

[yoda]

Both Alex Salmond and John Swinney the finance secretary said that saving Ferguson shipyard was an absolute priority, they came out fighting.

So if we take things back to basics and just go off those comments alone.

Have you heard Cameron and Sajid Javid coming out with the same Rhetoric?

In fact Cameron said in PMQ's yesterday it wasn't the governments position to get involved, but we're ok because Javids getting together a 'working group' or was a few weeks ago, since then Caparo has announced 1200 job losses, he's just incompetent.

You can't build a Northern Powerhouse without a steel industry.

Why not and has a Northern powerhouse got anything to do with Scotland ?

[Gav]

Why not and has a Northern powerhouse got anything to do with Scotland ?

The Northern Powerhouse has nothing to do with the North! its just Tory nonsense, empty promises designed to get votes from Northerners that don't know any better.

[Rover-the-Top]

The Northern Powerhouse has nothing to do with the North! its just Tory nonsense, empty promises designed to get votes from Northerners that don't know any better.

Is that like how the SNP and the new Labour leadership promise "anti-austerity" to get votes from people that don't know any better?

[K-Hod]

Austerity in anything other than its current guise is ok.

It's just currently, it means 'we won't bother chasing our wealthy brothers and sisters who we know are taking the proverbial and not paying the correct amount of tax, BUT, we will chase some of the most vulnerable in society and deny them money they need to survive. What we'll also do, is convince the world via the printed press and television programmes that 'dole dossers' are the problem, despite tax evasion costing the country way more than benefit fraud.'

[Gav]

Is that like how the SNP and the new Labour leadership promise "anti-austerity" to get votes from people that don't know any better?

Austerity is all well and good, but having a blanket policy of hitting the poorest people in society is disgusting, hitting people for going out to work? How can that be right?

Camerons never had a real job, never had to save up for a mortgage,and it shows because he's telling us they're creating starter homes at £250k outside London how many young families in Blackburn are looking at starter homes at 250k!

The next insult is forcing the sale of social housing, we've already got massive waiting lists due to shortages in stock, where are people that need social housing going to live when these are sold off? In 250k starter homes? Some people are rely on food banks FFS.

Disgusting, it really p1sses me off, the woman on question time last week was typical of what happening under those Etononian ****s.

http://youtu.be/cwfoP0DshgQ

[Steve Moss]

If the Tories really wanted to address this, they should be going to the EU and asking for a temporary cessation of not being able to subsidise the steel works, given the current situation. That seems to be one of the key reasons why they cannot do much at present.

He should also be lobbying China to sign up to green policies, as their carbon usage trend is catastrophic, and yet is one of the reasons why they are able to undercut their rivals.

It's all well and good importing steel as it is cheap, but GAV makes a good point earlier that China will eventually start hiking their prices again, probably once other major Steel manufacturers are gone and they are left with no competition.

In the long run that will be bad for other British businesses needing the Steel with only one supplier.

I agree with most of this. But subsidizing is not the way to go. If games are being played by foreign corporations to drive domestic businesses out of business, followed by a steady increase in price for the foreign product, then I think either embargoes or, at least, tariffs are the way to go. Same effect but doesn't create a government expense which in itself will take resources to maintain, likely at the expense of other worthy programs.

[yoda]

It's not all down to China selling cheap steel

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34595475

[Baz]

I agree with most of this. But subsidizing is not the way to go. If games are being played by foreign corporations to drive domestic businesses out of business, followed by a steady increase in price for the foreign product, then I think either embargoes or, at least, tariffs are the way to go. Same effect but doesn't create a government expense which in itself will take resources to maintain, likely at the expense of other worthy programs.

Maybe you are right. Subsidising feels wrong, but its a case of keeping the plants running until the market returns. I think theres merit in running the plants in a non-profit manner and getting them to produce the steel needed for HS2, whats the cost to the local community and economy of 1,000s directly, 10,000s indirectly losing jobs over a 5 year period?

[Rover-the-Top]

Austerity is all well and good, but having a blanket policy of hitting the poorest people in society is disgusting, hitting people for going out to work? How can that be right?

I don't think either side is being entirely truthful on the matter. For starters, Labour's manifesto for the general election promised to reintroduce the 10% tax rate and start taxing minimum wage workers again. They're not coming from a strong point to criticise any policy that hurts the lowest paid. The Tories are right to point out they're also raising pay rates and the tax free allowance, but it's hard to believe they'll cancel out the tax credit cuts in every case. But then the opposition only seem to talk about the cuts and aren't acknowledging that the changes will be good for at least some people. That's politics, I guess. It's all point scoring because any method of reducing the nation's borrowing is likely to filter down to affecting those with the least. But then ignoring the problem won't make it go away.

[Gav]

Get off the fence Rover the top.

Tax credit cuts are a disgrace, it's an assault on the poor, cutting tax and raising pay is a smokescreen that impacts on the few.

The Tories are supposed to be the party of getting people back into work, once they're in work they're taking away their benefits, it's as simple as that and forces those hard workers back on to benefits and the settee.

Very calculated, theyve taken the p1ss out of the electorate, far to many fell for it.

[yoda]

Get off the fence Rover the top.

Tax credit cuts are a disgrace, it's an assault on the poor, cutting tax and raising pay is a smokescreen that impacts on the few.

The Tories are supposed to be the party of getting people back into work, once they're in work they're taking away their benefits, it's as simple as that and forces those hard workers back on to benefits and the settee.

Very calculated, theyve taken the p1ss out of the electorate, far to many fell for it.

The bit in bold, Is that not the correct thing to do ?

Where it goes wrong is in your following point, better off on benefits.

Getting benefits for doing nothing is wrong in principle. I would change it so that you have to do something to get benefits.