[Archived] The General Election 2015

[jim mk2]

Pensions, economy and banks

It's posts like that which make you look silly.

I will ask you the question that only one poster has attempted to answer

Has Labour ever left government with the economy in a better state than when they entered government?

You wanted an answer so here it is.

Only two Labour governments have ever left office leaving the national debt higher than it was when they came to power, all of the others have lowered the national debt as a percentage of GDP.

On the two occasions that Labour oversaw increases in the national debt there were the mitigating circumstances of huge global financial crises. The Ramsay MacDonald government of 1929-31 coincided with the Wall Street Crash (they left a 12 per cent increase in the debt to GDP ratio), and the Blair-Brown government of 1997-2010 coincided with the 2008 worldwide financial crisis (an 11 per cent increase).

The other Labour governments all reduced the scale of the national debt. Clement Attlee's 1945-51 govt reduced the national debt by 40 per cent despite having to rebuild the economy after the ravages of the Second World War.

Harold Wilson's 1964-70 government reduced the national debt by 27% of GDP and the Wilson-Callaghan government of 1974-79 managed to reduce the debt by 4% of GDP.

The majority of Labour governments have therefore ended up reducing the national debt, and the two that didn't coincided with the biggest global financial crisis of the 20th century and the biggest global financial crisis so far in the 21st century.

By contrast, in his first 3 years as chancellor George Osborne managed to add more to the national debt than the Labour party did in the 13 preceding years. In fact, in just 4 years Osborne has increased the national debt in real terms more than every Labour party chancellor in history combined.

So there you have it.

[Mike E]

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it people will come to believe it - Joseph Goebbels

Heed that quote yourself, Jim. Yoda's question still hasn't been answered by any Labour voter on this board.

Now you have. 'As a percentage of GDP'? What about the actual debt numbers rather than %ages? £100 is £100. I'm surely a tune of billions is the same.

That being said, I'll not be voting Tory at all in this election as they too have increased the debt (or is it the deficit)? Ugh ruddy politics. If only they all actually used plain English like Farage (and in fairness, Miliband and Sturgeon too).

[yoda]

It's posts like that which make you look silly.

You wanted an answer so here it is.

Only two Labour governments have ever left office leaving the national debt higher than it was when they came to power, all of the others have lowered the national debt as a percentage of GDP.

On the two occasions that Labour oversaw increases in the national debt there were the mitigating circumstances of huge global financial crises. The Ramsay MacDonald government of 1929-31 coincided with the Wall Street Crash (they left a 12 per cent increase in the debt to GDP ratio), and the Blair-Brown government of 1997-2010 coincided with the 2008 worldwide financial crisis (an 11 per cent increase).

The other Labour governments all reduced the scale of the national debt. Clement Attlee's 1945-51 govt reduced the national debt by 40 per cent despite having to rebuild the economy after the ravages of the Second World War.

Harold Wilson's 1964-70 government reduced the national debt by 27% of GDP and the Wilson-Callaghan government of 1974-79 managed to reduce the debt by 4% of GDP.

The majority of Labour governments have therefore ended up reducing the national debt, and the two that didn't coincided with the biggest global financial crisis of the 20th century and the biggest global financial crisis so far in the 21st century.

By contrast, in his first 3 years as chancellor George Osborne managed to add more to the national debt than the Labour party did in the 13 preceding years. In fact, in just 4 years Osborne has increased the national debt in real terms more than every Labour party chancellor in history combined.

So there you have it.

Don't believe you Jim, you will have to produce some back up for that

[Biddy]

If you think £3m houses are wrong blame governments that have promoted economic activity in London and the south east at the expense of the north.

Tony Blair won 3 successive elections and kept the Tories out of Downing St for 13 wonderful years. He can do what he likes as far as I'm concerned.

Blimey, answering the first point with your second. Nice one

[yoda]

It's posts like that which make you look silly.

You wanted an answer so here it is.

Only two Labour governments have ever left office leaving the national debt higher than it was when they came to power, all of the others have lowered the national debt as a percentage of GDP.

On the two occasions that Labour oversaw increases in the national debt there were the mitigating circumstances of huge global financial crises. The Ramsay MacDonald government of 1929-31 coincided with the Wall Street Crash (they left a 12 per cent increase in the debt to GDP ratio), and the Blair-Brown government of 1997-2010 coincided with the 2008 worldwide financial crisis (an 11 per cent increase).

The other Labour governments all reduced the scale of the national debt. Clement Attlee's 1945-51 govt reduced the national debt by 40 per cent despite having to rebuild the economy after the ravages of the Second World War.

Harold Wilson's 1964-70 government reduced the national debt by 27% of GDP and the Wilson-Callaghan government of 1974-79 managed to reduce the debt by 4% of GDP.

The majority of Labour governments have therefore ended up reducing the national debt, and the two that didn't coincided with the biggest global financial crisis of the 20th century and the biggest global financial crisis so far in the 21st century.

By contrast, in his first 3 years as chancellor George Osborne managed to add more to the national debt than the Labour party did in the 13 preceding years. In fact, in just 4 years Osborne has increased the national debt in real terms more than every Labour party chancellor in history combined.

So there you have it.

In bold, only through your red tinted glasses Jim,

Who gave that crew the right to highjack the red rose anyway

[jim mk2]

Don't believe you Jim, you will have to produce some back up for that

It's all freely available - if you care to look. Your problem (and others, see above) is that it doesn't matter what the evidence says as a typical political tribalist you aren't remotely interested in searching out the evidence. All you require is a simple narrative that confirms your prejudices (Gordon's a typical example here) that allows you to go around thinking you are an expert when in fact you know next to nothing. Unless you can do much better this is our final correspondence.

[yoda]

It's all freely available - if you care to look. Your problem (and others, see above) is that it doesn't matter what the evidence says as a typical political tribalist you aren't remotely interested in searching out the evidence. All you require is a simple narrative that confirms your prejudices (Gordon's a typical example here) that allows you to go around thinking you are an expert when in fact you know next to nothing. Unless you can do much better this is our final correspondence.

I am no expert Jim, I do know that every time Labour has left government in my working life I have been worse off, as has the country.

Gordon Brown inherited a good economy from Tory Blair and then blew it.

You can increase taxes all you want but it is not the answer (HSBC today) you have to live with your means not borrow and spend willy nilly,

Alien concept for the so called socialist that you claim to represent,

I wish I could afford to be socialist

[ultrablue]

That being said, I'll not be voting Tory at all in this election as they too have increased the debt (or is it the deficit)? Ugh ruddy politics. If only they all actually used plain English like Farage (and in fairness, Miliband and Sturgeon too).

Well if you run a deficit (spend more than you bring in) you add to your overall national debt. The debt has gone up and will keep going up, but the deficit has come down. The figures for the last year show that Osbourne et al. brought the deficit (borrowing) down from 98 billion to around 87 billion pounds for the last year, that's just under 5% of GDP.

The reason the % of gdp matters is a deficit of 87 billion is less of a problem to a country that is growing and producing more and more. 100 pounds to the UK is not 100 pounds to Malawi. The UK grew by 2.8% last year. That's pretty healthy. Running huge deficits when you aren't growing, as was the case in Japan, that's when the problems start.

All in all the macro-economic figures are looking alright. Reducing the budget deficit is a worthwhile goal, but the Tories have to be careful they don't go too far with spending cuts, otherwise the allegations they are cutting for purely ideological reasons may alienate more and more voters.

http://m.ft.com/cms/s/0/5ad0ff66-e994-11e4-a687-00144feab7de.html

[Andyblue2]

I feel there's a real shift in tone towards this SNP/Labour potential coalition. I think the majority of the little englanders will move to conservative to get SNP away from a sniff. Sturgeon would have milliband on toast constantly with Alex Salmond lurking in the shadows.

Conservatives will take this I think.

[Mike Graham]

Well I voted last week (postal vote, all 26 of them in Tower Hamlets......only joking btw).

I live in the Chorley constituency which is a marginal and Tory target. We received our first and only leaflet onThursday which was for the Labour chap who supports Bolton.

[Gav]

Seems inevitable that the weaker Miliband will leap into bed with the SNP (despite his protestations) then we'll need another Conservative government to clean up the mess again.

Sturgeon will push for independence again and I hope they bloody get it.

Careful with Goebbels, Ed's Dad was called Adolphe !

You should ask your fellow Scouse friends about the Tories and leaving a mess, Thatcher set about destroying Merseyside and the place is still trying to recovering!

All this other stuff about labour/snp is the most hypocritical sh1te I've read in a long time from a desperate Tory party, the very party that jumped into be with the liberals and will also jump into bed with UKIP if given half a chance.

[thenodrog]

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it people will come to believe it - Joseph Goebbels

Exactly. And that applies to you more than anybody that I can readily think of on here. Nail on head Jim.

[Gav]

'We' being those in the public sector I take it? Isn't it time you got off the nipple gav?

btw haven't events since and the 75 million pound fortune that he has amassed since leaving office not suggested that Blair just used his position to feather his own nest? Why not write to Blair now Gav and see if he'll fill up your food bank's larder? Pretty sure he could do all this on his own and never even miss it. Go on... he's a good socialist I'm sure.

I was a private sector worker during the Blairs years and to be honest I couldn't careless what he's worth now Gordon, all your mates in the blue side of the house with their moats and duck houses aren't exactly penniless.

[Mike Graham]

I remember showing some French journalists around Liverpool in the 80's. They were astounded at the deprivation wrought on the City by Thatcher.

I also drove !Michael Heseltine around Liverpool 8 in the early hours of the morning when we were working with the CBI and churches to ensure a positive legacy after Militant were run out of the City (yes the hard left were as bad as the Tories). Heseltine got the issues, he was visibly shocked, and vowed to help.....he followed through with that promise and we have been friends ever since.

[ABBEY]

You should ask your fellow Scouse friends about the Tories and leaving a mess, Thatcher set about destroying Merseyside THE WORKING CLASS and the place is still trying to recovering!

All this other stuff about labour/snp is the most hypocritical sh1te I've read in a long time from a desperate Tory party, the very party that jumped into be with the liberals and will also jump into bed with UKIP if given half a chance.

[Gav]

I form my own opinions GAV not a newspaper's. GAV the dollopers friend.

Your own opinions are something out of the dark ages if you think everyone on benefits is a 'dolloper' Al.

[thenodrog]

You should ask your fellow Scouse friends about the Tories and leaving a mess, Thatcher set about destroying Merseyside and the place is still trying to recovering!

All this other stuff about labour/snp is the most hypocritical sh1te I've read in a long time from a desperate Tory party, the very party that jumped into be with the liberals and will also jump into bed with UKIP if given half a chance.

The Trident issue transcends base politics. The SNP are truly playing with fire. No doubt it might allow for a few more tins of beans and packs of custard creams in your totally unecessary food banks introduced on the back of political agenda rather than need, but hypothetically given a vote in this election which party do you think Putin would vote for? Consider that issue and all but the terminally stupid will have their answer.

[Gav]

I will ask you the question that only one poster has attempted to answer

Has Labour ever left government with the economy in a better state than when they entered government?

I answered this yesterday but in not sure what real benefit anyone gains from it.

The Tories have increased the debt massively this parliament, far more than Labour did, so if anyone thinks they're possibly leaving office with the garden smelling of roses they're living on another planet.

The economy, we're told, is doing well, but we all know that's down in the south not up here, people are really struggling to get by in the North due to cuts in local government and a general Tory I couldnt care less attitude that's been going on since that bitch was running the show.

They're going to lose power and not a minute to so I hope.

[thenodrog]

I was a private sector worker during the Blairs years and to be honest I couldn't careless what he's worth now Gordon, all your mates in the blue side of the house with their moats and duck houses aren't exactly penniless.

You obviously only bring your socialist principles out when it suits. How are you getting on with that letter to Bliar? Had a reply yet?

[Gav]

The Trident issue transcends base politics. The SNP are truly playing with fire. No doubt it might allow for a few more tins of beans and packs of custard creams in your totally unecessary food banks introduced on the back of political agenda rather than need, but hypothetically given a vote in this election which party do you think Putin would vote for? Consider that issue and all but the terminally stupid will have their answer.

Trident won't be compromised If labour gets in, simple as that. Your mate Cameron has decimated our army to worrying levels, that's the way to deter Isis and other such groups isn't it Gordon.....

As for poking fun at food banks again, just shows what an arse you are at times, typical out of touch Tory enjoying his I'm All right Jack existence, but not to much I'd imagine after Moshin Issa built his development just down the road, any luck selling your house yet white flights in full swing in that area I've noticed.

You obviously only bring your socialist principles out when it suits. How are you getting on with that letter to Bliar? Had a reply yet?

Me a socialist! Brilliant!

[thenodrog]

I remember showing some French journalists around Liverpool in the 80's. They were astounded at the deprivation wrought on the City by Thatcher.

"The only constant in life is change"

PB you conveniently only choose to tell half a tale. You must remember that Liverpools status as a major port for this country reduced dramatically as a consequence of Britains entry into the Common Market (EU) a few years earlier. Our trade with the EU increased massively just as our trade with the rest of the world reduced and as a result our east Coast ports rose in importance. What sort of sense and at what sort of cost would it have been to put all our new european trade through the port of Liverpool situated on the wrong side of the British Isle?

[thenodrog]

I answered this yesterday but in not sure what real benefit anyone gains from it.

The Tories have increased the debt massively this parliament, far more than Labour did, so if anyone thinks they're possibly leaving office with the garden smelling of roses they're living on another planet.

The economy, we're told, is doing well, but we all know that's down in the south not up here, people are really struggling to get by in the North due to cuts in local government and a general Tory I couldnt care less attitude that's been going on since that bitch was running the show.

They're going to lose power and not a minute to so I hope.

An issue which I have some sympathy for and which has been and is being addressed by the Tories currently. 'Northern powerhouse' ring any bells? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-31942291

BUT if you truly believe what you have written then all you have to do is to get on your bike. The SE is about 3 hours away by rail or road and there are people from all over the world (where starvation really does exist) desperate to get there and frequently by illegal methods. There is nothing at all stopping you and yours from benefitting by sharing that wealth...... except of course your own bleeding heart.

[Al]

Unpaid taxes of £39 billion isn't a laughing matter.

This is not unpaid tax it is tax legally avoided. Only fools pay tax they don't need to especially to aid the workshy.

[jim mk2]

Exactly. And that applies to you more than anybody that I can readily think of on here. Nail on head Jim.

The facts and figures I have provided over the years on here to disprove your falllacious arguments (and yoda's) are all correct.

It's not me spinning lies Gordon because I've done the research.

[Al]

UKIP is a party full of racists, bigots and homophobes. They are a bunch of sharlatans who are intent on scaremongering people into submission. They clearly have an audience. Thankfully it is a small one.

That is a complete lie made up by UKIP opponents. Keep on repeating it does not make it true. UKIP is the only party that makes complete sense but Conservatives come close. Labour and SNP will once again ruin the country.