[Archived] The General Election 2015

[K-Hod]

Genuine working families rely on welfare to survive as we all know, the Tories don't care, hit the poorest in society but leave the Tory party hedge funders alone and the tax loopholes for the rich.

Yet people voted this party in! Why?

A combination of people falling for the media rhetoric about everything, Labour's poor leadership and a complete lack of faith in Ed Milliband if I had to guess.....

To be fair, you can hardly blame then in a way. Either way, by the time the next election rolls around, we'll see how they feel then, of course that will be too late!

[Biddy]

Genuine working families rely on welfare to survive as we all know

honest question, what is a "genuine working family"? and why to they "rely" on welfare?

Is that welfare the working tax credit? If a government was bold enough to bring in a "living wage" would people then be happy for working tax credits to be scrapped or would there still be moaning that welfare is cut?

but leave the Tory party hedge funders alone and the tax loopholes for the rich.

Fully agree with that, these should not be allowed to continue. Although as you say, can't see much action on this in the next 4 years unfortunately.

I've also provided many links from independent sources showing the facts about the deficit and Labour's spending record.

Independent sources? - Guardian links? honestly, do better than that.

[thenodrog]

It isn't how much they're worth that matters, it's where they divert our cash to that matters. I see Osbourne has brought forward the budget because he's desperate to start on cutting welfare by massive amounts.

Quite right. tbh why would anybody in their right minds vote for someone who isn't successful?

Osborne has brought the budget forward for all manner of reasons den. Be honest you are guilty of cherry picking to suit your agenda. Anyway it was dealt with here....... http://www.brfcc.com/mb/index.php/topic/30413-the-general-election-2015/?p=1534438

[thenodrog]

Genuine working families rely on welfare to survive as we all know, the Tories don't care, hit the poorest in society but leave the Tory party hedge funders alone and the tax loopholes for the rich.

What a load of complete rubbish! You are employing tired old 1970's socialist rhetoric. I've posed the question of defining the working class but no one seems able to proffer one. Everyone in my family works, and I'm sure most on here work. Every MP works, every member of the CBI works as no doubt does every member of a trades Union. Alan Sugar and Phillip Green work, David Cameron works, Nicola Sturgeon works, people in supermarkets work, the bloke who runs the chippy, off licence, grocers, pub works, taxi / lorry / bus / train drivers all work etc etc. I don't rely on any benefits as I'm sure the vast majority of working people don't. I might be wrong but I'd wager most welfare benefits go to people who don't work. As for "survive" GRIEF! Plenty of evidence suggests that the growth curve of both child and adult obesity is steeper in the poorer people than in the wealthier sections of society. How does that figure with your continued reference for the need of ever more food banks?

I suggest that you need to start again gav.....

Genuine working families rely on welfare to survive as we all know, the Tories don't care, hit the poorest in society but leave the Tory party hedge funders alone and the tax loopholes for the rich.

Yet people voted this party in! Why?

Better look in a Mirror if you feel that way Gav. By your own admission you didn't vote Labour did you?

honest question, what is a "genuine working family"? and why to they "rely" on welfare?

I've asked many people that question many times without a response. I even noted that Tristram Hunt use the term of QT last week. Shame Dimbelby or anybody else didn't ask him for his definition.

[K-Hod]

There shouldn't be any difference between the minimum wage and a living wage. How can the minimum someone be paid be less than what they can survive on?

Insane.

[den]

Quite right. tbh why would anybody in their right minds vote for someone who isn't successful? [/size]

[/size]

Osborne has brought the budget forward for all manner of reasons den. Be honest you are guilty of cherry picking to suit your agenda. Anyway it was dealt with here....... [/size]http://www.brfcc.com/mb/index.php/topic/30413-the-general-election-2015/?p=1534438

I think if they abolished welfare completely Gord, you would think it "quite right". No?

[Biddy]

There shouldn't be any difference between the minimum wage and a living wage. How can the minimum someone be paid be less than what they can survive on?

Insane.

Indeed, I agree. But as I ask earlier, if the 2 were linked, should Working Tax Credit be abolished? If not, why not?

[thenodrog]

There shouldn't be any difference between the minimum wage and a living wage. How can the minimum someone be paid be less than what they can survive on?

Insane.

No it isn't. Who decides for a start? Some have a more extravagant lifestyle than others. Some live in expensive areas and others in inexpensive areas.

Ever heard the term 'you cut your coat according to the cloth'?

I think if they abolished welfare completely Gord, you would think it "quite right". No?

You are cherry picking one issue again den. C'mon you are better than that, keep a proper perspective and don't lower yourself to the embittered, illogical stance taken by others on here.

tbh I'm sure we need welfare, I'm equally sure that we need welfare reform. I'm not totally convinced that we need the minimum wage and I really have no idea what a 'living wage' is.

[K-Hod]

No it isn't. Who decides for a start? Some have a more extravagant lifestyle than others. Some live in expensive areas and others in inexpensive areas.

Ever heard the term 'you cut your coat according to the cloth'?

Of course you should live within your means, that's common sense. But if people are barely receiving enough money to feed themselves/pay the rent/mortgage then that's hardly right is it?

I'm fortunate enough for that not to be applicable, but there are many who really do struggle. The 'working poor' isn't a term that should even exist, but it does.

[thenodrog]

Of course you should live within your means, that's common sense. But if people are barely receiving enough money to feed themselves/pay the rent/mortgage then that's hardly right is it?

I'm fortunate enough for that not to be applicable, but there are many who really do struggle. The 'working poor' isn't a term that should even exist, but it does.

So anybody can overstretch themselves on a mortgage and the rest of the taxpaying public have to subsidise them?

So anybody can choose to limit their hours of work or refuse overtime and the rest of the taxpaying public have to subsidise them?

Put reasons to abuse the system in place and some people will abuse the system. We've ALL seen that for at least two generations now.

btw re: your last sentence. Lets imagine a scenario where everybody doubles their wages. There will still be people qualifying as 'working poor' at the bottom of the pile. The term 'Poor' is both an abstract and a relative concept is it not?

[K-Hod]

So anybody can overstretch themselves on a mortgage and the rest of the taxpaying public have to subsidise them?

So anybody can choose to limit their hours of work or refuse overtime and the rest of the taxpaying public have to subsidise them?

Put reasons to abuse the system in place and some people will abuse the system. We've ALL seen that for at least two generations now.

Not sure how you plucked that from anything I said, but that's certainly not what I said! Common sense and a general concept of mathematics dictates not having more going out than coming in, and a 'rainy day fund', I can't remember the stats about how many people in Britain didn't have any savings, but it was fairly alarming!

The second part of what you said is right, and there needs to be some welfare reform.

[thenodrog]

Not sure how you plucked that from anything I said, but that's certainly not what I said!

You are joking I take it?

You said........ "But if people are barely receiving enough money to feed themselves/pay the rent/mortgage then that's hardly right is it?"

If I've bought a million and a half pound house in London (topically as Ed Miliband has) on a mortgage and I'm struggling to pay the repayments. So should the taxpayer subsidise me or should I downsize?

Should I shop at Aldi or waitrose?

Your argument is full of holes K-Hod and imo completely unworkable.

Not only that but if someone is on the min wage or even a living wage or even paying 40% and they want to earn more and improve their lifestyle then look in the papers and get another job! What the hell could be wrong with that?

[K-Hod]

You are joking I take it?

You said........ "But if people are barely receiving enough money to feed themselves/pay the rent/mortgage then that's hardly right is it?"

If I've bought a million and a half pound house in London (topically as Ed Miliband has) on a mortgage and I'm struggling to pay the repayments. So should the taxpayer subsidise me or should I downsize?

Should I shop at Aldi or waitrose?

Your argument is full of holes K-Hod and imo completely unworkable.

Not only that but if someone is on the min wage or even a living wage or even paying 40% and they want to earn more and improve their lifestyle then look in the papers and get another job! What the hell could be wrong with that?

.

[Gav]

honest question, what is a "genuine working family"? and why to they "rely" on welfare?

Is that welfare the working tax credit? If a government was bold enough to bring in a "living wage" would people then be happy for working tax credits to be scrapped or would there still be moaning that welfare is cut?

.

A genuine working family is a family with 1 or both parents working. Let's deal with those to avoid the usual suspects throwing out lines from the daily mail. Now in my line of work I've come across hundreds of working families that rely on working tax credit for instance to survive. This is because these people would rather work than live on benefits but take up poorly paid jobs, Gideon is probably going to slash this benefit in some shape way or form, hitting the poorest in society.

Gideon is also intent on cutting child benefit for families with more than 3 kids and would like to stop it altogether. That would save him 300m out of the 5-12bn he intends to cut from the welfare budget, where's the rest being cut from?

That cut alone is against the poorest in society and it's only the start.

[jim mk2]

Independent sources? - Guardian links? honestly, do better than that.

IFS, Mervyn King Sir Nicholas Macpherson - if you know who they are. Just about as independent as you can get.

Some stories in the Guardian but they were based on quotes from all of the above.

If you're going to criticise me you'll have to do better than that.

Another article today from an independent source on the financial crisis and austerity agenda.

It's been shown over and over again that the Labour deficit blame story is a lie. Labour's failure to refute it is their biggest mistake over the past 5 years.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/david-blanchflower/david-blanchflower-labour-is-being-far-too-reticent-it-didnt-cause-the-global-financial-crisis-and-coalition-austerity-policies-have-stalled-the-recovery-10158888.html

[Biddy]

IFS, Mervyn King Sir Nicholas Macpherson - if you know who they are. Just about as independent as you can get.

Some stories in the Guardian but they were based on quotes from all of the above.

If you're going to criticise me you'll have to do better than that.

Another article today from an independent source on the financial crisis and austerity agenda.

It's been shown over and over again that the Labour deficit blame story is a lie. Labour's failure to refute it is their biggest mistake over the past 5 years.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/david-blanchflower/david-blanchflower-labour-is-being-far-too-reticent-it-didnt-cause-the-global-financial-crisis-and-coalition-austerity-policies-have-stalled-the-recovery-10158888.html

I was only questioning your sources as you only ever appear to link to Guardian articles and they themselves are not very independent. Unfortunately, all original sources quoted can be taken out of context and shaped to however the article writer desires. The same independent source can and is often used in alternative view points with other agendas.

That Independent article is a perfect case in point that NO ONE is truly "Independent". Article is written by David Blanchflower "David Graham Blanchflower CBE (born March 2, 1952) is a leading labour economist" - So he's impartial then.

[yoda]

IFS, Mervyn King Sir Nicholas Macpherson - if you know who they are. Just about as independent as you can get.

Some stories in the Guardian but they were based on quotes from all of the above.

If you're going to criticise me you'll have to do better than that.

Another article today from an independent source on the financial crisis and austerity agenda.

It's been shown over and over again that the Labour deficit blame story is a lie. Labour's failure to refute it is their biggest mistake over the past 5 years.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/david-blanchflower/david-blanchflower-labour-is-being-far-too-reticent-it-didnt-cause-the-global-financial-crisis-and-coalition-austerity-policies-have-stalled-the-recovery-10158888.html

The graphs all show an upward trend Jim,

Also the article was written before the election, would David Blanchflower write it in the same vein now the election has passed.

There are a lot of assumptions in the article too about austerity and the effects less austerity would have had. It would also seem to contradict what has happened in the rest of the EU were in the main (Greece being the exception) lower austerity measures have not produced recovery in the same percentage figures as the UK, so it is really an article based on assumption rather than hard facts.

[Biddy]

A genuine working family is a family with 1 or both parents working. Let's deal with those to avoid the usual suspects throwing out lines from the daily mail. Now in my line of work I've come across hundreds of working families that rely on working tax credit for instance to survive. This is because these people would rather work than live on benefits but take up poorly paid jobs, Gideon is probably going to slash this benefit in some shape way or form, hitting the poorest in society.

Gideon is also intent on cutting child benefit for families with more than 3 kids and would like to stop it altogether. That would save him 300m out of the 5-12bn he intends to cut from the welfare budget, where's the rest being cut from?

That cut alone is against the poorest in society and it's only the start.

So your definition is VERY broad then. Going by your definition, I am a "genuine working family" however I do no rely on welfare or tax credits. I would suggest that the VAST majority of working families do not rely on welfare (as theno has previously said). So how do we categorise the people that actually need welfare? "Genuine Working Family" does not cut it.

[Gav]

So your definition is VERY broad then. Going by your definition, I am a "genuine working family" however I do no rely on welfare or tax credits. I would suggest that the VAST majority of working families do not rely on welfare (as theno has previously said). So how do we categorise the people that actually need welfare? "Genuine Working Family" does not cut it.

Well you can believe Gordon, who I can assure you has never worked with these types of families, or you can believe me who has been working with them for 10yrs+

I've also worked with people like yourself who earn enough money to support themselves without need for tax credits.

It's not 1 size fits all for a variety of reasons.

[Al]

It's not true, facts simply don't back you up Al.

You mean the facts according to Jim and GAV's little red book?

A combination of people falling for the media rhetoric about everything, Labour's poor leadership and a complete lack of faith in Ed Milliband if I had to guess.....

To be fair, you can hardly blame then in a way. Either way, by the time the next election rolls around, we'll see how they feel then, of course that will be too late!

If Scotland repeat their votes for the SNP there will never be another Labour Government. They rely on Scotland to vote Labour.

[jim mk2]

I was only questioning your sources as you only ever appear to link to Guardian articles and they themselves are not very independent. Unfortunately, all original sources quoted can be taken out of context and shaped to however the article writer desires. The same independent source can and is often used in alternative view points with other agendas.

That Independent article is a perfect case in point that NO ONE is truly "Independent". Article is written by David Blanchflower "David Graham Blanchflower CBE (born March 2, 1952) is a leading labour economist" - So he's impartial then.

The quotes from Mervyn King, MacPherson and the IFS study were widely reported in the other nationals including right wing ones. Like the Guardian, none were taken out of context and were all reported correctly.

These people and the IFS are all independent. Blanchflower's is an opinion piece but is based on many of the same facts.

[Al]

Not independent then. I'm not interested in your cherry picked quotes from socialists Jim. State your own case or shut up. Not that it matters, you lost the election you know.

[thenodrog]

A genuine working family is a family with 1 or both parents working. Let's deal with those to avoid the usual suspects throwing out lines from the daily mail. Now in my line of work I've come across hundreds of working families that rely on working tax credit for instance to survive. This is because these people would rather work than live on benefits but take up poorly paid jobs, Gideon is probably going to slash this benefit in some shape way or form, hitting the poorest in society.

Gideon is also intent on cutting child benefit for families with more than 3 kids and would like to stop it altogether. That would save him 300m out of the 5-12bn he intends to cut from the welfare budget, where's the rest being cut from?

That cut alone is against the poorest in society and it's only the start.

Quite right too. Dunno about you Gav but being able to bring your own kids without help is about pride imo. Anybody who can't do so and still continues to breed is irresponsible. I could have had half a dozen kids or more if someone else was going to pay the bills, we all could. I do accept at this point that some people unfortunately do lose their jobs for all manner of reasons and many unforeseen too but for too many breeding does provide a free lunch. Anyway anymore than 2 isn't good for civilisation imo.

btw Why do you call George Osborne Gideon? Is he known by his middle name to his family and friends? Or is it that you are simply attempting some sort of a @#/? take?

.......... Labour's failure to refute it is their biggest mistake over the past 5 years.

Funny that most considered opinion is that it was letting the left wing unions pick Little Ed over brother David.

[thenodrog]

So your definition is VERY broad then. Going by your definition, I am a "genuine working family" however I do no rely on welfare or tax credits. I would suggest that the VAST majority of working families do not rely on welfare (as theno has previously said). So how do we categorise the people that actually need welfare? "Genuine Working Family" does not cut it.

Posh and Becks and Wayne and Colleen being working families then by gav's definition.

Well you can believe Gordon, who I can assure you has never worked with these types of families, or you can believe me who has been working with them for 10yrs+

You said..........."A genuine working family is a family with 1 or both parents working. " I can assure you that I have worked with 'these type of families' as you put it on a daily basis AND for three times the amount of time that you have.

[Gav]

The original point is concerning the Tories punishing the working classes, the poorest in society, whilst leaving hedge funds and tax loopholes alone, it's a disgrace.

It's no concern of mine how many kids people have, sadly due to wage freezes and zero hours contracts people are finding it hard to make ends meet, cut child benefit and working tax credit and these are the next ones queueing at the food banks.

As for George, he was called Gideon until he changed his name to George.