[Archived] The General Election 2015

[thenodrog]

I know many people that rely on working tax credit to survive, these are people with low paid full time jobs, beats sitting at home wasting away on full benefits doesn't it?

These are good honest people that want to work, don't get paid very well, and need working tax credit, would you rather them just pack in working and go on full benefits?

Of course you wouldn't so they're in the equation.

One could have said that about those two in my example gav. Given a necessary prod and they managed quite nicely.

[Mike E]

Nobody seems to have mentioned benefit claimants as being part of the working classes. At some stage during your working life as a member of the working classes youll be lucky not to have to call on benefits to help you get by and nothing wrong with that.

Plenty of good honest hard working families rely on working tax credit to subsidise their incomes, the Tories are going to cut this benefit from 26k to 23k I believe.

I don't understand the working tax credit so forgive me if this seems obtuse. If I've read that correctly, a household could be subsidised to the tune of £23k? Who the hell needs to be given an additional £23k?

My parents earn about that between them! How do they get hold of the extra?

[ABBEY]

http://www.accringtonobserver.co.uk/news/rishton-post-office-worker-restrained-9401381

Ive been here nearly 9 years now and its getting worse by the day. The post office has been done twice in the last 6 months, Dannis nails (the wife's mate ) got done over last month, the cafe on the bridge (top bloke) got done over last week, houses getiing robbed whilst people are in, the daughters bike got nicked , there was a stabbing in the Wam last month , the lanloe=rd got attacked last week and theres lots more.

It needs policing but even more tory police cuts are going to make it heller than it is now.

[Steve Moss]

I think, off the cuff, that people fall into three classifications:

Working person- Anyone whose primary income is derived from work, physical or mental.

Investor- Anyone whose primary income is derived from interest on capital invested in the market.

Dependent- Anyone whose primary income is derived from either state benefits or charity.

The problem with these three classifications is that the boundaries are very fluid. A working person earns wages, pays tax and his bills, and might have some excess. That excess he can treat as capital and invest in the market, making him an investor (minor at first, and primary, perhaps, as time goes on). An investor might actually be a pensioner who worked, paid into the system, and the system invested their wages (now capital) to obtain a return and fund the pension system. Depending on circumstances, both income producers might become dependents (one hopes temporarily).

I don't like taxing labor. It's the equivalent of the government claiming they own your sweat, the government chooses how much it takes of it, and you should be grateful for what it let's you keep.

I don't like taxing investment, as that is the equivalent of taxing savings which is the primary source of investment monies used to grow businesses and employ people.

But one or both must be taxed (leaving aside sales tax, estate taxes, fines, fees, customs and duties), if one wishes to create a safety net for those who become dependent.

[ultrablue]

and if you also want roads built, laws enforced, your property defended, your children educated, any medical problems investigated, your national parks maintained, your water cleaned, your gas and electric pumped into your house, your food safe,your family helped in an emergency, your home rebuilt, criminals punished...

I think you should learn to like taxes a bit more Steve. We are all more dependant than many care to admit.

[Steve Moss]

and if you also want roads built, laws enforced, your property defended, your children educated, any medical problems investigated, your national parks maintained, your water cleaned, your gas and electric pumped into your house, your food safe,your family helped in an emergency, your home rebuilt, criminals punished...

I think you should learn to like taxes a bit more Steve. We are all more dependant than many care to admit.

1. Education- Home schooling is a frequently better choice than the public schools. I, myself, have not taken that option with my kids but I know those who have and they seem to do well.

2. Property defended- I pity the fool who invades my home or those of my neighbors. They'd enter a putative human and leave a corpse.

3. Medical problems- ? You confuse me for an Englishman. I already pay for my and my own's health insurance and expenses.

4. Parks are paid by fees and are largely self-sufficient.

5. Gas and electric are service utilities for which I pay for, not a tax.

Etc...

I grant you the roads and the Marine Corps. The rest is a waste.

[jim mk2]

1. Education- Home schooling is a frequently better choice than the public schools. I, myself, have not taken that option with my kids but I know those who have and they seem to do well.

2. Property defended- I pity the fool who invades my home or those of my neighbors. They'd enter a putative human and leave a corpse.

3. Medical problems- ? You confuse me for an Englishman. I already pay for my and my own's health insurance and expenses.

4. Parks are paid by fees and are largely self-sufficient.

5. Gas and electric are service utilities for which I pay for, not a tax.

Etc...

I grant you the roads and the Marine Corps. The rest is a waste.

1. Education - home schooling is impractical for most working people and undesirable for children too - most end up anti-social freaks.

2. Try that in Britain and any other civilised society and you end up in jail . Quite right too.

3. That's your choice, and you can do that here too if you wish. But we also have the best and most widely admired social healthcare system in the world that looks after everyone should they need it.

4. Public parks here are free public spaces and long may they continue to be so.

All of the above shows why Britain is a better and fairer society than the US - even though the Tories will try their best to make it worse.

[ultrablue]

1. Education- Home schooling is a frequently better choice than the public schools. I, myself, have not taken that option with my kids but I know those who have and they seem to do well.

2. Property defended- I pity the fool who invades my home or those of my neighbors. They'd enter a putative human and leave a corpse.

3. Medical problems- ? You confuse me for an Englishman. I already pay for my and my own's health insurance and expenses.

4. Parks are paid by fees and are largely self-sufficient.

5. Gas and electric are service utilities for which I pay for, not a tax.

Etc...

I grant you the roads and the Marine Corps. The rest is a waste.

1. As you know, home-schooling is not an option for most parents. It is also a constitutional requirement that the states monitor what is being taught, at home or in private schools. That takes tax money.

2. Suprisingly enough, property is not owned and defended by the person with the most guns. Piracy in the US was stamped out a long time ago. Your property relies on the federally defended rule of law.

3. A large number of medical breakthroughs in the US come through the work of publicly funded universities. They are also regulated by the FDA. Without them you would still be visiting the local private quack and knocking back snake oil.

4. Try telling that to the federally employed parks and monuments staff who were sent home by the soon to be national laughing stock Ted Cruz when he shut down the government a few years back. Parks and Monuments need your taxes to be maintained and accessible to all.

5. The pipes and wires that bring you that gas and electricity are regulated and maintained largely thanks to the Dept. of Energy and the EPA. Without them, and the Interstate Commerce Clause they use, a state such as your native Arizona would suffer a huge drop in quality of life.

All this thanks to your taxes. Hardly a waste.

Let the adolescent fantasies of a libertarian near the White House, and the US would be a tenth of the nation it is.

[yoda]

What has the USA got to do with the election ?

anyway back on topic and Lord Mandelson has confirmed that Labour cocked up in the election,

"Lord Mandelson has criticised Labour for failing to come up with a credible strategy for decentralising power from London to northern England.

The former business secretary said the lack of an alternative to Chancellor George Osborne's Northern Powerhouse was a "huge political mistake".

He said Labour did not have election policies to "rebalance both the economy and the political system".

"We stepped back and passed the ball to the Conservatives and the coalition," he told BBC's Sunday Politics North West.

"And what did they do? They ran with it... and it was a strong part of their appeal both in the North West but also nationally.

"And the Labour Party, I'm afraid, has a long way to catch up. But catch up, it must do."

Not only that, he wants a piece of the action in the north, namely Manchester !

Lord Mandelson said he wanted the post "because the city of Manchester is becoming the most exciting, edgy place to be around in England".

"Let's be honest, something very exciting is happening in this region as part of the Northern Powerhouse."

[thenodrog]

3. That's your choice, and you can do that here too if you wish. But we also have the best and most widely admired social healthcare system in the world that looks after everyone should they need it.

You can do it here but you can't opt out of subbing the NHS. Like private education, people might decide to send their kids to fee paying schools but they still have to pay for state schools. Can't be right really can it?

[jim mk2]

Yes, Gordon it is. It is called the collective good. It's called socialism. It's part of this country's DNA. Long may it continue.

What has the USA got to do with the election ?

anyway back on topic and Lord Mandelson has confirmed that Labour cocked up in the election,

"Lord Mandelson has criticised Labour for failing to come up with a credible strategy for decentralising power from London to northern England.

The former business secretary said the lack of an alternative to Chancellor George Osborne's Northern Powerhouse was a "huge political mistake".

He said Labour did not have election policies to "rebalance both the economy and the political system".

Pardon the expression but wtf is the "Northern Powerhouse" except a meaningless expression cooked up by Osborne before the election to try to attract northern voters ?

The north has been starved of investment for decades compared to the south so unless the Tories come up with significant amounts of cash (ie. tens of billions sustained over many years), "Northern Powerhouse" is nothing more than empty rhetoric.

[yoda]

Yes, Gordon it is. It is called the collective good. It's called socialism. It's part of this country's DNA. Long may it continue.

Pardon the expression but wtf is the "Northern Powerhouse" except a meaningless expression cooked up by Osborne before the election to try to attract northern voters ?

The north has been starved of investment for decades compared to the south so unless the Tories come up with significant amounts of cash (ie. tens of billions sustained over many years), "Northern Powerhouse" is nothing more than empty rhetoric.

It would seem Lord Mandelson does not agree with you Jim, he can't wait to get on the bandwagon

[Steve Moss]

1. As you know, home-schooling is not an option for most parents. It is also a constitutional requirement that the states monitor what is being taught, at home or in private schools. That takes tax money.

2. Suprisingly enough, property is not owned and defended by the person with the most guns. Piracy in the US was stamped out a long time ago. Your property relies on the federally defended rule of law.

3. A large number of medical breakthroughs in the US come through the work of publicly funded universities. They are also regulated by the FDA. Without them you would still be visiting the local private quack and knocking back snake oil.

4. Try telling that to the federally employed parks and monuments staff who were sent home by the soon to be national laughing stock Ted Cruz when he shut down the government a few years back. Parks and Monuments need your taxes to be maintained and accessible to all.

5. The pipes and wires that bring you that gas and electricity are regulated and maintained largely thanks to the Dept. of Energy and the EPA. Without them, and the Interstate Commerce Clause they use, a state such as your native Arizona would suffer a huge drop in quality of life.

All this thanks to your taxes. Hardly a waste.

Let the adolescent fantasies of a libertarian near the White House, and the US would be a tenth of the nation it is.

1. Home schooling is becoming more, not less, common. Part of the reason is cooperatives, where home schooling parents take turns teaching students across multiple families. And studies indicating that home schooled children do better both academically and socially for less money, contra Jim's take on the subject. There are standardized tests they must take, but the home schooled do better on average compared to the non-home schooled.

2. A federally defended rule of law? Pray tell. Last I checked, my property is first protected by me and my neighbors, second by local law enforcement (paid for by local tax dollars) and third by state courts. The federal government has precious little to do with it. And please note that shooting a home invader is not "piracy". If anything, the home invader is the pirate and a bullet is the least he deserves.

3. Yes. Though to clarify, it is largely the states that fund public universities, not the federal government. The federal government does, however, fund some research projects and will provide aid to needy students via loans and grants.

4. As to the National Park shutdown, that was another political stunt by Obama. Even if there are no employees on scene, there was no reason not to let the states run them or simply let people wander through the wilderness and park areas. Instead they barricaded them. Disgusting. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/10/15/republicans-national-park-service-shutdown/2990847/

5. I think, again, that you have a misconception between state and federal power. The Department of Energy and the EPA do not "maintain" gas and electricity. Private utilities do that for which they charge the customer. Those entities might publish standards to which they must be maintained, but those standards are increasingly politicized and inefficient.

[adopted scouser]

You can do it here but you can't opt out of subbing the NHS. Like private education, people might decide to send their kids to fee paying schools but they still have to pay for state schools. Can't be right really can it?

Thinking about the NHS and reading the paper this morning, I honestly can't see how it can cope without some privatisation.

Uncontrolled immigration (annually) leaves us with enough people to to populate a city the size of Leeds, they all need healthcare. At the moment it takes three or four days on average to get an appointment with a GP, people just turn up at A&E as a consequence.

It would still be free at the point of delivery, and similar systems run perfectly well in France and Germany (amongst others).

Why is a little privatisation such a terrible idea ?

[Gav]

Osbourne is looking to cut 200m from the 'guaranteed' public health budget. Contracts have been agreed, people's jobs created on the back of this money and Gideons looking to cut it.

It's only the start.

http://m.lgcplus.com/5086583.article

[Biddy]

Why is a little privatisation such a terrible idea ?

Because a little inevitably leads to a lot.

[ultrablue]

1. Home schooling is becoming more, not less, common. Part of the reason is cooperatives, where home schooling parents take turns teaching students across multiple families. And studies indicating that home schooled children do better both academically and socially for less money, contra Jim's take on the subject. There are standardized tests they must take, but the home schooled do better on average compared to the non-home schooled.

2. A federally defended rule of law? Pray tell. Last I checked, my property is first protected by me and my neighbors, second by local law enforcement (paid for by local tax dollars) and third by state courts. The federal government has precious little to do with it. And please note that shooting a home invader is not "piracy". If anything, the home invader is the pirate and a bullet is the least he deserves.

3. Yes. Though to clarify, it is largely the states that fund public universities, not the federal government. The federal government does, however, fund some research projects and will provide aid to needy students via loans and grants.

4. As to the National Park shutdown, that was another political stunt by Obama. Even if there are no employees on scene, there was no reason not to let the states run them or simply let people wander through the wilderness and park areas. Instead they barricaded them. Disgusting. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/10/15/republicans-national-park-service-shutdown/2990847/

5. I think, again, that you have a misconception between state and federal power. The Department of Energy and the EPA do not "maintain" gas and electricity. Private utilities do that for which they charge the customer. Those entities might publish standards to which they must be maintained, but those standards are increasingly politicized and inefficient.

Last comment on this because I'm conscious that this isn't an American politics thread.

Just a quick note first - I didn't state any reference, preference or distinction between state and federal taxes, because you didn't initially. Tax is tax because it all comes out of your "sweat and labour" or your investments, as you said yourself.

1. Homeschooling accounts for less than 4% of the way kids in the US are educated.

Whether you homeschool your children, or as thenogrog brought up, send them in a fee paying school- educating the general populace is in the interest of everyone. Tax funded public education ensures every child, not just your own, has a shot at a future, regardless of their circumstances. This in turn makes your life better. Simple.

2. Of course the rule of law is defended by the federal government. You forgot to mention the fourth and ultimate rung on the ladder - the Supreme Court and the Constitution. Without your tax dollars going to defend that then you might as well pack up and head up to Canada! Piracy was referring to the fact that you and your neighbour with your guns are no match for a bigger group with bigger guns, intent on taking what is yours. You do not live in a perpetual state of having to defend your property from others, (unless you hold it unlawfully) and that is because of the tax funded government protects your property.

3. Again, don't care if its state or federal - public funded means tax funded.

4. Political stunt by Obama?? Remind me again which branch holds the purse strings? Who held the Federal government hostage and cost the nation millions all because they couldn't repeal the democratically passed Affordable Care Act, despite trying 40 times? Ted Cruz and his band of merry men were pulling reckless political stunts left right and centre. Fortunately the man is as hated by his own party as he is by the Democrats and has zero chance of getting the 2016 nomination.

5. No confusion. You are right the National Grid is an alliance of private companies that looks after the physical infrastructure. But federally created standards and regulations are as much part of maintenance as direct management is. Living a few hours from the biggest nuclear power plant in the US, I'd say you rely on regulations more than most!

[Paul]

You quite obviously haven't watched the clip from the link that I provided. Big mistake because your supercilious tone must now be rather embarrassing to you. The term 'working mother' are not my words they are hers. That is how she chose to actually describe herself. Do try not to shoot the messenger Paul.

As for you ancient, embittered pinko's telling others to move on and not live in the past !!! You must be avin a laff!

As ever your closing sentence emphasises my original point. As for jumping in with both feet it was you looked to provoke a reaction in the original post in a thread I've ignored for weeks. God knows why, I can only imagine you have nothing else to do with yourself.

[Gav]

Just for a bit of perspective:

http://m.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/13317798.Former_carpet_fitter_falsely_claimed_almost__19_000_in_benefits_while_he_had__170_000_in_the_bank/?ref=mr&lp=1

It's not only the most desperate in society that feel the need to claim!

I'd have jailed the greedy swine.

[ABBEY]

good to see democracy being allowed in full tory force...vote for me in EU vote or resign says the dictator to his sheep.

[thenodrog]

Thinking about the NHS and reading the paper this morning, I honestly can't see how it can cope without some privatisation.

Uncontrolled immigration (annually) leaves us with enough people to to populate a city the size of Leeds, they all need healthcare. At the moment it takes three or four days on average to get an appointment with a GP, people just turn up at A&E as a consequence.

It would still be free at the point of delivery, and similar systems run perfectly well in France and Germany (amongst others).

Why is a little privatisation such a terrible idea ?

It's an emotive word to some. It reminds them of their failings. Maybe they should call it 'independent'.

'Free at point of delivery' is a problem imo. There should be a nominal £20 charge to see a Doctor, £10 of which is refundable when the appointment is kept on time simply to do away with the legions of time wasters and people who can't be arsed to either turn up or cancel their appointment. So much wasted resource is down to this so the culprits should be made to pay.

[thenodrog]

As ever your closing sentence emphasises my original point. As for jumping in with both feet it was you looked to provoke a reaction in the original post in a thread I've ignored for weeks. God knows why, I can only imagine you have nothing else to do with yourself.

I was going to reply but tbqh I can't be arsed.

[Gav]

I'd be all for charging people £10 if they miss an appointment without a genuine reason because it is an issue. But not charging in the first place as that will put further strain on A&E with people that simply don't have £20 for an appointment and then need desperate medical help.

[thenodrog]

Just for a bit of perspective:

http://m.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/13317798.Former_carpet_fitter_falsely_claimed_almost__19_000_in_benefits_while_he_had__170_000_in_the_bank/?ref=mr&lp=1

It's not only the most desperate in society that feel the need to claim!

I'd have jailed the greedy swine.

I hope this bit "He will now face a proceeds of crime hearing on October 2, to set a timetable for him to repay the money"

means 'bring your chequebook with you'.

I'd be all for charging people £10 if they miss an appointment without a genuine reason because it is an issue. But not charging in the first place as that will put further strain on A&E with people that simply don't have £20 for an appointment and then need desperate medical help.

A tenner is nothing if you are ill gav. How about £15 and including a single prescription charge in the deal. Too many timewasters gumming up the works and taking the resources for the genuinely poorly.

[K-Hod]

You can do it here but you can't opt out of subbing the NHS. Like private education, people might decide to send their kids to fee paying schools but they still have to pay for state schools. Can't be right really can it?

That's easy, just save themselves the fees and go to a state school ;-)