[Archived] The General Election 2015

[jim mk2]

Question to you GAV, are you a "hard working person"? Do you rely on tax credits? I know I am and I don't. The reason, I work full time and work hard to make sure I can provide and don't have to "rely" on tax credits. What is so wrong with people actually working for a living?

The answer to this appalling statement is that hundreds of thousands if not millions work bloody hard yet are locked in poverty wages, often on zero hours contracts, with no means of escape. Worse, one of the side-effects of Iain Duncan Smith's Workfare compulsory labour schemes is that they further drive down wages and working conditions for other working people, especially in the retail, elderly care and low-skilled manufacturing and service sectors. In addition, hundreds of thousands of children are officially living in poverty, which is a disgrace for the 6th wealthiest country in the world. Tax credits are vital lifelines for these people, which put help to put food on the table for their children, so if you really mean what you are saying you have gone even further down in my estimation.

[Gav]

Of course we are not looking at the bigger picture here. Maybe for instance the crisis was so bad, the previous government had to over-pay what it was actually worth? The current government aren't selling off at an artificially low level, they are just selling shares over the next 5 years at the current share price. They hope that the price will start rising over the course of 5 years so they actually get more back long term. Also, the buy price and the "current" sale price do not take into account all the repayments, fees and asset sales over the time of state ownership. Rotheschilds estimate that the UK taxpayer is expected to make £14bn from the start to end of the RBS state ownership. Surely there is no reason why a government should continue to own a bank?

Or you could just say that Osborne is helping big business make a shed load of cash at the expense of the British tax payer, I never wanted to bail out the banks, nobody has been held accountable, the Tories blame Labour for the crisis which is cr@p, they did over spend, but never caused the banking crisis. Look at the post office sell off, one side of the business was massively under sold, and the tax payers are footing the bill for the pension side of the post office! So we're hit twice.

Question to you GAV, are you a "hard working person"? Do you rely on tax credits? I know I am and I don't. The reason, I work full time and work hard to make sure I can provide and don't have to "rely" on tax credits. What is so wrong with people actually working for a living?

Although actually on reading the news article I see it only says "sources close to Osbourne" say he is "considering" which means there's a lot of hearsay going on. The BBC report says that the government believes companies get away with paying low ages as the government top this up with tax credits. Well that might be right, but surely the government should tackle that first by increasing the minimum wage to an acceptable level. Then more people would be paid above the working tax credit threshold anyway.

You're missing the point by a country mile, people are on low earnings for a variety of reasons and as a result rely on working tax credit to help them get by. These are hard working people possibly with 2/3 jobs but earning minimum wage, they could work more hours than you and me but earn a lot less. Just because you don't rely on tax credits doesn't mean nobody else should Biddy, thats an 'I'm all right jack' philosophy which most Tories hold, not that I'm saying you're a Tory by the way.

[Biddy]

The answer to this appalling statement is that hundreds of thousands if not millions work bloody hard yet are locked in poverty wages, often on zero hours contracts, with no means of escape. Worse, one of the side-effects of Iain Duncan Smith's Workfare compulsory labour schemes is that they further drive down wages and working conditions for other working people, especially in the retail, elderly care and low-skilled manufacturing and service sectors. In addition, hundreds of thousands of children are officially living in poverty, which is a disgrace for the 6th wealthiest country in the world. Tax credits are vital lifelines for these people, which put help to put food on the table for their children, so unless you really mean what you are saying (in which case you have gone even further down in my estimation) please engage your brain before you write this kind of rubbish.

You also have not answered the question as to whether you think people should actually work full time and pay their way rather than rely on handouts. I did follow up that I personally think the government should tackle the low wage problem by setting a realistic minimum wage before making any cuts as that will raise people out of needing the handout in the first place. No worries though, you shoot off on your own political agenda..again.

Also honestly, I can't say I'm too bothered where I fit in your estimation. Brain is always engaged trying to see and find a balance to all the madness. Can't say the same for some entrenched folk.

[Biddy]

Or you could just say that Osborne is helping big business make a shed load of cash at the expense of the British tax payer, I never wanted to bail out the banks, nobody has been held accountable, the Tories blame Labour for the crisis which is cr@p, they did over spend, but never caused the banking crisis. Look at the post office sell off, one side of the business was massively under sold, and the tax payers are footing the bill for the pension side of the post office! So we're hit twice.

But why ignore what I say/ask and twist it into an anti-osbourne statement? Analysis says that the taxpayer will be £14bn better off from start to finish so it's not been a bad thing. Personally I think Gordon Brown did exactly the right thing in bailing out the bank. The only thing he could do and quite right. The fact the country has made money from it is great. All banks should go back in to private ownership. Hopefully over 5 years for a better price than it currently is. If you think the price is too low now, buy some shares, make some money out of the sale!

Post Office - Agreed, total farce.

You're missing the point by a country mile, people are on low earnings for a variety of reasons and as a result rely on working tax credit to help them get by. These are hard working people possibly with 2/3 jobs but earning minimum wage, they could work more hours than you and me but earn a lot less. Just because you don't rely on tax credits doesn't mean nobody else should Biddy, thats an 'I'm all right jack' philosophy which most Tories hold,

But again, why are people relying on working tax credits? There *should* be no need for them. Again, the government needs to tackle the source of the problem first which is minimum wage which should make it more beneficial to work. Businesses (especially smaller ones now also having to pay pensions) might see it another way.

not that I'm saying you're a Tory by the way.

Thank god, never voted for them in my life!

[Al]

I notice this morning that Gideon has decided its time to sell RBS for some 15bn less than the tax payer paid for the bank in 2008, and the queue to buy RBS will be long, very long, because its being sold at a cut price, and someone somewhere will make a packet from its acquisition.

On the same day its being reported that he’s going to cut working tax credit to 2003 levels, saving 5bn. This would mean around 4m hard working people would lose £1400 a year. The Tories believe it will encourage people to work harder, take on more work on and not rely on welfare. So in other words work yourself into the ground on zero hours contracts and poorly paid jobs......

So whilst Tax avoidance is now pushed firmly back under the table after the election, Starbucks and other international companies breath a sign of relief, the hedge funders can rest easy, its the poorest in society that foot the bill again, and people voted for this party, in massive numbers, they must be doing something right, but what?

It's simple. He's found a way to put 15billion back into the public coffers that Labour frittered away on deadbeats.

[jim mk2]

You also have not answered the question as to whether you think people should actually work full time and pay their way rather than rely on handouts. I did follow up that I personally think the government should tackle the low wage problem by setting a realistic minimum wage before making any cuts as that will raise people out of needing the handout in the first place. No worries though, you shoot off on your own political agenda..again.

Also honestly, I can't say I'm too bothered where I fit in your estimation. Brain is always engaged trying to see and find a balance to all the madness. Can't say the same for some entrenched folk.

These people are working full time - which you don't seem to understand. And they need the tax credits to supplement their very low income - which again you don't seem to understand. You qualified your earlier statement with the second part but that still doesn't excuse what you wrote.

[Gav]

But why ignore what I say/ask and twist it into an anti-osbourne statement? Analysis says that the taxpayer will be £14bn better off from start to finish so it's not been a bad thing. Personally I think Gordon Brown did exactly the right thing in bailing out the bank. The only thing he could do and quite right. The fact the country has made money from it is great. All banks should go back in to private ownership. Hopefully over 5 years for a better price than it currently is. If you think the price is too low now, buy some shares, make some money out of the sale!

Quite simply its being sold off on the cheap, like the post office, yes the country will make money, but big business will make more because its being sold off on the cheap.

But again, why are people relying on working tax credits? There *should* be no need for them. Again, the government needs to tackle the source of the problem first which is minimum wage which should make it more beneficial to work. Businesses (especially smaller ones now also having to pay pensions) might see it another way.

Biddy you're missing the point pal.

Maybe we shouldn't have a need for working family tax credit but we do, and the people claiming are WORKING PEOPLE, working full time for poor wages. If they don't have access to working family tax credit its surely more beneficial for them to stop working and just claim benefits? But thats another argument for another time, simple facts are the poorest are being hit, you can't get away from that.

Thank god, never voted for them in my life!

I did vote Tory once in the locals to keep the BNP out, couldn't sleep for weeks after, felt dirty, but it worked!

[K-Hod]

It's simple. He's found a way to put 15billion back into the public coffers that Labour frittered away on deadbeats.

Not really Al, especially given it's going for £15Billion less than it was bought for.....

If anything, this is the Tories ballsing up, like when they grossly under-valued the Post Office....

[Biddy]

Quite simply its being sold off on the cheap, like the post office, yes the country will make money, but big business will make more because its being sold off on the cheap.

No it's not though. It's being sold off at the current stock exchange rate dictated by the market. If they sell some shares and the price rises, then more money is made on the next shares to be sold. Post Office was different, it wasn't on the stock exchange so no one knew the real value. The idiots in charge set the price too low, way below the market value. That was a complete shafting.

Biddy you're missing the point pal.

Maybe we shouldn't have a need for working family tax credit but we do, and the people claiming are WORKING PEOPLE, working full time for poor wages. If they don't have access to working family tax credit its surely more beneficial for them to stop working and just claim benefits? But thats another argument for another time, simple facts are the poorest are being hit, you can't get away from that.

Am I though? I keep saying that minimum wage needs to rise before working tax credit is cut. Surely that would raise the poor wages thus no longer needing the tax credit. Can't have it both ways. Granted this government will not raise minimum wage and will cut tax credit so I am deluded.

I did vote Tory once in the locals to keep the BNP out, couldn't sleep for weeks after, felt dirty, but it worked!

Dirty Tory scum, I hope Jim disowns you!

[Paul]

Interesting statement from the Prudential, in particular in relation to pensions freedom, something I'm in favour of, but I don't recall Cameron or Osborne telling us this bit:

"newly introduced pension freedoms could lead to an increase in tax revenue of £320 million during the 2015-16 tax year and £1.22 billion in 2018-19"

Retired households face higher tax bills

10 Jun 15

Retired households face an average annual tax bill of £6,500, research by Prudential has found.

Analysis of data from the Office for National Statistics reveals that pensioners pay thousands in direct and indirect taxes each year.

The figures show that the average retired household income rose to £21,800 in the 2012/13 tax year. However, the amount of tax paid by retired households also increased and pensioners are now paying over 30% of their income to the taxman.

In the 2012/13 tax year:

• the average retired household paid £3,900 in indirect taxes and £2,600 in direct taxes
• indirect taxes (including VAT and duties) accounted for 60.2% of the average retired household's tax bill
• direct taxes (including income tax and council tax) made up 39.8% of the average tax bill
• VAT was the biggest tax item, accounting for 8.2% of the average tax bill
• income tax accounted for 7.4% of the average tax bill.

The Treasury estimates that the newly introduced pension freedoms could lead to an increase in tax revenue of £320 million during the 2015-16 tax year and £1.22 billion in 2018-19. The research highlights this as further proof that people approaching retirement need to factor tax into their plans.

[jim mk2]

As always the devil is in the detail - their apparent pensions "generosity" is in fact a ruse to raise more tax revenue.

[Biddy]

Interesting article Paul. As you say, most people applauded the introduction as it is a freedom to effectively use your own money as you see fit.

What I'm not clear on is where that report says the extra tax revenue is coming from. Is that estimated as extra income tax from the pension pot money? If so that is scandalous.

Or is it estimated extra VAT receipts from pensioners having access to their money and thus being able to spend it on more items? If so, surely that's not a bad thing?

[Paul]

I can't answer that Biddy and agree if it's increased spending power and VAT this seems positive.

However as the projection comes from the Pru my guess is the Pru anticipates higher incomes for pensioners which must lead to more taxation. From what I've read, this is going to effect me soon I hope, one has to be very careful in relation to lump sums and drawdowns and tax efficiency. It may be this area the Pru is looking at.

If pensions freedom results in higher income for pensioners that has to be positive. I'm sure Osborne knew the tax potential many moons ago which is why the change has come about.

[Mike E]

The benefits cap intrigues me. Can anybody clarify whether the £23k figure is additional to wages or is an allowable limit when including wages?

The Mirror had an article in which it claimed the 'cruel government cuts' forced a family out of their house.

In actuality the family have relied on benefits for a long time, with 4 out of the 7 kids born after redundancy of the husband (wife didn't work). Now imo there is NOTHING wrong with that as the family has shown their irresponsibility.

If you have 3 kids and lose all your income, don't have 4 more and expect government handouts!

[Gav]

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/family/tax-credit-child-working-overpayment

[Mike E]

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/family/tax-credit-child-working-overpayment

That just annoyed me even more. 'Earn' £46,000 just because they had 4 kids? Bloody joke, that!

[thenodrog]

What do you expect from a history graduate who wanted to be a journalist but ended up chancellor ?

There's nothing new in all this - it's been going on for 5 years.

5 years??? Really? Some might suggest that Osborne is being left to clean up a mess made by Labour in 2008. Thats when Labour royally screwed up the economy remember? Put in simpler terms that was the year that the 2015 election was lost.

It wasn't a Conservative govt that caused the problem in the first place was it? Nor was it the conservatives who set the bale out cost back then either. The fact that Labours bale out of RBS cost more than it is worth on the open market 7 years later can hardly be down to Cameron and Osborne can it?

[K-Hod]

They had no choice but to bail out the banks, or we were all goosed! During that time, Britain RETAINED its AAA credit rating, only for the current incumbents to subsequent lose it!

Cameron's government have borrowed an extra £548 Billion since coming to power, (They've borrowed more in 4 years than Labour did in 13!) and haven't removed the deficit like they said they would.

[thenodrog]

The answer to this appalling statement is that hundreds of thousands if not millions work bloody hard yet are locked in poverty wages, often on zero hours contracts, with no means of escape. Worse, one of the side-effects of Iain Duncan Smith's Workfare compulsory labour schemes is that they further drive down wages and working conditions for other working people, especially in the retail, elderly care and low-skilled manufacturing and service sectors. In addition, hundreds of thousands of children are officially living in poverty, which is a disgrace for the 6th wealthiest country in the world. Tax credits are vital lifelines for these people, which put help to put food on the table for their children, so if you really mean what you are saying you have gone even further down in my estimation.

Bleeding hearts of the world unite. Can't those kids eat cake? Gav'll see they get some.

Anyway as you well know there are two types of poverty 'relative' and 'absolute'. The former I have much trouble with. People in relative poverty are those who live on less than 60% of the average wage.

1. That's not poverty that's simply having to be frugal. i.e. cutting down on entertainment, having to forego holidays and a car etc. The point is that no one is starving no matter what spin the foodbankers put on it.

2. I bet your wealthy builder neighbour qualifies with HMRC as living in relative poverty eh?

[yoda]

They had no choice but to bail out the banks, or we were all goosed! During that time, Britain RETAINED its AAA credit rating, only for the current incumbents to lose it!

Cameron's government have borrowed an extra £548 Billion since coming to power, and haven't removed the deficit like they said they would. They've borrowed more in 4 years than Labour did in 13!

Is that not the cost of reparing the damage ?

[K-Hod]

Is that not the cost of reparing the damage ?

For anyone to blame the global economic crisis on Labour is ridiculous in the extreme.

[yoda]

For anyone to blame the global economic crisis on Labour is ridiculous in the extreme.

I wasn't per se, but I dont think Osbourne has trousered the dosh do you ?

[K-Hod]

I wasn't per se, but I dont think Osbourne has trousered the dosh do you ?

Of course not, but I do think a lot of people are trying to re-write history, and folk have fallen for it, I blame short memories. (Not aimed at you btw).

[thenodrog]

I notice this morning that Gideon has decided its time to sell RBS for some 15bn less than the tax payer paid for the bank in 2008, and the queue to buy RBS will be long, very long, because its being sold at a cut price, and someone somewhere will make a packet from its acquisition.

On the same day its being reported that he’s going to cut working tax credit to 2003 levels, saving 5bn. This would mean around 4m hard working people would lose £1400 a year. The Tories believe it will encourage people to work harder, take on more work on and not rely on welfare. So in other words work yourself into the ground on zero hours contracts and poorly paid jobs......

So whilst Tax avoidance is now pushed firmly back under the table after the election, Starbucks and other international companies breath a sign of relief, the hedge funders can rest easy, its the poorest in society that foot the bill again, and people voted for this party, in massive numbers, they must be doing something right, but what?

Couple of comments gav.

1. Anybody can look for a better paid job can't they? No one is tied to any business. When we were all at school the teachers all said, 'work hard, study hard, do your homework and pass your exams and you'll end up with good jobs'. Some chose to take that advice whilst others chose to ignore it. Why now should the genuine taxpayers provide hand outs?

2. The tax avoidance by the likes of Starbucks and Amazon etc isn't that easy as it is an international problem. Pretty ironic that binning off the likes of starbucks and amazon would actually hit the people you are seeking to protect hardest or have you not considered that?

Also I understand lots of French businesses have moved to Kent to avoid swingeing French business taxes in order to take advantage of Britains lower taxes. They provide employment this side of the channel so what would you do with them?

[thenodrog]

These people are working full time - which you don't seem to understand. And they need the tax credits to supplement their very low income - which again you don't seem to understand. You qualified your earlier statement with the second part but that still doesn't excuse what you wrote.

They get £10600 as a personal allowance as does everybody. Isn't that approx 50% more than they received under the last Labour govt in 2009/10... and in a period of record low inflation?