[Archived] The General Election 2015

[Stefan Hedgehog]

Does anyone on this site know who this new MP is for Blackburn.

[thenodrog]

its just obscene to me that any working class person north of London would choose to vote tory scum, you've allowed yourself and your family to be mugged if you did

there's that odd term again....'working class'. People use it frequentl yet can never define it.

[thenodrog]

Does anyone on this site know who this new MP is for Blackburn.

Kate hollern. An immigrant from scotland who came to blackburn a number of years ago and decided she wanted to change things. Here she is celebrating her election victory with some other people who share her ambitions.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/resources/images/3738739/

BTW tj there is a possible answer to your previous statement in the image.

[Gav]

there's that odd term again....'working class'. People use it frequentl yet can never define it.

Its been defined many times on this thread Gordon, you just don't agree with the definition.

[T J Hooker]

How often does he try mocking Paul because he perceives Paul to be a higher class than himself, theno just seems bitter because he was born into a class he resents for some reason.

[Mike E]

Its been defined many times on this thread Gordon, you just don't agee with the definition.

My definition of 'Working Class' is someone who earns their wage/salary. Emphasis on EARN it.

Even that is subjective, but I think most will agree that footballers, many MPs, many bankers etc don't. I'd argue estate agents too.

[T J Hooker]

Take your pick

The working class (also labouring class and proletariat) are the people employed for wages, especially in manual-labour occupations and in skilled-labour, industrial work.^[1] Working-class occupations include blue-collar jobs, some white-collar jobs, and most service-work jobs. The working class rely upon their earnings from wage labour, thereby, the category includes most of the working population of industrialized economies, of the urban areas (cities, towns, villages) of non-industrialized economies, and of the rural workforce.

In Marxist theory and in socialist literature, the term working class usually is synonymous and interchangeable with the term proletariat, and includes all workers who expend either physical labour or mental labour (salaried knowledge workers and white-collar workers) to produce economic value for the owners of the means of production, the bourgeoisie.^[2] Since working-class wages can be very low, and because the state of unemployment is defined as a lack of independent means of generating an income and a lack wage-labour employment, the term working class also includes the lumpenproletariat, unemployed people who are extremely poor.

Definitions

As with many terms describing social class, working class is defined and used in many different ways. The most general definition, used by Marxists and socialists, is that the working class includes all those who have nothing to sell but their labor-power and skills. In that sense it includes both white and blue-collar workers, manual and mental workers of all types, excluding only individuals who derive their income from business ownership.

When used non-academically in the United States, however, it often refers to a section of society dependent on physical labor, especially when compensated with an hourly wage. For certain types of science, as well as less scientific or journalistic political analysis, for example, the working class is loosely defined as those without college degrees.^[3] Working-class occupations are then categorized into four groups: Unskilled laborers, artisans, outworkers, and factory workers.^[4]

A common alternative, sometimes used in sociology, is to define class by income levels. When this approach is used, the working class can be contrasted with a so-called middle class on the basis of differential terms of access to economic resources, education, cultural interests, and other goods and services. The cut-off between working class and middle class here might mean the line where a population has discretionary income, rather than simply sustenance (for example, on fashion versus merely nutrition and shelter).

Some researchers have suggested that working-class status should be defined subjectively as self-identification with the working-class group.^[5] This subjective approach allows people, rather than researchers, to define their own social class.

Personally I think you can just work it our by counting how many sections of society you look down on the more you look down on the higher up the class ladder you're likely to be.

[Gav]

My definition of 'Working Class' is someone who earns their wage/salary. Emphasis on EARN it.

Even that is subjective, but I think most will agree that footballers, many MPs, many bankers etc don't. I'd argue estate agents too.

I think you have to add into the mix claiming benefits or relying on welfare. The working classes have the potential to require benefits for a variety of reasons, often middle class and certainly upper classes don't.

We'll now get people coming on and saying they're working class and have never claimed benefits, but it's not one size fits all, if you had kids you'll have had child benefit, maybe you've had a breakup with a partner and needed help to support yourself or maybe you work full time on a poor wage and need help.

So I'd add welfare potential into working class.

[Mike E]

Perhaps thus:

If you work, you're working class.

If you claim benefits because you cannot work (illness, disability, maternity etc) you'd maybe be in the same bracket.

But those who claim benefits and refuse to work (I know a few, unfortunately) are lazy feckless two-hats who need a rocket up the bum and should be given nothing at all.

[matt83]

Does anyone on this site know who this new MP is for Blackburn.

Funnily enough speaking to my old colleague who still lives in the town and a big labourite (champagne socialist really). He was less than complimentary about her. She was leader of bburn council through which the local Labour Party she would stand. While leader of the council she was on benefits and claimed expenses to the tune of £35k a year. If he is to be believed the majority of the council are. Presumably no time to work.

Not my words but he said Will she progress in politics. No. Will she do anything for the country. No. Will she do anything for the town. No. She's just voting fodder in a very strong labour area. Needless to say he wasn't a fan.

To be fair bburn has been spoilt by political big hitters from Barbara castle in the 50s to jack straw. Now a nobody.

[Gav]

Plenty of people that work rely on benefits also Mike.

People that don't work because they choose to rely on benefits are in the minority and I agree deserve a rocket up their arses. The Tories are claiming to hit this minority, but are punishing the majority, which is a disgrace, they don't seem to be able to differentiate between scrounges (hate that word) and working people struggling to make ends meet.

Scandalous really.

[Al]

I think you have to add into the mix claiming benefits or relying on welfare. The working classes have the potential to require benefits for a variety of reasons, often middle class and certainly upper classes don't.

We'll now get people coming on and saying they're working class and have never claimed benefits, but it's not one size fits all, if you had kids you'll have had child benefit, maybe you've had a breakup with a partner and needed help to support yourself or maybe you work full time on a poor wage and need help.

So I'd add welfare potential into working class.

Sorry don't see how people totally on benefits can be described as "working".

[Gav]

Sorry don't see how people totally on benefits can be described as "working".

I know a few people claiming benefits because they can't find work Al, I also know plenty through my line of work that are on benefits as a career! but these people are very much in the minority and don't tell me about Accy Town centre on giro day

[T J Hooker]

To be honest i haven't seen or heard anything good about this kate hollern, say what you will about straw but at least he genuinely cared about the town(relatively speaking, as far as mps go) and kept the town moving forward(instead of stagnating for decades like some of our neighbouring towns) but i think his replacement is the epitome of a career politician from what i gather and is only interested in her own future. but luckily in my opinion there are some very good ward councillors(of various parties) that really care about their areas and are in it for nothing more than contributing to there neighbourhoods the best they can.

[Al]

I know a few people claiming benefits because they can't find work Al, I also know plenty through my line of work that are on benefits as a career! but these people are very much in the minority and don't tell me about Accy Town centre on giro day

I can to some extent understand what you say and to some extent sympathise for a time but they can't be described as "Working" because they are not. Please don't remind me about Accy Town centre on giro day

[ultrablue]

It's not being described as working, it's working class. And it means nothing anyway. It's a fluid identity that you choose for yourself or others may ascribe to you. The best measurement i suppose in a quantative way would be how much a bank would be willing to loan you. But again, well to do people may still claim to belong to the working class. As we have said on this thread multiple times, sociologists have offered many alternative class systems.

[Stefan Hedgehog]

To be honest i haven't seen or heard anything good about this kate hollern, say what you will about straw but at least he genuinely cared about the town(relatively speaking, as far as mps go) and kept the town moving forward(instead of stagnating for decades like some of our neighbouring towns) but i think his replacement is the epitome of a career politician from what i gather and is only interested in her own future. but luckily in my opinion there are some very good ward councillors(of various parties) that really care about their areas and are in it for nothing more than contributing to there neighbourhoods the best they can.

her family are horrible people im suprised torydrog does not know them.

[yoda]

To be honest i haven't seen or heard anything good about this kate hollern, say what you will about straw but at least he genuinely cared about the town(relatively speaking, as far as mps go) and kept the town moving forward(instead of stagnating for decades like some of our neighbouring towns) but i think his replacement is the epitome of a career politician from what i gather and is only interested in her own future. but luckily in my opinion there are some very good ward councillors(of various parties) that really care about their areas and are in it for nothing more than contributing to there neighbourhoods the best they can.

I will let you know, seeing her sometime in the next week or so, might give you a special mention TJ

[T J Hooker]

Wow thats really fascinating, im sure you'll have a lot to talk about whilst your taking her coat(dont get your hopes up for a big tip though)

[yoda]

Wow thats really fascinating, im sure you'll have a lot to talk about whilst your taking her coat(dont get your hopes up for a big tip though)

I am going to see her TJ, lots to talk about, you will be getting a mention

[T J Hooker]

Why are you telling me this boring rubbish,

do you genuinely believe that i or anybody else is going to be impressed because you may be meeting a useles nomark mp that couldnt be picked out of a line up by 99%+ of her own constituents and if im the only thing that you have of intetest to talk about with her then you really are sadder than i ever imagined.

[yoda]

Why are you telling me this boring rubbish,

do you genuinely believe that i or anybody else is going to be impressed because you may be meeting a useles nomark mp that couldnt be picked out of a line up by 99%+ of her own constituents and if im the only thing that you have of intetest to talk about with her then you really are sadder than i ever imagined.

Oh dear, sounds like I have touched a nerve

[T J Hooker]

You really havent, you're just confirming even further to me and everybody else what a sad little attention seeker you are, have you really nothing better to do in your super exciting hi rolling life than troll me like a weirdo.

Now have your final word and go to bed.

[yoda]

You really havent, you're just confirming even further to me and everybody else what a sad little attention seeker you are, have you really nothing better to do in your super exciting hi rolling life than troll me like a weirdo.

Now have your final word and go to bed.

Don't reply then

simples

[Stefan Hedgehog]

I am going to see her TJ, lots to talk about, you will be getting a mention

ask her how her smackheed family are getting along whilst your there