[Archived] The General Election 2015

[Baz]

First point, why 27k? When I started it was 10k for the full degree. Why are the fees higher?

If the student doesn't pay it back, the taxpayer does. Do you honestly believe it is fair that the taxpayer potentially must subsidise someone studying David Beckham?

And how many students are there that study David Beckham?

[Mike E]

And how many students are there that study David Beckham?

Enough that a course is even offered

[T J Hooker]

Training to become a Nurse, doctor, teacher or some other worthwhile profession that contributes to society in a big way should be completely free

[Gav]

Sounds like education snobbery to me, going to university is more than just about the course you’re studying its about meeting new people with different outlooks on life and views. Its about moving to a different town and city in most cases and experiencing different things.

It doesn’t matter what you’re studying it should never be one rule for one and one rule for another in terms on finance, that favours the rich kids, the Tory way.

[thenodrog]

Being poor does not equate to a lack of intelligence.

Pretty sure %age wise it will fall that way. To return to the days of my education Grammar school parents will almost always produce kids with a higher IQ than parents who filled up the secondary moderns. Just as two 6ft parents will produce taller kids than two 5ft parents. I will concede there are exceptions to every rule but even the exceptions are down to the genetics of previous generations. Didn't you study biology as a single subject imy?

[thenodrog]

You won't be saying that when I graduate in Philosophy & Ethics!

Exactly.

btw just looked it up.... http://www.hope.ac.uk/undergraduate/undergraduatecourses/philosophyandethics/

What a waste of time, money and lives. All based on the ridiculous assumption that there is a God!!!

[jim mk2]

You're talking through your arse Gordon. And you know nothing about genetics.

There's lots of very intelligent people who come from poor backgrounds but because of their upbringing and / or where they live and / or their social circumstances they never had a chance in life from day one. Those that make it through and do well and very few few and far between.

[thenodrog]

Sounds like education snobbery to me, going to university is more than just about the course you’re studying its about meeting new people with different outlooks on life and views. Its about moving to a different town and city in most cases and experiencing different things.

It doesn’t matter what you’re studying it should never be one rule for one and one rule for another in terms on finance, that favours the rich kids, the Tory way.

Don't need to go to Uni to do that.

I don't think you get it gav. Too stuck in the old left wing rut. Open your mind. We are past discussing rich a poor kids we are discussing levels of intelligence and relevant careers.

[jim mk2]

Don't need to go to Uni to do that.

I don't think you get it gav. Too stuck in the old left wing rut. Open your mind. We are past discussing rich a poor kids we are discussing levels of intelligence and relevant careers.

As a Thatcherite dinosaur when have you ever opened your mind ?

[thenodrog]

You're talking through your arse Gordon. And you know nothing about genetics.

There's lots of very intelligent people who come from poor backgrounds but because of their upbringing and / or where they live and / or their social circumstances they never had a chance in life from day one. Those that make it through and do well and very few few and far between.

%ages are against you. I suggest it's you who knows nothing about genetics.

Oh and speaking of dinosaurs you still cannot grasp even given the results of the last election that your brand of embittered socialism is dead and gone. No doubt it will return as history does repeat itself but it certainly won't in your lifetime.

[jim mk2]

%ages are against you. I suggest it's you who knows nothing about genetics.

I know from experience that you are talking through your arse. I've seen these kids who are bright as buttons but will never get anywhere because of the reasons mentioned above. And just because some kids go to a "better" school or have parents with money doesn't mean they are more intelligent - but it does mean that the dice are loaded in their favour from the start.

[thenodrog]

I must at this stage assure all members that Jimmk2 has absolutely NO experience of my arse!!! Also whoever's arse he does have experience of is no concern of mine.

[jim mk2]

I can assure all members that I have no interest in his derriere or anyone else's for that matter. But when you see manure on here it has to be pointed out.

[Gav]

Don't need to go to Uni to do that.

I don't think you get it gav. Too stuck in the old left wing rut. Open your mind. We are past discussing rich a poor kids we are discussing levels of intelligence and relevant careers.

Never went to University did you Gordon point proven me thinks

[Amo]

What a waste of time, money and lives. All based on the ridiculous assumption that there is a God!!!

Obviously there's no room for God in your life, Gordon. That would mean worshiping someone other than yourself for a change.

[yoda]

I can assure all members that I have no interest in his derriere or anyone else's for that matter. But when you see manure on here it has to be pointed out.

Absolutely, this is a Blackburn Rovers MB

[imy9]

Pretty sure %age wise it will fall that way. To return to the days of my education Grammar school parents will almost always produce kids with a higher IQ than parents who filled up the secondary moderns. Just as two 6ft parents will produce taller kids than two 5ft parents. I will concede there are exceptions to every rule but even the exceptions are down to the genetics of previous generations. Didn't you study biology as a single subject imy?

Have you got any research to back up this notion? Personal experience plus working in schools where high proportion of pupils are from poor backgrounds has shown me it's lack of opportunities not intelligence that is the problem.

A little anecdote. I know someone who was told that he didn't need to take a higher paper in maths (intermediate only went to a B grade) because what would he need Maths for in his future career? Senior leader in a school in charge of data now. Still grates him to this day that a Grade B is on his CV. Minus a grant he would not have gone to uni.

[ultrablue]

No suprise when Thenodrog comes up with completely unfounded talk of genetics. It was only a little while ago that he said black people were genetically more prone to violence.

[broadsword]

http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate

breaking a self imposed posting ban to share that cartoon.

From what I've read, intelligence isn't a fixed attribute like height. Barring the top few percent and bottom few percent of the population, the rest can improve their intelligence and rise just about as high as they like. It all depends on their mindset and stimulus and workrate. Kids shouldn't be consigned to the dustbin on the basis of their backgrounds.

Where on earth the costings come from for these tuition fees Christ alone knows. I suspect it has less to do with the cost of provision and more to do with charging what they can get away with. There's no doubt I'd be put off applying for a place on that basis. Who needs the millstone of a five figure debt in their early twenties?

I know for a fact that rich kids at Cambridge get given a five figure allowance per year as flash money to live on from their parents. It's nothing to them. For the rest of us, the fees are a lifelong debt that's an anchor dragging us back. Where's the incentive for people to make the best of themselves? If everyone in this country had an attitude of working to improve themselves we'd be flying. Yet with house prices gone mad and university expensive, what hope is there for today's youth?

A quality degree is an investment for both the individual and the country

We can't afford to let university be the sole preserve of the wealthy because I can assure you, there's plenty of thick rich kids out there

[Steve Moss]

Sounds like education snobbery to me, going to university is more than just about the course you’re studying its about meeting new people with different outlooks on life and views. Its about moving to a different town and city in most cases and experiencing different things.

It doesn’t matter what you’re studying it should never be one rule for one and one rule for another in terms on finance, that favours the rich kids, the Tory way.

Experiencing life is all well and good, but asking the taxpayer to subsidize one's effort to "meet new people . . ." is a bridge too far.

And personally, I'm much more willing to contribute towards a bright young person's degree in fields like medicine, engineering or teaching, then I am one of the next to worthless degrees, like art or gender studies. If one wants to study art, fine. But don't ask society to pay for it.

[thenodrog]

No suprise when Thenodrog comes up with completely unfounded talk of genetics. It was only a little while ago that he said black people were genetically more prone to violence.

Where?

[thenodrog]

http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate

breaking a self imposed posting ban to share that cartoon.

From what I've read, intelligence isn't a fixed attribute like height. Barring the top few percent and bottom few percent of the population, the rest can improve their intelligence and rise just about as high as they like. It all depends on their mindset and stimulus and workrate. Kids shouldn't be consigned to the dustbin on the basis of their backgrounds.

Where on earth the costings come from for these tuition fees Christ alone knows. I suspect it has less to do with the cost of provision and more to do with charging what they can get away with. There's no doubt I'd be put off applying for a place on that basis. Who needs the millstone of a five figure debt in their early twenties?

I know for a fact that rich kids at Cambridge get given a five figure allowance per year as flash money to live on from their parents. It's nothing to them. For the rest of us, the fees are a lifelong debt that's an anchor dragging us back. Where's the incentive for people to make the best of themselves? If everyone in this country had an attitude of working to improve themselves we'd be flying. Yet with house prices gone mad and university expensive, what hope is there for today's youth?

A quality degree is an investment for both the individual and the country

We can't afford to let university be the sole preserve of the wealthy because I can assure you, there's plenty of thick rich kids out there

Careful mate that chip on your shoulder is growing so fast it will do you a mischief.

All summed up here......"I know for a fact that rich kids at Cambridge get given a five figure allowance per year as flash money to live on from their parents. It's nothing to them. For the rest of us, the fees are a lifelong debt that's an anchor dragging us back. Where's the incentive for people to make the best of themselves?"

1. In my experience a big allowance is not conducive to studying. Quite the opposite in fact.

2. That's surely all the incentive a kid with ambition needs.

I had a relatively poor upbringing albeit in a middle class area where there were lots of kids around with wealthy parents. Sports cars for reaching the age of 18 or 21 was almost normal. In comparison my first car was a 10 year old mini van. My parents never owned a house and we lived in a rented property hence inheritance tax has never even figured on the horizon. I've had nothing handed on a plate since. BUT my upbringing provided an incentive rather than a disincentive by giving me an intense desire to match those kids and in the majority of cases better them. I didn't see it as an anchor as you do broadsword, I saw it as a launch pad. I suggest you do similar.

Experiencing life is all well and good, but asking the taxpayer to subsidize one's effort to "meet new people . . ." is a bridge too far.

And personally, I'm much more willing to contribute towards a bright young person's degree in fields like medicine, engineering or teaching, then I am one of the next to worthless degrees, like art or gender studies. If one wants to study art, fine. But don't ask society to pay for it.

Indeed. Art is a hobby in my book.

[Gav]

Experiencing life is all well and good, but asking the taxpayer to subsidize one's effort to "meet new people . . ." is a bridge too far.

And personally, I'm much more willing to contribute towards a bright young person's degree in fields like medicine, engineering or teaching, then I am one of the next to worthless degrees, like art or gender studies. If one wants to study art, fine. But don't ask society to pay for it.

Plenty of towns across America that would benefit significantly from its inhabitants leaving for a period of time, I bet the US tax payers would be more than happy to foot the bill.

Its the same here to a lesser extent, you learn very little if you mix with the same people from the same area all your life in my opinion.

[Steve Moss]

Indeed. Art is a hobby in my book.

Exactly what my grandfather said. And he was quite the talented artist. Started out as an enlisted man in the Army (cavalry, when they still had horses), fought in two wars (artillery, as cavalry was phased out by WWII), became an officer despite not having a university degree, and eventually retired as a Colonel. And he sketched and painted (water colors and oils) every evening. He said it calmed him. He was accepted to the University of Paris Art School after WWII, but my grandmother turned up pregnant so marriage and career became more important that pursuing art. After he retired from the military, he started his own business and did quite well. Died at 88, but told me his one regret is that he didn't retire and go live in a shack on the beach at age 75 (which he thought was a proper retirement age, though he didn't) to paint sunrises and sunsets, but art's a hobby for a man with responsibilities.

Personally, I think he should have gone to that beach at 75. By then he'd have earned it if anyone had. Instead, his brain stayed intact and he worked till the day he died (fell down the stairs, broke his hip and couldn't get to the phone- the one weekend all his children and grandchildren were out of town for one reason or the other; he didn't make it).

Plenty of towns across America that would benefit significantly from its inhabitants leaving for a period of time, I bet the US tax payers would be more than happy to foot the bill.

Its the same here to a lesser extent, you learn very little if you mix with the same people from the same area all your life in my opinion.

America is rather a large place. And car ownership is very common. We get around quite a bit. And the traveler pays for his or her own gas, not the government.

Yes, you Europeans travel to foreign countries. Big deal. You could drop several of your foreign countries in just one of our states. My county alone is larger by a third than Wales. You traveling to France is the equivalent of me visiting California.

[Gav]

America is rather a large place. And car ownership is very common. We get around quite a bit. And the traveler pays for his or her own gas, not the government.

Yes, you Europeans travel to foreign countries. Big deal. You could drop several of your foreign countries in just one of our states. My county alone is larger by a third than Wales. You traveling to France is the equivalent of me visiting California.

I know I've driven across, probably seen more of it than you Steve, visited many places, small town America, and believe me they need to get out and experience what real life is like, what real people are like, in fact leaving the country would benefit them more!