[Archived] The General Election 2015

[Baz]

I think the GOP is, at it's best, the party of logic and reason.

Gun ownership is the right of a free people.

And travel is travel and people are people. I've been to Asia and I've been to Europe. I've enjoyed my trips to Europe. The people are, for the most part, very pleasant. But, at the end of the day, North America has everything and there is very little to attract one to go overseas, unless it's to watch the Rovers or a soccer tournament.

Doesn't have everything though does it, North America?

[ABBEY]

See above baz see sbove

[Gav]

But, at the end of the day, North America has everything and there is very little to attract one to go overseas, unless it's to watch the Rovers or a soccer tournament.

Agree with that Steve, it's s beautiful country full of wonderful national parks, beaches, mountains and the odd bit of history.

I can understand why Americans stay at home.

[JBiz]

Two things that are a result of the election that I find many people should be critical of;

1. Changing in points grades of creative arts and vocational level 2 and 3 courses will lead to schools and colleges removing them. Drama, dance, music, media, photography etc will be seen as "none ebacc" or fundable 2018.

2. Fox hunting. Need I say more?

[ultrablue]

Where?

Hmmm..... Seems you've stumbled onto something there ultrablue. Are the 'social' reasons just as complex right across Africa and in the US too? Because unless those social reasons are exactly the same as here then it suggests genetics could be a more likely contributory factor.

There.

Anyway it may well be proven that genetics does play some part in intelligence, all things being equal. But thats the thing. Things have never and will never be equal. Circumstances will always trump any genetic quirk. Opportunities and expectations are the overiding factors when it comes to academic success. If your parents went to university, you are likely to go too. Not because of any genetic programming but because they have the ability and the inclination to support you.

As for the subjects people choose to study, I agree with Gav. Uni is about learning so much more than just your chosen field. It exposes you to people and ideas you just don't get anywhere else. I'm still paying back the loans I got for my degrees. Neither led directly to a job in that field but I don't regret either of them. It made me the person I am today. The loan repayment comes out of my bank account like any other tax, after i met the salary threshold.

The governments role should be to make uni accessable to all those with the ability to complete a degree. In this way the system of loans we have today works quite well, as long as the tuition fees are capped. I'm not a fan of some unis setting their own fees, being elitist and pricing people out. All degrees should cost the same, all unis should as well.

Now if the government wants to provide extra support for those studying degrees leading to shortage jobs, then that makes perfect sense too. Scholarships are a win win situation. If someone is from a less well off background and wants to go to uni, the government can help by investing in them. The country will reap the benefits later.

Higher education is not the problem in the UK. We excel in that area. It is primary and secondary where we are failing. So many are leaving school at 16 without the basics.

[Mike E]

One thing UKIP certainly have right (imo) is the reintroduction of Grammar schools with grants for those who are academically excellent from poor backgrounds.

QEGS becoming a free school (without the entrance exam) is going to see it's standards fall. It had already slipped behind Westholme and CRG in my last year's there :/

[Lancs Rover]

One thing UKIP certainly have right (imo) is the reintroduction of Grammar schools with grants for those who are academically excellent from poor backgrounds.

QEGS becoming a free school (without the entrance exam) is going to see it's standards fall. It had already slipped behind Westholme and CRG in my last year's there :/

Not sure I agree with your opinion of Grammar schools, Mike, but QEGS is definitely not the school it was, that's for certain.

I'm a supply teacher and have worked in dozens of schools, literally, over the years. Secondary education is based on a very narrow economic understanding of what makes people tick. It doesn't encourage a critical perspective and this is leading to a docile, manipulable class of citizen with fewer motivations beyond consumption, now an ultimate goal for many.

We also live in an age of occupational precariousness. So anyone who is further down the social ladder is being short changed by the system all round especially as work becomes less central to our identity and simply instrumental to our short term needs. Neither work nor education are the way out of deprivation that they used to be.

Anyone with a sense of history from the Blackburn area can see the effects of this erosion of the social compact. As you mentioned, QEGS currently is but one example. Many schools now are just one big pension plan with fewer ideals than most people realise.

[Mike E]

Not sure I agree with your opinion of Grammar schools, Mike, but QEGS is definitely not the school it was, that's for certain.

I'm a supply teacher and have worked in dozens of schools, literally, over the years. Secondary education is based on a very narrow economic understanding of what makes people tick. It doesn't encourage a critical perspective and this is leading to a docile, manipulable class of citizen with fewer motivations beyond consumption, now an ultimate goal for many.

We also live in an age of occupational precariousness. So anyone who is further down the social ladder is being short changed by the system all round especially as work becomes less central to our identity and simply instrumental to our short term needs. Neither work nor education are the way out of deprivation that they used to be.

Anyone with a sense of history from the Blackburn area can see the effects of this erosion of the social compact. As you mentioned, QEGS currently is but one example. Many schools now are just one big pension plan with fewer ideals than most people realise.

Tbh I can see what you mean. I'm one of the luckier ones in that when I start as a ft teacher (doing supply for a year before looking at my NQT year), I'll earn just shy of my parents' combined wages.

One thing we've been encouraged to do on placement is get kids even at an early age (year 2) to question and criticise opinion pieces and even their own thoughts.

Tangent time:

I liked the recent report of a school with twice the average chn on pupil premium which now has +95% of kids at level 4 and above. This particular school goes full-on with their forest school to the extent kids of 8 and 9 can be trusted to look after weaponry when clay-pigeon shooting, to set up and cook on an open-fire and even care for water buffalo on school grounds.

[imy9]

One thing UKIP certainly have right (imo) is the reintroduction of Grammar schools with grants for those who are academically excellent from poor backgrounds.

QEGS becoming a free school (without the entrance exam) is going to see it's standards fall. It had already slipped behind Westholme and CRG in my last year's there :/

Birmingham Schools have introduced something already Mike. Pupil premium kids (kids from extremely poor backgrounds) won't have to score as high a mark and will get 30 places at the King Edward schools. Has started this year.

[Lancs Rover]

Tbh I can see what you mean. I'm one of the luckier ones in that when I start as a ft teacher (doing supply for a year before looking at my NQT year), I'll earn just shy of my parents' combined wages.

One thing we've been encouraged to do on placement is get kids even at an early age (year 2) to question and criticise opinion pieces and even their own thoughts.

Tangent time:

I liked the recent report of a school with twice the average chn on pupil premium which now has +95% of kids at level 4 and above. This particular school goes full-on with their forest school to the extent kids of 8 and 9 can be trusted to look after weaponry when clay-pigeon shooting, to set up and cook on an open-fire and even care for water buffalo on school grounds.

Hope the career goes well, Mike. Despite all the issues, in the classroom, the satisfaction is unbeatable at times.

[jim mk2]

I think the GOP is, at it's best, the party of logic and reason.

Gun ownership is the right of a free people.

And travel is travel and people are people. I've been to Asia and I've been to Europe. I've enjoyed my trips to Europe. The people are, for the most part, very pleasant. But, at the end of the day, North America has everything and there is very little to attract one to go overseas, unless it's to watch the Rovers or a soccer tournament.

The GOP are inhuman.

Gun ownership is insane - look at your record on killings.

The sentence in bold is just plain silly.

[thenodrog]

One thing UKIP certainly have right (imo) is the reintroduction of Grammar schools with grants for those who are academically excellent from poor backgrounds.

QEGS becoming a free school (without the entrance exam) is going to see it's standards fall. It had already slipped behind Westholme and CRG in my last year's there :/

Thouight qegs entrance exam was just to allow in thick rich kids. Pretty sure it was in my time.

[T J Hooker]

North America don't do steak pudding ,chips , mushy peas and gravy ,with tea cake and a can of fizzy Vimto

I hope you meant steak and Kidney Pud! (just steak is fur wusses)

[Al]

Try googling growth mindset as a starting point.

Linked to the poverty angle, read a study a while back which stated that the stresses that poverty caused resulted in the brain not able to function at a higher level (or something to this effect). I'll try to dig it out.

http://www.journeytoexcellence.org.uk/resourcesandcpd/research/summaries/rslearnableintelligence.asp

http://www.apa.org/research/action/smarter.aspx

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/how-hereditary-can-intelligence-be-studies-show-nurture-at-least-as-important-as-nature-a-716614.htmldoes it say that intelligence

Done my googling. Have you read the literature I suggested or are you not interested in anything that does not fit with your theory?

I have read some of your stuff and nowhere does it say that intelligence is not inborn. It says that it can be improved but surely someone born intelligent can also be improved so the child with an inborn intelligence given the same education will always win. Any other conclusion is just twisting the facts to suit your argument.

[yoda]

I hope you meant steak and Kidney Pud! (just steak is fur wusses)

That's an offal post

[Al]

There.

Anyway it may well be proven that genetics does play some part in intelligence, all things being equal. But thats the thing. Things have never and will never be equal. Circumstances will always trump any genetic quirk. Opportunities and expectations are the overiding factors when it comes to academic success. If your parents went to university, you are likely to go too. Not because of any genetic programming but because they have the ability and the inclination to support you.

As for the subjects people choose to study, I agree with Gav. Uni is about learning so much more than just your chosen field. It exposes you to people and ideas you just don't get anywhere else. I'm still paying back the loans I got for my degrees. Neither led directly to a job in that field but I don't regret either of them. It made me the person I am today. The loan repayment comes out of my bank account like any other tax, after i met the salary threshold.

The governments role should be to make uni accessable to all those with the ability to complete a degree. In this way the system of loans we have today works quite well, as long as the tuition fees are capped. I'm not a fan of some unis setting their own fees, being elitist and pricing people out. All degrees should cost the same, all unis should as well.

Now if the government wants to provide extra support for those studying degrees leading to shortage jobs, then that makes perfect sense too. Scholarships are a win win situation. If someone is from a less well off background and wants to go to uni, the government can help by investing in them. The country will reap the benefits later.

Higher education is not the problem in the UK. We excel in that area. It is primary and secondary where we are failing. So many are leaving school at 16 without the basics.

And there is the problem with the government paying for people to educate people in necessary jobs and medicine. The first thing they do is to go abroad to work to make more money and this country gets no payback.

[yoda]

And there is the problem with the government paying for people to educate people in necessary jobs and medicine. The first thing they do is to go abroad to work to make more money and this country gets no payback.

I would also question how this would work In ultrablue's post,

"The governments role should be to make uni accessable to all those with the ability to complete a degree"

How do you determine that prior to taking the degree course.

[ABBEY]

I hope you meant steak and Kidney Pud! (just steak is fur wusses)

Kidney I thought was a gimme

[imy9]

Done my googling. Have you read the literature I suggested or are you not interested in anything that does not fit with your theory?

I have read some of your stuff and nowhere does it say that intelligence is not inborn. It says that it can be improved but surely someone born intelligent can also be improved so the child with an inborn intelligence given the same education will always win. Any other conclusion is just twisting the facts to suit your argument.

Define intelligence. If you have never taken an IQ test or been to school how do you know how intelligent that person is? My parents are illiterate and have never been to school, so how have both their kids been to university?

The Flynn stuff is interesting but would you like to summarise his thoughts?

This is what I took out of it. ..

Your genes give you a maximum potential height, but if you are undernourished during childhood, or suffer from disease or parasites, you won't reach that potential: the equivalent is true of the brain, as well as the rest of the body.

So opportunity is key. Coming from a rich background will ensure that your brain has the opportunity to reach it's potential.

The growth mindset stuff is pretty new and as with most things around Science things evolve and change so I'd be interested to see any current research.

My argument is that pupils with potential, coming from a poor background will not realise their potential and go to university because of what the Tories have done. Clearly having parents who are intelligent has an influence on the kid being intelligent, however external factors have just as much an influence on the development of the child.

I'm very open Al to most things as I don't have a fixed mindset but a growth mindset

[yoda]

Define intelligence. If you have never taken an IQ test or been to school how do you know how intelligent that person is? My parents are illiterate and have never been to school, so how have both their kids been to university?

The Flynn stuff is interesting but would you like to summarise his thoughts?

This is what I took out of it. ..

Your genes give you a maximum potential height, but if you are undernourished during childhood, or suffer from disease or parasites, you won't reach that potential: the equivalent is true of the brain, as well as the rest of the body.

So opportunity is key. Coming from a rich background will ensure that your brain has the opportunity to reach it's potential.

The growth mindset stuff is pretty new and as with most things around Science things evolve and change so I'd be interested to see any current research.

My argument is that pupils with potential, coming from a poor background will not realise their potential and go to university because of what the Tories have done. Clearly having parents who are intelligent has an influence on the kid being intelligent, however external factors have just as much an influence on the development of the child.

I'm very open Al to most things as I don't have a fixed mindset but a growth mindset

Who introduced tuition fees ?

[Al]

Define intelligence. If you have never taken an IQ test or been to school how do you know how intelligent that person is? My parents are illiterate and have never been to school, so how have both their kids been to university?

The Flynn stuff is interesting but would you like to summarise his thoughts?

This is what I took out of it. ..

Your genes give you a maximum potential height, but if you are undernourished during childhood, or suffer from disease or parasites, you won't reach that potential: the equivalent is true of the brain, as well as the rest of the body.

So opportunity is key. Coming from a rich background will ensure that your brain has the opportunity to reach it's potential.

The growth mindset stuff is pretty new and as with most things around Science things evolve and change so I'd be interested to see any current research.

My argument is that pupils with potential, coming from a poor background will not realise their potential and go to university because of what the Tories have done. Clearly having parents who are intelligent has an influence on the kid being intelligent, however external factors have just as much an influence on the development of the child.

I'm very open Al to most things as I don't have a fixed mindset but a growth mindset

Now that is a completely different argument. Kids from poor backgrounds don't get the same chances as the rich kids. I'll agree there. Whether or not it's the Conservative or the Labour government's fault I don't know but it has nothing to do with genetic intelligence. I also don't know whether schoolkids get standard IQ tests or not these days. When I was young an IQ test was part of the 11 plus exam and standard for everyone (I passed). At 25 I took another IQ test and came out with a score of 140. I would agree that intelligent kids from all walks of life should be nurtured and given the chance of further education in the right subjects but they should have to work in this country at least for a while if they have had grants.

I take what you say about having a growth mindset but that's only theory is it not?

[yoda]

Now that is a completely different argument. Kids from poor backgrounds don't get the same chances as the rich kids. I'll agree there. Whether or not it's the Conservative or the Labour government's fault I don't know but it has nothing to do with genetic intelligence. I also don't know whether schoolkids get standard IQ tests or not these days. When I was young an IQ test was part of the 11 plus exam and standard for everyone (I passed). At 25 I took another IQ test and came out with a score of 140. I would agree that intelligent kids from all walks of life should be nurtured and given the chance of further education in the right subjects but they should have to work in this country at least for a while if they have had grants.

I take what you say about having a growth mindset but that's only theory is it not?

In my experience it also applies to the practical aspects as well

[thenodrog]

Birmingham Schools have introduced something already Mike. Pupil premium kids (kids from extremely poor backgrounds) won't have to score as high a mark and will get 30 places at the King Edward schools. Has started this year.

Isn't that discriminatory?

[yoda]

Isn't that discriminatory?

Sounds like dumbing down as well, letting people pass at a lower level, I find that rather worrying, just imagine,

"this is your brain surgeon for your tumour operation, he qualified at a lower level because he came from an extremely poor background, don't worry though everything should be OK."

Or,

"your plane today is using software developed by people who gained a degree at a lower level because they came from an extremely poor background but don't worry" sentence not finished, cue mad scramble as hostess crushed by people making for the exits

reminds me of the current VW ads

[thenodrog]

No suprise when Thenodrog comes up with completely unfounded talk of genetics. It was only a little while ago that he said black people were genetically more prone to violence.

Ah now I remember ultrablue. Unfortunately you have chosen to quote my post out of context in an obvious attempt to discredit me. In reality my post was expounding on and in response to the one you made where it was YOU who initially proposed the "young and black" insinuation regarding the statistics surrounding violent crime.

Here let's view them as they were posted at the time......

They don't integrate well? What has this story got to do with integration? These gang members could be 3rd ot 4th generation immigrants. They are as British as you or me.

What exactly does integration into British society mean to you? Does it mean you have to be successful and not commit crime? Crime is somehow not in our nations character? Because violent crime was a problem in Britain long before these guys' families came over.

Crime rates amongst young black men are comparatively high. But there are complex social reasons for that. I'd be interested to hear what factors you think they are. Surely it's not just that they are young and black.

Hmmm..... Seems you've stumbled onto something there ultrablue. Are the 'social' reasons just as complex right across Africa and in the US too? Because unless those social reasons are exactly the same as here then it suggests genetics could be a more likely contributory factor.

Reads somewhat different now I'd suggest? I shall await your apology but I won't be holding my breath.