[Archived] The General Election 2015

[Al]

I'm not sure where thenodrog comes into this? It was ABBEY who butted in to our discussion about foreign trained doctors so I'm not sure how you then jump to making the above post.

This seems to have far more to do with ABBEY'S desire to have a one line pop. As ABBEY moved from Abbey Village, which is about as multi-cultural as Wheelton, he obviously made a choice re the neighbourhood he wishes to live in.

Sorry Paul. My mistake.

[ABBEY]

ABBEY could you explain the relevance of your remark "Multi Cultural Wheelton" to a discussion on the number of foreign trained doctors in the UK? It has nothing to do whatsoever with multi-culturalism.

As for not having a chip on your shoulder I haven't suggested you have but judging by your response it seems I'm probably wrong.

Abbey Village wasn't expensive 30 years ago from what I recall as it roughly coincides with when we bought our house.

multi culturing .. Even your not that stupid not understand it.

It may not have been too expensive for you it was for me!

Chip or not it's better than thinking I'm a cut above like you do with your snobby views .

[T J Hooker]

And what about al, theno and yodas many snobby and also arrogant views about everything, why aren't you having a go at them

[ABBEY]

And what about al and thenos many snobby views about everything, why aren't you havingva go at them

talk English

[T J Hooker]

Your allrieght abbey, but i much prefered the abbey ftom the last couple of weeks.x

[Al]

talk English

[T J Hooker]

🌝

[Paul]

multi culturing .. Even your not that stupid not understand it.

It may not have been too expensive for you it was for me!

Chip or not it's better than thinking I'm a cut above like you do with your snobby views .

Just face it ABBEY you wanted to have a pop. I don't care, it's boring and unoriginal because you can't find another thing to say.

This place gets worse by the day. I try to discuss something with Al, and there isn't much he and I agree on, but no it always has to drop to this level.

Have a look back at your recent posts in this thread think about whose behaviour is questionable.

There's no point really

[ABBEY]

And I'm boring

[yoda]

And what about al, theno and yodas many snobby and also arrogant views about everything, why aren't you having a go at them

You say that about anyone who has a different opinion to you, then you PM them with abuse, then put them on block so they can't reply to you

[T J Hooker]

Me thinks you have that backwards, althpugh i do have yoy on block, because your a sh## stirrer that does a lot of his stirring behind the scenes via pm as you are bit of a weasle.

Anyway thats miserable monday done with, I'll be on my bestest a behaviour for the rest of the week(honest)

[Gav]

Should I tell you what made me finally make me move to a house that I really could not afford? One of my neighbours (a few doors away) told me that an Asian had knocked on his door, out of the blue, and made him a poor offer for his house. He of course refused. The man then told him that in that case he would go and buy next door and therefore devalue his house because he would have an Asian living next door. That was enough for me so I sold up and moved.

Yes I've heard of the door knocking and money in carrier bags, happened to my great grandad who lived on Randel Street.

Like I said I respect your viewpoint because you've got 1st hand experience, but it doesn't mean I agree of course.

Where did you live Al? Was it off Whalley Range?

[yoda]

Me thinks you have that backwards, althpugh i do have yoy on block, because your a sh## stirrer that does a lot of his stirring behind the scenes via pm as you are bit of a weasle.

Anyway thats miserable monday done with, I'll be on my bestest a behaviour for the rest of the week(honest)

No, that is exactly what you do TJ and I have saved them for posterity

[Tom]

Keep the discussion up - can we refrain from getting personal please.

[ultrablue]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/foreign-students-will-be-banned-from-working-in-the-uk-and-forced-to-leave-as-soon-as-they-finish-course-under-theresa-mays-tough-new-visa-rules-10385232.html

Depressingly predictable. They have to be seen to be acting on immigration, but they are ultimately damaging the country. Instead of doing the leg work and targeting the problem colleges directly, the government is painting all non-EU students with the broadest brush possible. This policy will rob the country of money and many talented, educated and hardworking people who may want to use their knowledge to pursue a career in the UK.

[thenodrog]

How would you tackle the problem ultrablue?

I must say in my experience most genuine overseas students come over here for their education and then disappear off home as soon as they graduate. Granted most appear to be from the wealthier classes as it isn't cheap but the figures in that article do suggest that there is a problem with many simply using it as an alternative way into the country.

[ultrablue]

Parts of the new policy seem legitimate. If there are fraudulent colleges that provide little education but a lot of advice on working the system then yes, they shouldn't be allowed to accept foreign students. This wouldn't stop capable students attending responsible universities.

But it's the new visa rules regarding work permits I strongly disagree with. Why punish those who legitimately want to use their education to work in the UK? Job hunting while waiting to graduate will be rendered pointless under that part of the policy. The government are making it more difficult for the UK to benefit from the talent attracted by its world class universities. Why make a system where the visa is given to the person who can wait the longest? Funny thing about qualified young graduates, they don't hang around for long.

Employers will miss out too. Say you want to hire the most qualified candidate, who happens to be a non-EU citizen. You have to wait for them to return home for the requiste period before they try to apply for the work visa from abroad. Would you wait? Or settle for the second tier candidate?

I have some personal experience of this. When I went back the Sheffield Uni to do my masters I was in a flat with a Nigerian doctor, a Saudi chemist and a Turkish civil engineer. It's 5 years after we all graduated and they all still work in the UK. The Nigerian is married to an Australian nurse whom he met in Sheffield, and he now works as a pediatrician in Manchester. They were given the opportunity to make a life for themselves in the UK and now they have a young son, my God son.

The new rules on work visas are just too broad, too lazy, and do nothing to help anyone in the long term.

[thenodrog]

"Long term"? As an aside I went to a graduation ceremony at Salford university and was amazed at the number of overseas students graduating in mainly technical and industrial subjects. I rem thinking our education system is chasing fools gold, we are educating the world when for the future good of our nation we should concentrate on educating our own and sending them out around the world (i dont know for certain but your own career may be a case in point). Global power and influence would naturally follow IMO.

[Lancs Rover]

Universities are businesses in all but name.

The idea of the public sector exclusively serving the public interest is outdated. The 'public sector' is a hybrid of private, public, third sector.

Universities couldn't survive without the income and expertise from overseas. A university employee recently told me that China's one child policy has been very good for our HE system and economy. It is seen as a family investment by four grandparents who only have one grandchild between them.

[ultrablue]

"Long term"? As an aside I went to a graduation ceremony at Salford university and was amazed at the number of overseas students graduating in mainly technical and industrial subjects. I rem thinking our education system is chasing fools gold, we are educating the world when for the future good of our nation we should concentrate on educating our own and sending them out around the world (i dont know for certain but your own career may be a case in point). Global power and influence would naturally follow IMO.

I think we should be doing both - and we have been doing. As the post above says, there is big money, as well as soft power in attracting talented students to come and study in the UK. There are also benefits to sending graduates abroad, as I was through the British Council. We are very lucky that the world still needs to learn English. But other countries are cottoning on to the benefits of recruiting international students and forging strong international links with other universities.

In my classes I teach at the local Science and Technology University I have students from central Asia, Europe, the Middle East and South America as well as China, Japan and Korea. Just 5 years ago this mix of nationalities would have been unheard of in Korea. They are all doing research in English and all want to work internationally. The world is catching up, and the UK can't see them coming.

[thenodrog]

I'll go with that markread. Good point. Im pretty sure our education system is perpetuating and increasing a class divide in developing countries too. Completely natural of course but maybe not something that will rest easily with our angry class warriors once they realise.

I think we should be doing both - and we have been doing. As the post above says, there is big money, as well as soft power in attracting talented students to come and study in the UK. There are also benefits to sending graduates abroad, as I was through the British Council. We are very lucky that the world still needs to learn English. But other countries are cottoning on to the benefits of recruiting international students and forging strong international links with other universities.

In my classes I teach at the local Science and Technology University I have students from central Asia, Europe, the Middle East and South America as well as China, Japan and Korea. Just 5 years ago this mix of nationalities would have been unheard of in Korea. They are all doing research in English and all want to work internationally. The world is catching up, and the UK can't see them coming.

Your final point is completely at odds with your opening two sentences.

[jim mk2]

Parts of the new policy seem legitimate. If there are fraudulent colleges that provide little education but a lot of advice on working the system then yes, they shouldn't be allowed to accept foreign students. This wouldn't stop capable students attending responsible universities.

But it's the new visa rules regarding work permits I strongly disagree with. Why punish those who legitimately want to use their education to work in the UK? Job hunting while waiting to graduate will be rendered pointless under that part of the policy. The government are making it more difficult for the UK to benefit from the talent attracted by its world class universities. Why make a system where the visa is given to the person who can wait the longest? Funny thing about qualified young graduates, they don't hang around for long.

Employers will miss out too. Say you want to hire the most qualified candidate, who happens to be a non-EU citizen. You have to wait for them to return home for the requiste period before they try to apply for the work visa from abroad. Would you wait? Or settle for the second tier candidate?

I have some personal experience of this. When I went back the Sheffield Uni to do my masters I was in a flat with a Nigerian doctor, a Saudi chemist and a Turkish civil engineer. It's 5 years after we all graduated and they all still work in the UK. The Nigerian is married to an Australian nurse whom he met in Sheffield, and he now works as a pediatrician in Manchester. They were given the opportunity to make a life for themselves in the UK and now they have a young son, my God son.

The new rules on work visas are just too broad, too lazy, and do nothing to help anyone in the long term.

Very good examples of why foreign students are good for this country.

The new visa rules are a classic example of the idiotic backward thinking of this government.

[ultrablue]

They are at odds thenodrog because the government could be about to change it all. We have been doing well. But policies like the one suggested show we are changing direction and the government can't see the damage its new rules could do.

[Al]

I'll go with that markread. Good point. Im pretty sure our education system is perpetuating and increasing a class divide in developing countries too. Completely natural of course but maybe not something that will rest easily with our angry class warriors once they realise.

Your final point is completely at odds with your opening two sentences.

Yes the world is catching up and passing us in some cases and we are educating them to do so. Germany are way past us. Would they have been there if we had not rebuilt Germany with all the most up to date technology after the war?

[Lancs Rover]

I'll go with that markread. Good point. Im pretty sure our education system is perpetuating and increasing a class divide in developing countries too. Completely natural of course but maybe not something that will rest easily with our angry class warriors once they realise.

This is the point I was trying to make a few posts back. It's the neo-liberal compact: we will give you a standard of living above what you need but you, in turn, are not expected to challenge the grounds upon which wealth is unequally distributed.

Schools and education generally plays a vital part in this mirage of a meritocratic society. They promote the idea that education is about getting certificates to get jobs. This is true but only partly because this exam-oriented view of education leaves out questioning and criticism. We churn out mainly docile individuals who believe in the meritocratic view of you get what you deserve. That cements into place the status quo, those at the top benefit especially because they can set the terms of the debate: what counts as education, work, the 'citizen' (and therefore the 'non-citizen'). Those at the bottom can be blamed for their status. (See the debate on immigration further up the thread.) And are. Look at UKIP and how they drove the Conservative train.

It's FFP for society. The government is the FA and the education system its arms-length proxy. There is still a chance of promotion, the boundaries are porous. This keeps people thinking they can break through into the big time. Some do. But for the majority, they will stay pretty much where they are. FUP.

You can see this in terms of health. The NHS was meant to equalise access to health care. Yet seventy years later, what is the biggest determinant of longevity? Income. Still. Even access to health intervention for all improvements in technology has made hardly any difference to that fact. (Sorry can't back it up with an exact reference but I have read up on it.) The NHS is just one big sticking plaster.

I recommend Guy Standing 'The Precariat'.

Look at the election results. People don't appear to want big change. Most people are happy with their tellies and mobile phones...

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