[Archived] Club PR is impying that 9th place is an achievement? Progression or Regression. Your thoughts?

[glen9mullan]

As Kamy has said , the accounts show major losses , however those losses are indeed misleading as the noose is around Venkys assets in India rather than rovers assets .

Also if you put things into perspective , Venkys also cleared ALL our Loans to Barclays by securing money against their own personal assets .

Weekly losses make rovers more than growing concern should Venkys stop funding the losses .

For this I'm grateful , although it's very much their own doing we are in this position.

Even now after another season of underachieving , we still have a youth team coach as the manager of a club which is the 9th most decorated in the history of the English game .

Even after 4 years mistakes are not being rectified .

Until this club has a competent board of Directors and a leader in the dugout , the team will continue to generate losses and fail to compete for promotion IMO

[Athlete]

MM has a point, that money has been used to keep the club going.

I would say that technically the club is already insolvent, i.e. it cannot meet its day to day running expenses and service the debt.

The only way the accounts can have been signed off is with assurances for the immediate future that outside finance is available.

If this were to stop the trap door opens.

It does not really matter what the existing cash injections have been secured against.

no matter where that outside cash is coming from or secured against the only way out of this mess is promotion of which a season as just been wasted..unless the venksters or any others involved dont want promotion for some unfathomable or illogical reason or............................................??????

As Kamy has said , the accounts show major losses , however those losses are indeed misleading as the noose is around Venkys assets in India rather than rovers assets .

Also if you put things into perspective , Venkys also cleared ALL our Loans to Barclays by securing money against their own personal assets .

Weekly losses make rovers more than growing concern should Venkys stop funding the losses .

For this I'm grateful , although it's very much their own doing we are in this position.

Even now after another season of underachieving , we still have a youth team coach as the manager of a club which is the 9th most decorated in the history of the English game .

Even after 4 years mistakes are not being rectified .

Until this club has a competent board of Directors and a leader in the dugout , the team will continue to generate losses and fail to compete for promotion IMO

so Glenn after all this time we don't have a competent board or leader in the dugout what in your opinion is venkys next move or why continue to secure any kind of funding against any of their assets as nothing makes sense

[chaddyrovers]

They were both high earners and subsequently loaned to la liga and Tours in France along with another significant signing Adam forshaw loaned to Boro to reduce the wage bill as well as kiernan to Birmingham as I said wigan dispensed with their scouting system and started purchasing via an agency does it sound familiar even when a player is signed on loan there's a signing on fee.. Hence who profits yes Mr ten percent..

I have very very good connections with people in the know at Wigan that's where my info comes from regarding them

Btw wigan did have an interest when they came down in JR but couldn't afford or weren't prepared to go anywhere near what Rovers would of even listened to they subsequently signed grant Holt

did Wigan dispensed with their scouting system when Mackay was manager?

has Gary Caldwell put that back into place?

Most likely but all isn't what it seems at Wigan they dispensed with their chief scouts started to use agents advice more.. An aging ailing DW and a young grandson in charge leaving an opening for people with hidden agendas if you get my drift certain members of coaching staff still in place after 3 managers etc

coaching staff? who do you mean?

[glen9mullan]

no matter where that outside cash is coming from or secured against the only way out of this mess is promotion of which a season as just been wasted..unless the venksters or any others involved dont want promotion for some unfathomable or illogical reason or............................................??????

so Glenn after all this time we don't have a competent board or leader in the dugout what in your opinion is venkys next move or why continue to secure any kind of funding against any of their assets as nothing makes sense

Retaining Rhodes and Gestede was a gamble on promotion .

Promotion has not happened ,

Football ultimately is a results business

Bowyer is a cracking guy , humble and all the things Steve Kean was not , however is that a reason for him to be the manager ?

IMO Venkys need to appoint in the next month or so a Manager to excite the fans and bring some much needed optimism . My choice would be Souness .

They then need to retain at least one of Rhodes or Gestede .

Good loans , I.e Derby county , Ince and Bent , Middlesbrough , Bamford

They then need to get bums on seats before too many more decide they have better things to do .

In reality though, they will probably persevere with Bowyer , persevere with the board and crowds will dwindle and in 12 months time we will be having the same discussions on BRFCS as we have for four years .

That they ain't got a clue what they are doing

[Athlete]

did Wigan dispensed with their scouting system when Mackay was manager?

has Gary Caldwell put that back into place?

coaching staff? who do you mean?

They dispensed with scouting system beginning of the season.. Gary Caldwell has been given a certain graham barrow as assistant not his choice graham barrow has been At Wigan under numerous managers and according to many down this a major part of the problem

Retaining Rhodes and Gestede was a gamble on promotion .

Promotion has not happened ,

Football ultimately is a results business

Bowyer is a cracking guy , humble and all the things Steve Kean was not , however is that a reason for him to be the manager ?

IMO Venkys need to appoint in the next month or so a Manager to excite the fans and bring some much needed optimism . My choice would be Souness .

They then need to retain at least one of Rhodes or Gestede .

Good loans , I.e Derby county , Ince and Bent , Middlesbrough , Bamford

They then need to get bums on seats before too many more decide they have better things to do .

In reality though, they will probably persevere with Bowyer , persevere with the board and crowds will dwindle and in 12 months time we will be having the same discussions on BRFCS as we have for four years .

That they ain't got a clue what they are doing

Good reply Glenn your bang on the money we'll having this debate in 12 months time still scratching our heads whilst the crowds dwindle to disastrous levels

[chaddyrovers]

They dispensed with scouting system beginning of the season.. Gary Caldwell has been given a certain graham barrow as assistant not his choice graham barrow has been At Wigan under numerous managers and according to many down this a major part of the problem

it's very strange that Wigan appointed Gary Caldwell as manager but he is given Graham Barrow as his number 2? you would have thought that Caldwell would have chosen his own number 2 tbh. isn't Eric Black also there on the coaching staff?

[Athlete]

it's very strange that Wigan appointed Gary Caldwell as manager but he is given Graham Barrow as his number 2? you would have thought that Caldwell would have chosen his own number 2 tbh. isn't Eric Black also there on the coaching staff?

yes 1st team coach..........Caldwell was very surprised to be given the job ( so obviously snatched their hand hand off ) but in a must win games he's gone on the field with his strikers sat on the bench..they got away with it V brighton ( law of averages possible after no home wins since Aug ) brought Fortune and McKay the striker signed from Inverness on with less than 10 minutes to go V Wolves losing 0-1 with their season all but over...

[chaddyrovers]

yes 1st team coach..........Caldwell was very surprised to be given the job ( so obviously snatched their hand hand off ) but in a must win games he's gone on the field with his strikers sat on the bench..they got away with it V brighton ( law of averages possible after no home wins since Aug ) brought Fortune and McKay the striker signed from Inverness on with less than 10 minutes to go V Wolves losing 0-1 with their season all but over...

so Caldwell didn't expect the job or want/apply for the job?

I thought Nigel Adkins would get the job at Wigan tbh

[Athlete]

so Caldwell didn't expect the job or want/apply for the job?

I thought Nigel Adkins would get the job at Wigan tbh

Caldwell had just retired as captain due to injury and was training the kids at John Rigby College.....Nigel Adkins their fans wanted would of been popular as an ex player

[Mercer]

As Kamy has said , the accounts show major losses , however those losses are indeed misleading as the noose is around Venkys assets in India rather than rovers assets .

Also if you put things into perspective , Venkys also cleared ALL our Loans to Barclays by securing money against their own personal assets .

Weekly losses make rovers more than growing concern should Venkys stop funding the losses .

For this I'm grateful , although it's very much their own doing we are in this position.

Even now after another season of underachieving , we still have a youth team coach as the manager of a club which is the 9th most decorated in the history of the English game .

Even after 4 years mistakes are not being rectified .

Until this club has a competent board of Directors and a leader in the dugout , the team will continue to generate losses and fail to compete for promotion IMO

That is incorrect.

I tried to explain in a couple of earlier posts today.

Rovers owe BOI something like £15million. The accounts show this. As borrower, Rovers are liable for this debt. It is that simple. Any qualified financial professional will tell you that.

[chris_h]

That is incorrect.

I tried to explain in a couple of earlier posts today.

Rovers owe BOI something like £15million. The accounts show this. As borrower, Rovers are liable for this debt. It is that simple. Any qualified financial professional will tell you that.

Hey Miseryman, the LT are reporting that David Raya has just signed a new contract. Is he the player at the centre of the Premier League story which 'broke' last week?

[glen9mullan]

That is incorrect.

I tried to explain in a couple of earlier posts today.

Rovers owe BOI something like £15million. The accounts show this. As borrower, Rovers are liable for this debt. It is that simple. Any qualified financial professional will tell you that.

Rovers owe nothing , you are mistaking Venkys borrowings from Rovers borrowings .

To date , Debt has been written off to share capital , clearly shown in the accounts .

Furthermore it's also stated in the accounts that there is no agreement in place for rovers to pay this money back to Venkys .

Things are bad , but not as you state regarding the accounts .

[Mercer]

Hey Miseryman, the LT are reporting that David Raya has just signed a new contract. Is he the player at the centre of the Premier League story which 'broke' last week?

Hey imbecile, no.

[chris_h]

Hey imbecile, no.

Right you are. This week then?

[Mercer]

Rovers owe nothing , you are mistaking Venkys borrowings from Rovers borrowings .

To date , Debt has been written off to share capital , clearly shown in the accounts .

Furthermore it's also stated in the accounts that there is no agreement in place for rovers to pay this money back to Venkys .

Things are bad , but not as you state regarding the accounts .

As a qualified accountant, I am advising you that you are wrong.

£40million of creditors at June 2014 were 'external' ie not owed to the holding company.

[Baz]

Rovers owe nothing , you are mistaking Venkys borrowings from Rovers borrowings .

To date , Debt has been written off to share capital , clearly shown in the accounts .

Furthermore it's also stated in the accounts that there is no agreement in place for rovers to pay this money back to Venkys .

Things are bad , but not as you state regarding the accounts .

Im pretty sure you are wrong Glen.

VLL are in debt, secured against assets in India, and BRFC are in debt too.

My FD (a Burnley fan) had great fun in telling me that the clubs recommened credit rating is 29 out of 100, and suggested by creditgate as "cash transactions only" i.e. Cash upfront - Dont lend them, give them credit terms, or allow them to pay you in 30/60/90 days time.

[glen9mullan]

http://www.roverstrust.com/2015/01/19/blackburn-rovers-accounts-reveal-true-financial-horror-venkys-regime/

Dan Grabko also a qualified accountant and as part of his analysis of the latest accounts , he states clearly that rovers debts are to Venkys

[Mercer]

Im pretty sure you are wrong Glen.

VLL are in debt, secured against assets in India, and BRFC are in debt too.

VLL is the holding company of Rovers.

None of the group's debt is secured against Indian assets.

What will be secured against Indian assets are guarantees from either Ven. Hatch. Pvt Limited or the Raos as directors / individuals or a combination of the two.

Additionally, if the Raos have borrowed money from BOI in order to finance issued share capital in VLL (think it's about £90million now) which keeps the football club afloat financially then this is highly likely to be secured against Indian assets. This is of great concern if so.

The bottom line is that BOI UK can come hunting for the monies lent directly to VLL / Rovers in the event of default (the accounts confirm that they reserve the right to take a debenture over Rovers' assets). This could lead to administration / liquidation.

[chaddyrovers]

I am very confident that Kamy and Glen are right.

Also havent Andy Neil and Philip have confirm pretty much the same thing as Kamy and Glen have said in podcasts we had on the accounts subject? (Might be wrong tho my apologises if I am)

[Baz]

http://www.roverstrust.com/2015/01/19/blackburn-rovers-accounts-reveal-true-financial-horror-venkys-regime/

Dan Grabko also a qualified accountant and as part of his analysis of the latest accounts , he states clearly that rovers debts are to Venkys

Yes, so as I stated, the club are in debt.

These are debts in Britain.

[Mercer]

http://www.roverstrust.com/2015/01/19/blackburn-rovers-accounts-reveal-true-financial-horror-venkys-regime/

Dan Grabko also a qualified accountant and as part of his analysis of the latest accounts , he states clearly that rovers debts are to Venkys

As far as I am aware, Dan does not hold a UK qualification.

I have challenged his observations / assumptions on this MB on more than one occasion.

I generally disagree with his analysis none more so than this ridiculous statement “The club could be self-supporting on a £20-25 million wage budget in the Championship, everything else being equal, and most likely maintain a comfortable mid-table position there".

I will stick with my own analysis / understanding.

I am very confident that Kamy and Glen are right.

Also havent Andy Neil and Philip have confirm pretty much the same thing as Kamy and Glen have said in podcasts we had on the accounts subject? (Might be wrong tho my apologises if I am)

Kamy and Glen are not financial experts.

As far as I am aware, neither Andy Neil or Philip have contradicted anything that I have said.

I would challenge any financial expert to disagree with what I have said on the club's finances or its structure today.

[davulsukur]

If Dan G is a member of the boards, perhaps it would be a good idea for him to come and have a chat with Mercer and Baz.
Get to the bottom of this? The accounts are right there in Black and white (or red in our case) surely there must be a definitive answer?

[K-Hod]

Davul has it right, I could do witb some clarification about who is right, all this accounting mumbo jumbo means nowt to me!!

[tomphil]

Is the 15m possibily the overdraft facility for day to day running of the club similar to the one with Barclays before the takeover ? If so and it's with the BOI UK you'd think that bit would have to be secured on UK assets perhaps. That'll be the thing that needs paying down now and again just like before although with the players and club it should be comfortably covered in the banks eyes.

[Mercer]

Is the 15m possibily the overdraft facility for day to day running of the club similar to the one with Barclays before the takeover ? If so and it's with the BOI UK you'd think that bit would have to be secured on UK assets perhaps. That'll be the thing that needs paying down now and again just like before although with the players and club it should be comfortably covered in the banks eyes.

The accounts tell you that:

"The bank overdraft is not secured over any of the company's assets, however, the bank reserves the right to ask for a debenture charge over the assets of the company during the life of the facility"

Should the bank take a debenture, it would set the alarm bells ringing.

As I have pointed out in earlier posts, I feel certain that the bank's debt has been secured through guarantees from (either / or / or both) Venk. Hatch. Pvt Limited (an Indian company) / the Raos as individuals - these guarantees seem to be secured guarantees (ie backed up by tangible security - charges on land in India). Normal practice is that a lender will first pursue the borrower for repayment of all its monies, interests and costs. At worst case, this could lead to the liquidation of the borrower. Guarantees are normally 'called-in' when all options for recovery of outstanding monies from the borrower have been exhausted.

Group accounts, ie where more than one company exists - in this case VLL is the holding company of Blackburn Rovers Football & Athletic PLC, are not easily understood by the untrained eye. Lending practice, third party guarantees (secured or otherwise) and debt recovery / insolvency are complex areas where situations can be easily misunderstood unless you have a proper understanding. Lawyers and accountants will both play a part in the process.