[Archived] Club PR is impying that 9th place is an achievement? Progression or Regression. Your thoughts?

[Parsonblue]

you sound like a venky plant

Why can't folk accept that there are a variety of views with regard to the club without accusing folk of being employed by the club or owners? It seems some simply can't cope with different viewpoints which, at the end of the day, is the point of a forum.

[ABBEY]

Thing is parson the venky have run aground up @#/? @#/? creek and people say they have learned . Things are not as rosy as some of you believe .

[Madon]

you sound like a venky plant

I'm certainly not a venky plant. It is my opinion, which I'm entitled to.

[K-Hod]

you sound like a venky plant

A couple of 'hopefullys' in there suggests otherwise....

Not quite sure why you think what you said, a bit childish if you ask me.

[JHRover]

I don't hold the view that a top ten finish is an 'achievement'. I firmly believe that this squad of players is/was capable of a higher league finish this season, although I am realistic enough to appreciate that things could also be a lot worse than they have been.

I look at the likes of Norwich, Middlesbrough and Derby who are all on course to miss out on automatic promotion, look at the amount of money they have spent this last 12 months and look at who they brought in to strengthen last summer/in January and ask myself would we be beating them in the play-offs?

If the only measure for this season was promotion, and our failure to deliver that one objective means that Bowyer and his staff have failed and deserve sacking, then I don't agree.

Would views be the same if we had finished 3rd and then lost in the play-offs? Because the outcome from this season would be exactly the same - Championship football next season.

It also seems that some people cannot cope with life as a mid-table side. Not being in the play-off mix and not having promotion or survival to fight for these last 6-7 games to some is football perjury. Again we need to realise that everyone from 9th down to 20th has 'nothing' to play for and are running the games down to the summer. I don't see other clubs' supporters in uproar at such a situation e.g. not bothering attending home games because we've 'nothing' left to play for. I'm also sure that all those other clubs would have been happy with our league position, an FA Cup QF and hammering 2 Premier League sides.

Of course if it was me paying the bills and losing £30 million a year to be ninth in the Championship I might think differently. I would understand if Venkys decided they wanted to change manager with the amount of money they are pouring away. That's their decision to make as owners. If they are happy to give Bowyer more time, a concept some seem incapable of coping with, then as the people putting millions of pounds a year keeping the club afloat that is their entitlement.

But as a supporter who has experienced the misery of the last 4 years I won't be calling for Bowyer's head for 'only' being 9th in the league and reaching a cup QF.

[Gav]

Venkys are learning nothing, you only need to look at the boardroom to realise that.

Bowyers target was the playoffs, it was well documented at the start of the season so by rights he should be sacked, Venkys won't sack him though because they're weak and because they've learnt nothing.

Shaw tried to sell Rhodes in January after instruction from the owners, he found a buyer, at the right price, and Venkys pulled the plug, meddling in footballing matters, they've learnt nothing.

VENKYS OUT!

you sound like a venky plant

You sound like a plant pot

[Mattyblue]

It also seems that some people cannot cope with life as a mid-table side. Not being in the play-off mix and not having promotion or survival to fight for these last 6-7 games to some is football perjury. Again we need to realise that everyone from 9th down to 20th has 'nothing' to play for and are running the games down to the summer. I don't see other clubs' supporters in uproar at such a situation e.g. not bothering attending home games because we've 'nothing' left to play for. I'm also sure that all those other clubs would have been happy with our league position, an FA Cup QF and hammering 2 Premier League sides.

I think the Championship is a 46 game grind and I miss the PL massively, however there is nothing wrong with being a mid table Championship side per se.

However, with our rising debts coupled with, I believe, a decent set of players for the league, fans are massively frustrated. With our income and dwindling fanbase, no fan believes we have a divine right to be up there, however we have blown the chance we DID have on poor managers, that chance will be just a memory once our best players are sold.

[JHRover]

Who did Shaw try to sell Rhodes to in January?

How do you know the owners instructed him to do this before pulling the plug?

The only evidence we have that promotion was the target this season was a statement on the club website in August when they rebuffed Hull's interest in Rhodes, stating that they wanted to keep him to help deliver promotion. I don't recall anyone from the owners down at any stage saying this season was promotion or bust or that failure to get promoted would see the axe fall.

Targeting the play-offs is something that half the division aims for at the start of a season. Only four clubs can achieve it and even then only one of those goes on to get promoted. There will always be numerous clubs who fail to achieve their 'target'.

If the outcome is Championship football next season there is little difference between finishing 3rd on 85 points or 9th on 65 points.

[Gav]

I'm 100% sure Gary Bowyer stated that promotion was the goal this season and that he'd told the owners that to. I've not got time to search through the telegraph site for the quotes. But if Bowyer said playoffs and he fails, he should be sacked shouldn't he?

It was well documented on here by people I trust that Shaw had negotiated a deal with Hull City, Steve Bruce actually stated he thought it was a done deal. That deal was pulled at the very last minute, hence Bruce slagging us off in the press,I don't think its even in dispute is it? Rhodes himself thought he was going.

So what point are you trying to make JH, that we shouldn't listen to rumours? venkys are doing a decent job?

[JHRover]

I think the Championship is a 46 game grind and I miss the PL massively, however there is nothing wrong with being a mid table Championship side per se.

However, with our rising debts coupled with, I believe, a decent set of players for the league, fans are massively frustrated. With our income and dwindling fanbase, no fan believes we have a divine right to be up there, however we have blown the chance we DID have on poor managers, that chance will be just a memory once our best players are sold.

I appreciate that if/when we sell our better players then the job becomes even harder. That's why I am eager for us to fight tooth and nail to retain our better players rather than sell them, which many on here seem to want us to do.

However, lets take a look at Bournemouth, Ipswich Watford and Brentford. None of those are blessed with massive support bases or infinite financial resources, yet under the correct management have managed to assemble very good sides on limited funds (albeit Bournemouth have spent considerably for a club of their size). None of those are in receipt of parachute money.

So I don't accept that this season was our 'only' chance. The nature of this crazy division means that almost every club has a chance at the start of the season.

I often draw close comparisons between us and Nottingham Forest.

We've both got foreign owners who have at best limited idea on how to run a football club from afar.

We both started this season with a 'target' of promotion, and have 'failed' by being mid-table throughout.

We've both been big spenders in this league over the last 3 years.

We've both had instability in terms of management throughout the club.

Consequently we've both lost a lot of money and have been put under a transfer embargo, and face those issues going forward.

The difference between us is that despite the embargo Forest fans will be looking forward to next season hoping they can improve on this season by keeping their squad intact and doing some wheeling and dealing. The fans will turn out in their numbers to support their club again. A new season, a clean slate etc.

Contrast to Rovers fans who simply can't cope with the situation, have spent months prophesising doom and misery, many seem to actively want our best players to leave, many will refuse to buy season tickets and support the club.

I'm struggling to work out the difference, except that many Forest fans from recent experiences know that things can easily be a lot worse, whereas many Rovers fans just can't cope with not being in the top flight.

Both clubs have debts and have lost a lot of money. That's not the supporters fault in either case, the supporters can do nothing but support their club as they have for generations.

[AggyBlue]

Bowyer is on record as saying 'No targets were set for this season'

When we were asked to submit questions to Bowyer earlier in the season, I asked what targets he had been set. That was how he answered.

[RibbleValleyRover]

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/12908433.Paul_Wheelock_column____300k_for_Rudy_Gestede_and_Craig_Conway_was_daylight_robbery/

LT promoting Bowyer's so called ability to get players on the cheap and make them worth more. This article is clearly designed to keep Bowyer in a job, 'Oh look Madame Desai Gary is increasing player value despite the limitations of a transfer embargo, isn't he doing such a great job!'.

A clued up owner would smell this as BS.

[Andyblue2]

Would views be the same if we had finished 3rd and then lost in the play-offs? Because the outcome from this season would be exactly the same - Championship football next season.

I would consider this to be a better season than finishing 10th and the last 6/7 games being completely nothing games, that would be a bit of progress

[DE.]

Would views be the same if we had finished 3rd and then lost in the play-offs? Because the outcome from this season would be exactly the same - Championship football next season.

Finishing 3rd would suggest genuine progress and a squad capable of competing with the best teams in the division, regardless of whether the season ended in promotion. Finishing 9th and worse off than the previous season suggests the opposite. It isn't that difficult to grasp, is it?

[JHRover]

I would consider this to be a better season than finishing 10th and the last 6/7 games being completely nothing games, that would be a bit of progress

Rovers

Forest

Leeds

Birmingham

Bolton

Reading

Charlton

Sheffield Wednesday

Brighton

Huddersfield

Cardiff

Fulham

We're not alone in having 'nothing' to play for in the last 6-7 games.

Interestingly nobody seemed to complain when we were mid-table Premier League and had nothing to play for at the end of the season once we had achieved survival, yet can't cope with it when we're in the Championship.

[ABBEY]

Sorry us tremblers are bad folk

[JHRover]

Finishing 3rd would suggest genuine progress and a squad capable of competing with the best teams in the division, regardless of whether the season ended in promotion. Finishing 9th and worse off than the previous season suggests the opposite. It isn't that difficult to grasp, is it?

The message I am picking up from several people on here is that the aim for this season was promotion and that this squad is capable of achieving that. Only because of Bowyer's failings have we missed out.

Now you're saying that had we finished 3rd and missed out on promotion that would be fine because we finished higher than last season.

I'm struggling to grasp what the criteria is for Bowyer to be judged here. Is it a case of promotion or he's failed? Or was merely an improvement on last seasons 8th place required for a worthwhile season?

So if we had finished this season 7th on 71 points would that be acceptable and sufficient to keep Bowyer? That would be progress/an improvement.

[K-Hod]

I appreciate that if/when we sell our better players then the job becomes even harder. That's why I am eager for us to fight tooth and nail to retain our better players rather than sell them, which many on here seem to want us to do.

However, lets take a look at Bournemouth, Ipswich Watford and Brentford. None of those are blessed with massive support bases or infinite financial resources, yet under the correct management have managed to assemble very good sides on limited funds (albeit Bournemouth have spent considerably for a club of their size). None of those are in receipt of parachute money.

So I don't accept that this season was our 'only' chance. The nature of this crazy division means that almost every club has a chance at the start of the season.

I often draw close comparisons between us and Nottingham Forest.

We've both got foreign owners who have at best limited idea on how to run a football club from afar.

We both started this season with a 'target' of promotion, and have 'failed' by being mid-table throughout.

We've both been big spenders in this league over the last 3 years.

We've both had instability in terms of management throughout the club.

Consequently we've both lost a lot of money and have been put under a transfer embargo, and face those issues going forward.

The difference between us is that despite the embargo Forest fans will be looking forward to next season hoping they can improve on this season by keeping their squad intact and doing some wheeling and dealing. The fans will turn out in their numbers to support their club again. A new season, a clean slate etc.

Contrast to Rovers fans who simply can't cope with the situation, have spent months prophesising doom and misery, many seem to actively want our best players to leave, many will refuse to buy season tickets and support the club.

I'm struggling to work out the difference, except that many Forest fans from recent experiences know that things can easily be a lot worse, whereas many Rovers fans just can't cope with not being in the top flight.

Both clubs have debts and have lost a lot of money. That's not the supporters fault in either case, the supporters can do nothing but support their club as they have for generations.

Are you on the wind up re the bits in bold??

Finances dictate promotion is our best way out of the mess we're in, hence the impatience. That's the only reason people 'can't cope' as you put it. Nonsense, we can't put up with our club being run into the ground, losing £2Million a month and having all this debt levied against the club we love.

Nothing to do with being in the top flight or not.

[Mattyblue]

On a normal matchday Forest have around 18/19000 on, we have 13000.

They have a much bigger catchment area, so I wouldn't say they 'turn out in numbers', same with Leeds, both clubs have thousands of fans that won't turn out for mid table Championship fayre, they just have a larger core fanbase.

[Gav]

I appreciate that if/when we sell our better players then the job becomes even harder. That's why I am eager for us to fight tooth and nail to retain our better players rather than sell them, which many on here seem to want us to do.

However, lets take a look at Bournemouth, Ipswich Watford and Brentford. None of those are blessed with massive support bases or infinite financial resources, yet under the correct management have managed to assemble very good sides on limited funds (albeit Bournemouth have spent considerably for a club of their size). None of those are in receipt of parachute money.

So I don't accept that this season was our 'only' chance. The nature of this crazy division means that almost every club has a chance at the start of the season.

I often draw close comparisons between us and Nottingham Forest.

We've both got foreign owners who have at best limited idea on how to run a football club from afar.

We both started this season with a 'target' of promotion, and have 'failed' by being mid-table throughout.

We've both been big spenders in this league over the last 3 years.

We've both had instability in terms of management throughout the club.

Consequently we've both lost a lot of money and have been put under a transfer embargo, and face those issues going forward.

The difference between us is that despite the embargo Forest fans will be looking forward to next season hoping they can improve on this season by keeping their squad intact and doing some wheeling and dealing. The fans will turn out in their numbers to support their club again. A new season, a clean slate etc.

Contrast to Rovers fans who simply can't cope with the situation, have spent months prophesising doom and misery, many seem to actively want our best players to leave, many will refuse to buy season tickets and support the club.

I'm struggling to work out the difference, except that many Forest fans from recent experiences know that things can easily be a lot worse, whereas many Rovers fans just can't cope with not being in the top flight.

Both clubs have debts and have lost a lot of money. That's not the supporters fault in either case, the supporters can do nothing but support their club as they have for generations.

I've been a Bowyer supporter for most of this season and only recently came to the conclusion that he's got to go. I've seen us in 3rd division, I've seen us in 2nd for years going nowhere, so that label can't be placed on me, we're not all success driven Jack Walker era types.

As for comparing us to Forest, you simply can't do that because we have 100m debt looming in the background that no matter how you slice things is a worry, a real worry.

Bowyer is on record as saying 'No targets were set for this season'

When we were asked to submit questions to Bowyer earlier in the season, I asked what targets he had been set. That was how he answered.

I could have sworn he said playoffs were the target and he'd told Venkys as much.

[JHRover]

'That's the only reason people 'can't cope' as you put it. Nonsense, we can't put up with our club being run into the ground, losing £2Million a month and having all this debt levied against the club we love.'

And what do you as a supporter propose to do about that? How is not buying tickets going to resolve that problem?

We can't sort out the debt or cut the losses. All we can do is keep supporting the club instead of just walking away.

[Andyblue2]

The message I am picking up from several people on here is that the aim for this season was promotion and that this squad is capable of achieving that. Only because of Bowyer's failings have we missed out.

Now you're saying that had we finished 3rd and missed out on promotion that would be fine because we finished higher than last season.

I'm struggling to grasp what the criteria is for Bowyer to be judged here. Is it a case of promotion or he's failed? Or was merely an improvement on last seasons 8th place required for a worthwhile season?

So if we had finished this season 7th on 71 points would that be acceptable and sufficient to keep Bowyer? That would be progress/an improvement.

You are spinning this mate....Is it not clear to you watching the lads this season that they are shiitter than last season...and our league position and points total would back this up.

[Rover_Shaun]

As this topic is really regarding targets and achieving them them or improving markedly in the event you don't here's a quote from when the Owners knocked back Hull's attempt to sign Jordan Rhodes before the start of the season

http://www.rovers.co.uk/news/article/statement-jordan-rhodes-1860372.aspx

We want to give Gary Bowyer and the team the best possible opportunity to get back to the top flight and Jordan has been and remains a significant part of that aim.

Where we in the top 6 then the aim would still be achievable. To then fail in the playoffs would be more then forgiveable because basically it's a crap shoot. But to be a country mile off the aim then to spin it as being a ferkin success just isn't cricket

[JHRover]

On a normal matchday Forest have around 18/19000 on, we have 13000.

They have a much bigger catchment area, so I wouldn't say they 'turn out in numbers', same with Leeds, both clubs have thousands of fans that won't turn out for mid table Championship fayre, they just have a larger core fanbase.

I understand that, but they will get those crowds in any Championship season, regardless of their hopes and expectations.

Rovers crowds by contrast are expected to drop significantly from the current 13,000 levels. Several thousand probably won't renew ahead of another Championship season.

[K-Hod]

'That's the only reason people 'can't cope' as you put it. Nonsense, we can't put up with our club being run into the ground, losing £2Million a month and having all this debt levied against the club we love.'

And what do you as a supporter propose to do about that? How is not buying tickets going to resolve that problem?

We can't sort out the debt or cut the losses. All we can do is keep supporting the club instead of just walking away.

Well I still have my season ticket, and am going to Huddersfield on Saturday, so I think you need to aim that elsewhere JH.....