[Archived] Club PR is impying that 9th place is an achievement? Progression or Regression. Your thoughts?

[Exiled in Toronto]

As this thread shows, debates about the manager's actual ability (not good enough imo) get muddied by unproven and unprovable assertions such as we needed promotion more than the others because of debt or "man for man" we were better than everyone else.

No-one on here knows how the debt is split between shareholders and external; who are the external parties; what the external debt is secured against; how big an issue it is to either party; and when, if ever, someone will call it in. The size of the debt is irrelevent to our survival, we are only worth 10-20 million anyway so it doesn't matter if its 21 million or 210 million; what matters is what the parties involved want to do about it. I have yet to see a shred of evidence, as opposed to outraged opinion, that we are any more or less likely to go into admin than any other club if we don't go up.

As for having a "better" squad, does anyone on here really have an in-depth knowledge of the abilities of the 500+ players that make up the squads of every other club in this league??? All I know is we have a bog standard goalie, a brittle set of centre backs, a powder-puff midfield and a sh!t-hot pair of strikers. If that's better than everyone else then whoever goes up will be back here in sixteen months anyway.

We have a tactically poor manager. And yes a lot of inconsistent players who lack backbone, issues their previous managers didn't fix either.

Personally I think Bowyer won't be sacked. It looks to me that he/Shaw sold them on a three-year plan and we are at the end of year 2. I imagine top 6 actually was a target for this season but it's probably spinnable that we can course correct. If we'd finished lower mid table I think they would have canned him, but not having spent a day out of the top half gives him a reprieve.

[mustard]

As this thread shows, debates about the manager's actual ability (not good enough imo) get muddied by unproven and unprovable assertions such as we needed promotion more than the others because of debt or "man for man" we were better than everyone else.

No-one on here knows how the debt is split between shareholders and external; who are the external parties; what the external debt is secured against; how big an issue it is to either party; and when, if ever, someone will call it in. The size of the debt is irrelevent to our survival, we are only worth 10-20 million anyway so it doesn't matter if its 21 million or 210 million; what matters is what the parties involved want to do about it. I have yet to see a shred of evidence, as opposed to outraged opinion, that we are any more or less likely to go into admin than any other club if we don't go up.

As for having a "better" squad, does anyone on here really have an in-depth knowledge of the abilities of the 500+ players that make up the squads of every other club in this league??? All I know is we have a bog standard goalie, a brittle set of centre backs, a powder-puff midfield and a sh!t-hot pair of strikers. If that's better than everyone else then whoever goes up will be back here in sixteen months anyway.

We have a tactically poor manager. And yes a lot of inconsistent players who lack backbone, issues their previous managers didn't fix either.

Personally I think Bowyer won't be sacked. It looks to me that he/Shaw sold them on a three-year plan and we are at the end of year 2. I imagine top 6 actually was a target for this season but it's probably spinnable that we can course correct. If we'd finished lower mid table I think they would have canned him, but not having spent a day out of the top half gives him a reprieve.

Funny thing is, the only reason we didn't drop out the top half is because of the dross below us. We went on a relegation run of form from December for a good couple of months, Bowyer was just lucky there are much worse teams in this league. The league is weaker this year, it's why there is such a clear top 8 this season, as they were able to dispatch of the lesser teams who can't keep up with the chasing pack. There's a reason we've only won 1 out of the 15 games vs the teams above us.

I dread to think where we'd have finished had we sold Rhodes in January.

[ABBEY]

As this thread shows, debates about the manager's actual ability (not good enough imo) get muddied by unproven and unprovable assertions such as we needed promotion more than the others because of debt or "man for man" we were better than everyone else.

No-one on here knows how the debt is split between shareholders and external; who are the external parties; what the external debt is secured against; how big an issue it is to either party; and when, if ever, someone will call it in. The size of the debt is irrelevent to our survival, we are only worth 10-20 million anyway so it doesn't matter if its 21 million or 210 million; what matters is what the parties involved want to do about it. I have yet to see a shred of evidence, as opposed to outraged opinion, that we are any more or less likely to go into admin than any other club if we don't go up.

As for having a "better" squad, does anyone on here really have an in-depth knowledge of the abilities of the 500+ players that make up the squads of every other club in this league??? All I know is we have a bog standard goalie, a brittle set of centre backs, a powder-puff midfield and a sh!t-hot pair of strikers. If that's better than everyone else then whoever goes up will be back here in sixteen months anyway.

We have a tactically poor manager. And yes a lot of inconsistent players who lack backbone, issues their previous managers didn't fix either.

Personally I think Bowyer won't be sacked. It looks to me that he/Shaw sold them on a three-year plan and we are at the end of year 2. I imagine top 6 actually was a target for this season but it's probably spinnable that we can course correct. If we'd finished lower mid table I think they would have canned him, but not having spent a day out of the top half gives him a reprieve.

You want to deal in facts then post your opinion which is not indeed factual (unless you can prove they have no backbone or prove the inner workings ) and not fact..way to go.

[imy9]

To absolve bowyer of any blame is just as potty

Parson hasn't though has he? It's the amount of blame that is the argument. Which will be more or less depending on how you see things. So your opinion. Back to the original point, there is no need to insult people, nor continually target them.

Let's all remember Venkys are the issue not fans.

[Proudtobeblue&white]

For what it's worth I feel there have been too many pivotal moments where the team/manager just haven't stepped up. Home form has been the biggest disappointment. I could take the early results, Rotherham away accepted, but December, when we were in touching distance of top 6, the Wednesday home game, Brentford away [my only away game bar Liverpool, and where we were taken apart], losing away at Notlob, Into the New Year and Wigan away when they were awful, and perhaps the worst result failing to beat an in free fall Blackpool.

I accept injuries, it is a part of the game, but I fear GB's motivational prowess is, and always has, been lacking.

But as Kamy says whether we like it or not he's going to be here next season.

I fear in that scenario, and with the loss of the Crown Jewels Bowyer will be found out, and it will be a long struggle for survival.

[tomphil]

As this thread shows, debates about the manager's actual ability (not good enough imo) get muddied by unproven and unprovable assertions such as we needed promotion more than the others because of debt or "man for man" we were better than everyone else.

No-one on here knows how the debt is split between shareholders and external; who are the external parties; what the external debt is secured against; how big an issue it is to either party; and when, if ever, someone will call it in. The size of the debt is irrelevent to our survival, we are only worth 10-20 million anyway so it doesn't matter if its 21 million or 210 million; what matters is what the parties involved want to do about it. I have yet to see a shred of evidence, as opposed to outraged opinion, that we are any more or less likely to go into admin than any other club if we don't go up.

As for having a "better" squad, does anyone on here really have an in-depth knowledge of the abilities of the 500+ players that make up the squads of every other club in this league??? All I know is we have a bog standard goalie, a brittle set of centre backs, a powder-puff midfield and a sh!t-hot pair of strikers. If that's better than everyone else then whoever goes up will be back here in sixteen months anyway.

We have a tactically poor manager. And yes a lot of inconsistent players who lack backbone, issues their previous managers didn't fix either.

Personally I think Bowyer won't be sacked. It looks to me that he/Shaw sold them on a three-year plan and we are at the end of year 2. I imagine top 6 actually was a target for this season but it's probably spinnable that we can course correct. If we'd finished lower mid table I think they would have canned him, but not having spent a day out of the top half gives him a reprieve.

You might have a point on the 3 year plan thing which would add weight to them holding onto players in a bid to back the gaffer. Plus him being able to bring extras in despite the embargo's impending start. However even if they do that again it's going to take far more than that to have a crack next season. They need to somehow find a way to fund some decent loans into this squad and they need to man up and tell Bowyer etc that there will be almost immediate scrutiny from the off next season.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Funny thing is, the only reason we didn't drop out the top half is because of the dross below us. We went on a relegation run of form from December for a good couple of months, Bowyer was just lucky there are much worse teams in this league. The league is weaker this year, it's why there is such a clear top 8 this season, as they were able to dispatch of the lesser teams who can't keep up with the chasing pack. There's a reason we've only won 1 out of the 15 games vs the teams above us.

I dread to think where we'd have finished had we sold Rhodes in January.

The bottom 16 might be weaker but the top 8 are clearly stronger than last year. We were neither overall. We had a full year of Gestede but the summer signings didn;t improve things at all.

You might have a point on the 3 year plan thing which would add weight to them holding onto players in a bid to back the gaffer. Plus him being able to bring extras in despite the embargo's impending start. However even if they do that again it's going to take far more than that to have a crack next season. They need to somehow find a way to fund some decent loans into this squad and they need to man up and tell Bowyer etc that there will be almost immediate scrutiny from the off next season.

I agree, poor start and he'll be gone imo.

[DE.]

The bottom 16 might be weaker but the top 8 are clearly stronger than last year. We were neither overall. We had a full year of Gestede but the summer signings didn;t improve things at all.

Leicester and Burney were far stronger than any of Bournemouth, Watford or Boro. The likes of Ipswich, Wolves, Brentford and Derby are nothing special either. Norwich are the only team squad-wise that I'd consider very good, and their season was half-sabotaged by employing a manager who wasn't up to the task. Unlike us, they were smart enough to recognise this and change before their season slipped away entirely.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Leicester and Burney were far stronger than any of Bournemouth, Watford or Boro. The likes of Ipswich, Wolves, Brentford and Derby are nothing special either. Norwich are the only team squad-wise that I'd consider very good, and their season was half-sabotaged by employing a manager who wasn't up to the task. Unlike us, they were smart enough to recognise this and change before their season slipped away entirely.

Wahetever we think of their respective merits - and I agree on the top two year-over-year - its going to take quite a few more points to get in the playoffs this year than last, which is what really counts. The teams in the playoff spots already collectively have 7 more points than last year's four finished the season with, and there's another 24 points still at stake. The bar got raised while we went slightly backwards

[Rover_Shaun]

Whilst Bowyer has never been my cup of tea I just can't see us being in relegation trouble next season. It may not be pretty and we may have many more hollow and meaningless "magnificent's" and "having a good go" whilst we haver around 10th to 16th. Just depends what you can stomach really

[DE.]

Wahetever we think of their respective merits - and I agree on the top two year-over-year - its going to take quite a few more points to get in the playoffs this year than last, which is what really counts. The teams in the playoff spots already collectively have 7 more points than last year's four finished the season with, and there's another 24 points still at stake.

Yep, mainly because it's been so easy to pick up points from any team below 8th. A massive reduction in quality in this year's Championship imo, but next season will see it rise again with ambitious promoted teams and mostly well-managed relegated teams. There also won't be a Blackpool to practically guarantee 6 points from.

[tomphil]

No Blackpool but there is still a possibility there'll be a club who sells everyone and replaces them with frees and kids ........

[Exiled in Toronto]

Yep, mainly because it's been so easy to pick up points from any team below 8th. A massive reduction in quality in this year's Championship imo, but next season will see it rise again with ambitious promoted teams and mostly well-managed relegated teams. There also won't be a Blackpool to practically guarantee 6 points from.

I'm shocked at how some of the teams from around us last year have found it far from easy to pick up more points this year. Comparing now with the end of last season, Derby have 9 fewer points, Reading 24 fewer, Brighton 26 fewer, and even Bolton have gone backwards with 8 fewer. Conversely, the teams currently in the running were, apart from Derby and Norwich, pretty much all midtable, so have improved substantially.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

General question - is it motivation or fitness that is the issue - or a combination of the two ? I have seen quite a few games where the players look absolutely knackered at the end of the match - but more often than not I struggle to see why ?

[DE.]

I'm shocked at how some of the teams from around us last year have found it far from easy to pick up more points this year. Comparing now with the end of last season, Derby have 9 fewer points, Reading 24 fewer, Brighton 26 fewer, and even Bolton have gone backwards with 8 fewer. Conversely, the teams currently in the running were, apart from Derby and Norwich, pretty much all midtable, so have improved substantially.

I'm not sure those teams have improved that much. As you point out, many teams (including ourselves) have gone backwards this season, making it easier for decent teams to pick up the points necessary to break away.

Bottom line, for me, is that when you look at the squads in the majority of the top 8 teams, we should at the very least be up there challenging for the final two playoff spots with Wolves, Ipswich, Brentford and Derby. To claim top 10 as an achievement is a bit silly when you look at the gap between 8th and 9th. It's a statement devoid of any context.

[roverandout]

This is a @#/? poor league, I would say 90% if not more of the teams are below average and I can't see one promoted club surviving in the premier league next year, so pretty much underlines how badly rovers have performed this season,

As for jh 's waffle about fans and the premiership, you clearly have no grasp of reality, comparing finishing midtable in the premiership to midtable in the championship is ludicrous, we would sell our grannies to be a midtable premiership team right now which ironically is where we were before these scumbuckets took over, regardless of whether fans renew or get behind the lads, it won't make a jot of difference to how these punatics run the club, the fans are a hinderance to them not a priority, the only time things will really change is when these conartists sling their hook.

[blueboy3333]

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11095/9817599

23rd best team in the country based on the last 50 years league positions, well above Burnley... we'll ignore their current league position :-)

[ABBEY]

8th we was on V day

[Mercer]

On a normal matchday Forest have around 18/19000 on, we have 13000.

They have a much bigger catchment area, so I wouldn't say they 'turn out in numbers', same with Leeds, both clubs have thousands of fans that won't turn out for mid table Championship fayre, they just have a larger core fanbase.

Think 13,000 includes the 3 or 4 thousand phantoms !

They parachute payments are over 4 seasons, we get our final installment of £8 million (I think) at the start of next season.

Seems to recall from the accounts that these payments have been 'mortgaged' !

[Mercer]

Not getting promoted last year was bad, not getting promoted this season is a disaster.

There is no stability, no progress - we are just heading for the abyss at a slower pace !

IMV:

• Our owners and Exec Management are totally ineffective and clueless how to turn this 'listing oil tanker round' - forget all this nonsense about Venky's keeping us afloat as they got us into this bloody mess in the first place
• We have a boring manager who is completely out of his depth and who has dumbed down the rest of the football structure including our conditioning / medical team (our injury frequency and recovery cycles are abysmal)
• The fans have deserted us in their thousands. I think the season ticket numbers quoted are a nonsense as are the reported gates. I would hazard a guess that police numbers would have our average gate at no more than 10,000. I would love the opportunity to audit these numbers.
• Our commercial income has fallen off a cliff since the change in club ownership

I honestly don't think there are any positives.

Fans have every right to worry about the club's future - it is bleak.

[chaddyrovers]

on Shaw, he is doing the job that the owners pay him to do and didn't do many media or press interviews. plus toe the line the owners wants from their MD. Shaw is there to run the admin side of the club.

on the conditioning / medical team, don't we have one of the England national team fitness in Chris Neville? plus Dave Ferve has Head of Sports Medicine who has worked here under previous managers including Sam Allardyce and Mark Hughes. plus Dr Amit Pannu who was England Rugby league first team Physician for 4 years and worked for Huddersfield Giants RLFC as Chief Medical Officer for 11 years. Hardly dumbed down the Conditioning/Medical team is it?

[Amo]

If the manager himself came out and admitted that there were 'no targets' this season, the complacent performances and lack of fitness are self-explanatory.

[Mercer]

on Shaw, he is doing the job that the owners pay him to do and didn't do many media or press interviews. plus toe the line the owners wants from their MD. Shaw is there to run the admin side of the club.

on the conditioning / medical team, don't we have one of the England national team fitness in Chris Neville? plus Dave Ferve has Head of Sports Medicine who has worked here under previous managers including Sam Allardyce and Mark Hughes. plus Dr Amit Pannu who was England Rugby league first team Physician for 4 years and worked for Huddersfield Giants RLFC as Chief Medical Officer for 11 years. Hardly dumbed down the Conditioning/Medical team is it?

In the commercial world, reputations count for little - it's results that count.

Bottom line, IMV, our Conditioning/Medical teams have bombed and need sorting out.

[yoda]

on Shaw, he is doing the job that the owners pay him to do and didn't do many media or press interviews. plus toe the line the owners wants from their MD. Shaw is there to run the admin side of the club.

on the conditioning / medical team, don't we have one of the England national team fitness in Chris Neville? plus Dave Ferve has Head of Sports Medicine who has worked here under previous managers including Sam Allardyce and Mark Hughes. plus Dr Amit Pannu who was England Rugby league first team Physician for 4 years and worked for Huddersfield Giants RLFC as Chief Medical Officer for 11 years. Hardly dumbed down the Conditioning/Medical team is it?

Quite right Chaddy, we a comms' director to do that kind of thing, anyone know what he looks like ?

What did the clubs lawyers say in court after Degsy cocked up, a club out of control !

So we have a top fitness setup, does that mean all the player are actually fit ?

Why do they look lethargic at times and some prone for injury, allegedly ?

[chaddyrovers]

In the commercial world, reputations count for little - it's results that count.

Bottom line, IMV, our Conditioning/Medical teams have bombed and need sorting out.

how has it bombed?

we have Fevre who has been around 16 years. so he has worked under good managers like Souness, Hughes, Allardyce.

Pannu has worked for England Rugby league team for around 4 years.

both have good CV's