[Archived] Club PR is impying that 9th place is an achievement? Progression or Regression. Your thoughts?

[K-Hod]

If I remember correctly, wasn't the story that Singh told Glen that Balaji sold off part of his land to buy Rhodes and that it was a one off? Apologies if that's wrong. A few points.....

Glen only knows what Singh told him.

Is Balaji really that poor to have to sell off land?

Were Huddersfield paid, in full, up front for Rhodes? Weren't we told that Hfield were still owed money up until recently for Rhodes?

So are we to believe that the Rhodes fee and wages don't show on the rovers accounts - and if that is the case, selling him wouldn't reduce the losses by a single penny would it.

If we sell Rhodes, will Balaji want his money back?

Are we really to believe that we could only buy a player for £8m as long as his name was Jordan Rhodes?

Now now Den. My point is simply that, the money was made available because it was Jordan Rhodes and they believed what they believed at the time. Kean wanted Simon Cox I believe.

As for what Glen was told, god knows, I'll take your word for it, I'd take anything Mr Singh says with a pinch of salt.

I couldn't tell you how we paid for Rhodes, so many rumours abound about our finances, but I do believe we probably have 'spread the cost' as it were.

[ABBEY]

I'm talking about the difference in points between this season and last Abbey and it's a handful. As you say Abbey, with regard to Bowyer, haters gonna hate

wouldn't like a punch off you ,your hands must be bloody massive.

I gave him the benefit but hes the most unsiring leader I have ever seen. The only people I hate are the V's and as ive said before I hope my great grand kids are told this too.

[bluebruce]

The only thing that Wigan, Forest, Cardiff et al underperforming demonstrates to me is that this league was even more there for the taking. No point lamenting individual mistakes instead of the manager. They are his players now, he organises them, and with better tactics and selections we would definitely be higher.

[tomphil]

Rhodes was paid for in instalments but the owners said it was ok to go for it, I think that's pretty much how it panned out. No lump sum chucked in or building plot flogged off. According to some from Rovers end end/ Hudds end and good old Nicko it's common knowledge we still owe an instalment or two. No surprise there as it may have had appearance/goals/international based clauses in it or something like a lot of agreements do.

The land thing is supposedly what some of the debt is secured against and where the original 50 mill figure came from that Nicko and Coco etc were getting excited about a few years ago.

[den]

Now now Den. My point is simply that, the money was made available because it was Jordan Rhodes and they believed what they believed at the time. Kean wanted Simon Cox I believe.

As for what Glen was told, god knows, I'll take your word for it, I'd take anything Mr Singh says with a pinch of salt.

I couldn't tell you how we paid for Rhodes, so many rumours abound about our finances, but I do believe we probably have 'spread the cost' as it were.

It really doesn't matter who bought him, or didn't. The truth is that we have two strikers who's current market values are probably around £12-15m playing in a side that just can't control a game and IMO are contributing to that problem. Unfortunately, - and this is a BIG unfortunately, their value can't now be reinvested.

[K-Hod]

It really doesn't matter who bought him, or didn't. The truth is that we have two strikers who's current market values are probably around £12-15m playing in a side that just can't control a game and IMO are contributing to that problem. Unfortunately, - and this is a BIG unfortunately, their value can't now be reinvested.

Now that I can agree with.

[yoda]

It really doesn't matter who bought him, or didn't. The truth is that we have two strikers who's current market values are probably around £12-15m playing in a side that just can't control a game and IMO are contributing to that problem. Unfortunately, - and this is a BIG unfortunately, their value can't now be reinvested.

Now that I can agree with.

It would be better then to get someone in who could utilise them better in a TEAM

[Mercer]

What use is spinning the stat of a handful of points if half the league moves on without you?

A handful of points makes no impression on losses of £30million+ per season.

Penny wont drop for some - the only solution that will address our financial nightmare is promotion.

Bowyer hasn't delivered and wont.

Nothing other than promotion works.

[Mercer]

wouldn't like a punch off you ,your hands must be bloody massive.

I gave him the benefit but hes the most unsiring (uninspiring) leader I have ever seen. The only people I hate are the V's and as ive said before I hope my great grand kids are told this too.

Nail on head.

We need a manager who the players would run through a brick wall for. A manager with charisma, a manger with passion, a manager who would galvanise the club and its fans. Has Dyche a twin brother ?

[Mercer]

Rhodes was paid for in instalments but the owners said it was ok to go for it, I think that's pretty much how it panned out. No lump sum chucked in or building plot flogged off. According to some from Rovers end end/ Hudds end and good old Nicko it's common knowledge we still owe an instalment or two. No surprise there as it may have had appearance/goals/international based clauses in it or something like a lot of agreements do.

The land thing is supposedly what some of the debt is secured against and where the original 50 mill figure came from that Nicko and Coco etc were getting excited about a few years ago.

The accounts show that the bank loans / overdraft are made to Rovers.

Third parties (V's through their Indian company or as individuals or both) have made secured guarantees (ie the land), however, this is of little comfort to Rovers' fans as any lender (BOI) will pursue its borrower (Rovers) through a normal insolvency process to the nth degree (could mean administration or even liquidation) before resorting to the secured guarantees provided by a third party or parties. This is normal insolvency practice and football clubs are not immune to it.

[JBiz]

The same Dyche who has brought Burnley to the brink of relegation?

I know it was never going to be an easy job but if top flight football is what this club craves, surely you should be setting your bar higher? For example the man the owners sacked?

See, that's the point wasted on many. We had what we needed, and the people you want to find those same qualities will inevitably fall short. Reasoning; they won't employ proven experience.

When this FACT is accepted, it's difficult to fathom how the "dumbed down" club structure could find the correct appointment.

I share many "realists" deeper concerns about the direction the club will take if it changes the current recipe. However uninspiring you may feel that is- our primary concern is the intentions of a silent ownership.

Letting more chancers in the door is a real possibility that your posts seem to ignore IMVHO.

[1arC]

The accounts show that the bank loans / overdraft are made to Rovers.

Third parties (V's through their Indian company or as individuals or both) have made secured guarantees (ie the land), however, this is of little comfort to Rovers' fans as any lender (BOI) will pursue its borrower (Rovers) through a normal insolvency process to the nth degree (could mean administration or even liquidation) before resorting to the secured guarantees provided by a third party or parties. This is normal insolvency practice and football clubs are not immune.

If this was a British lender, then on default of the debt, the security would be called in and sold. If Venky's have put up the land as security then the easiest way for the Bank of Ireland to get their money back would be to take possession of the land and sell it. Very much like a residential, or commercial Mortgage. No point in making the club insolvent, if the owners have put the land up as security, as doing that means they will NOT get their money back.

[Kamy100]

Ok this is from an investment banker based in Mumbai whom I have asked about this issue:

The loans that have been given to Venky’s to fund your football club have been secured against Venky’s India assets, these assets include land in and around Pune and some assets that they hold in Rajastan. You need to be understanding that Venky’s have a very long standing relationship with the state bank of India, they put millions of rupees worth of business through them.

The practice in India is that of taking the assets that the loans have been secured against, in this case if there was some default in the repayments then the bank would take the indian based assets, they would not pursue any foreign assets that Venky’s hold. Of course this does not stop Venky’s from selling your assets to raise capital but you will not be getting the State bank of India pursuing these assets. I do not think that it would come to this point, the state bank of india is venky’s major bank, they have long established relationships and both venky’s and the bank will not want to be jeopardising this easily so if there be some difficulty in making repayments then they would look to resolve this before it gets to a very serious position of default.

[1arC]

Bank of India by the way, before anyone corrects me!

Ok this is from an investment banker based in Mumbai whom I have asked about this issue:

The loans that have been given to Venky’s to fund your football club have been secured against Venky’s India assets, these assets include land in and around Pune and some assets that they hold in Rajastan. You need to be understanding that Venky’s have a very long standing relationship with the state bank of India, they put millions of rupees worth of business through them.

The practice in India is that of taking the assets that the loans have been secured against, in this case if there was some default in the repayments then the bank would take the indian based assets, they would not pursue any foreign assets that Venky’s hold. Of course this does not stop Venky’s from selling your assets to raise capital but you will not be getting the State bank of India pursuing these assets. I do not think that it would come to this point, the state bank of india is venky’s major bank, they have long established relationships and both venky’s and the bank will not want to be jeopardising this easily so if there be some difficulty in making repayments then they would look to resolve this before it gets to a very serious position of default.

Sounds like just what I have said would happen in the UK Kamy thats is that the bank would take the assets. Nothing unusual there then, but also from what you have been told be the investment banker, Venky's have a good relationship with the bank and therefore everything looks safe that way. Obviously Venky's can pull the plug on the clubs funding, but not a third party then?

[Mercer]

Ok this is from an investment banker based in Mumbai whom I have asked about this issue:

The loans that have been given to Venky’s to fund your football club have been secured against Venky’s India assets, these assets include land in and around Pune and some assets that they hold in Rajastan. You need to be understanding that Venky’s have a very long standing relationship with the state bank of India, they put millions of rupees worth of business through them.

The practice in India is that of taking the assets that the loans have been secured against, in this case if there was some default in the repayments then the bank would take the indian based assets, they would not pursue any foreign assets that Venky’s hold. Of course this does not stop Venky’s from selling your assets to raise capital but you will not be getting the State bank of India pursuing these assets. I do not think that it would come to this point, the state bank of india is venky’s major bank, they have long established relationships and both venky’s and the bank will not want to be jeopardising this easily so if there be some difficulty in making repayments then they would look to resolve this before it gets to a very serious position of default.

You almost certainly have this wrong.

The BOI facilities are to Blackburn Rovers Rovers Football and Athletic PLC and are clearly shown in the accounts for year ended June 2014. It is almost certain that these facilities will have been granted by BOI UK.

The secured assets in India will form part of a third party guarantee given by either Venkateshwara Hatcheries Pvt Limited (an Indian company) or one of more of the Raos as individuals or indeed both (Indian company and Rao individuals).

As Rovers is a UK company, it will be governed by UK accountancy / insolvency practice and law. Practice in India is not relevant.

Therefore, if the Raos are so minded, for whatever reason, they could 'allow' BOI UK to pursue an insolvency process which inevitably would lead to Administration and at worst case Liquidation. The Indian land assets could remain intact unscathed.

Sadly, too many fans are basking in the warmth of an incorrect illusion.

My view is based upon personal working experience of insolvency in the UK.

[Kamy100]

On this occasion I will take the word of someone who is involved in finance in India over yours MM and he insists that the money given to Venky's for the Rovers loans have come via the BOI in India and not UK and that correlates with previous info from others which confirmed it being secured against Indian assets.

[Rover_Shaun]

With the debt rising at the level it is the BOI of India could own half the sub-continent if they default

[tomphil]

The worrying bit is them borrowing money to put in and not putting in their own cash as some would like to believe.

[Parsonblue]

wouldn't like a punch off you ,your hands must be bloody massive.

I gave him the benefit but hes the most unsiring leader I have ever seen. The only people I hate are the V's and as ive said before I hope my great grand kids are told this too.

I wouldn't argue about his manner Abbey. Bowyer is clearly not a guy that shows a huge amount of outward passion on the touchline compared to some. But a number of successful managers in the past have been the same. It's what they say on the training ground and in the dressing room that counts. The players appear to have respect for him which is what counts in my book.

[Mercer]

On this occasion I will take the word of someone who is involved in finance in India over yours MM and he insists that the money given to Venky's for the Rovers loans have come via the BOI in India and not UK and that correlates with previous info from others which confirmed it being secured against Indian assets.

Firstly, we are talking about the financing of a UK operation and not an Indian operation.

You only need to look into the Rovers' accounts. Statutory accounts don't lie !

The key is, who has the money been lent to ?

The Rovers' accounts show a BOI overdraft facility of over £10million plus a loan, therefore, BOI has granted facilities directly to Rovers.

The only way your argument holds is if BOI has also made personal loans to the Raos who in turn have then used those loans in the UK to issue further share capital in Venky's London Limited which essentially keeps the Rovers afloat. This in itself would be a major concern.

[tomphil]

That's the most worrying bit if they are borrowing to fund VLL. Has to be a tipping point, how much is this land worth ?

[yoda]

On this occasion I will take the word of someone who is involved in finance in India over yours MM and he insists that the money given to Venky's for the Rovers loans have come via the BOI in India and not UK and that correlates with previous info from others which confirmed it being secured against Indian assets.

MM has a point, that money has been used to keep the club going.

I would say that technically the club is already insolvent, i.e. it cannot meet its day to day running expenses and service the debt.

The only way the accounts can have been signed off is with assurances for the immediate future that outside finance is available.

If this were to stop the trap door opens.

It does not really matter what the existing cash injections have been secured against.

[broadsword]

From what I've been told the value of land that the halfwits mortgaged continues to rise.

as long as it continues to go up, the bank is happy.

If they really were awash with cash,it wouldn't make sense to do this, because you're paying a higher rate of interest on the debt than you'd receive on the liquid cash in your account.

My suspicion is, yes they are worth a lot of money, but even a massive meat wholesalers would not have the enormous cash on hand to keep the white elephant that is rovers afloat. Meat wholesale is a low margin, high volume business. It's not gold mining. If they're taking money out of their core business to find rovers then their core business will suffer. That would be like slaughtering the golden goose, or should i say golden chicken.

So right I'd say they were harming their own personal future wealth by keeping the dead duck that is rovers going. It doesn't make sense, you have to wond er why. As soon as they tire of the aggro it's game over, plug pulled.

If for whatever reason they don't want anyone going through the books we will be left to slowly run down our costs until we break even , presumably in football's basement.

I wouldn't like to say how this will end, but my being is that it won't be good

[Mercer]

From what I've been told the value of land that the halfwits mortgaged continues to rise.

as long as it continues to go up, the bank is happy.

If they really were awash with cash,it wouldn't make sense to do this, because you're paying a higher rate of interest on the debt than you'd receive on the liquid cash in your account.

My suspicion is, yes they are worth a lot of money, but even a massive meat wholesalers would not have the enormous cash on hand to keep the white elephant that is rovers afloat. Meat wholesale is a low margin, high volume business. It's not gold mining. If they're taking money out of their core business to find rovers then their core business will suffer. That would be like slaughtering the golden goose, or should i say golden chicken.

So right I'd say they were harming their own personal future wealth by keeping the dead duck that is rovers going. It doesn't make sense, you have to wond er why. As soon as they tire of the aggro it's game over, plug pulled.

If for whatever reason they don't want anyone going through the books we will be left to slowly run down our costs until we break even , presumably in football's basement.

I wouldn't like to say how this will end, but my being is that it won't be good

Cast your mind back to the 1990's when UK banks and other commercial lenders caught a huge cold as land / building values fell dramatically even to below perceived 'forced sale values'. It was frightening and carnage.

[tomphil]

Been doing a lot of digging recently on the wealth of these lot and it's a bit more than a massive meat wholesalers. It's fair to say they appear experts in their field and are into absolutely everything in regards to the poultry market on the Indian continent. Chicken meat obviously, eggs, chicks, feed, vaccines, equipment, sports nutrition on and on. The number of companies and associated companies is staggering.

That's before you start on their own personal business interests away from anything with a V on it. Lavassa for instance seems a good earner for it's directors of which Mrs D is one. They are certainly a complicated bunch, it's impossible to grasp what they are worth as a whole. Sadly they still know fook all about football and how it just doesn't follow normal business practise