[Archived] Jason Lowe set to return

[RevidgeBlue]

The league position and goals conceded column supports how much we've missed a settled midfield this season.

Eh? As far as I can see we conceded 62 goals in 2013/14 with Lowe playing and 59 in 2014/15 without him. Points wise it was also practically identical two more in 2013/14 but outside the play offs and miles off automatic promotion reckoning in both cases.

Perhaps you should check your facts before hurling insults around with such impunity.

[joey_big_nose]

For me Williamson is a better footballer, Lowe is a better athlete, I don't think he's fast but is probably the only one of the sitting midfielders with the legs to make a break into the box - then do naff all with it.

He's not the worst option to have in a 5 man midfield but really we don't have a single central midfielder you would say is deserving of a real claim to a starting spot over the last couple of years.

Agreed last proper central midfielder who looked decent was Nzonzi and Jermain Jones. Oh maybe the other Jones briefly looked servicable.

Murphy, Etuhu, Spearing, Evans, Lowe, Williamson, Cairney. Even Tunnicliffe who had an okay spell with us looked better on the wing or in the hole than as a proper midfielder. Its been terrible.

We used to complain about the Axe. He would eat all of those for breakfast at once.

[Amo]

Williamson is the only player we have who'll actually harry and press in midfield, and when he can be best described as 'crab-like' you know you've got problems.

[RevidgeBlue]

For me Williamson is a better footballer, Lowe is a better athlete, I don't think he's fast but is probably the only one of the sitting midfielders with the legs to make a break into the box - then do naff all with it.

He's not the worst option to have in a 5 man midfield but really we don't have a single central midfielder you would say is deserving of a real claim to a starting spot over the last couple of years.

Good point about Williamson. If Lowe had his footballing ability we'd have a decent player imo. As it is I think it's highly doubtful either will take us forward.

Edit: Just noticed Lowe comes up as "Lower" on my predictive text. Quite apt imo.

[JBiz]

Eh? As far as I can see we conceded 62 goals in 2013/14 with Lowe playing and 59 in 2014/15 without him. Points wise it was also practically identical two more in 2013/14 but outside the play offs and miles off automatic promotion reckoning in both cases.

Perhaps you should check your facts before hurling insults around with such impunity.

Learn to read. Did I say that conceding goals was directly related to losing Lowe?

No I didn't. I said it was down to lacking a settled midfield. Something you can't argue with - look at the constant changes, injuries and loans. It was the same the year before.

Get Lowe fit consistently, play him defensively in a 4 or 5 and you'll get better performances from us, particularly without the ball away from home. Cairney, Evans and Lowe in a 3 looked our best mix to me - albeit that it's been difficult to get all three fit at the same time in the last 18 months.

Stuart, Lowe has very good physical attributes. Argue all you want on the contrary but it's an opinion. Without trialling the lad you know as much as me. Did I say he was Goulonesque, did I heck. He's fast, strong and can run for 90 minutes unlike any other midfielder we have.

Evans, Cairney, Williamson, Marshall - none have that stamina- maybe Conway matches up in terms of perspiration but not many others do.

We are in a position (need I remind you why) that means we need to build on what we have, the proverbial shoestring. Are you that cemented in your view point that he's a bad player and therefore anyone who thinks otherwise (fan, coach, manager) must therefore be foolish?

Stupid, non-argument. Typical though of those struggling to defend both. Compare them to Lampard, Tugay or Mourinho. FFS.

You think Lowe has pace? Or physical presence? No wonder we rarely agree.

Go and have a look at our record with and without Lowe. A settled midfield, yes we do miss, Lowe we do not. Squad player at best. But you know this.

He runs around a lot. Get over it. Ask yourself this. Why does Bowyer insist on playing at one other defensive midfielder alongside him? It's because he isn't good enough.

So you advocate boring, negative, losing football. Brilliant.

Why do I think GB plays a defensive player next to him. Maybe something to do with playing 2 strikers. If you wanna have a negative football debate, why don't you give the Hammers a call.

Ask yourself this Stuart; why am I so entrenched in the negative.

[Stuart]

Ask yourself this Stuart; why am I so entrenched in the negative.

Because our club is. Epitomised by our negative manager.

Get in a positive-minded, proper manager with tactics and man-management ability and watch my mood change.

[JBiz]

Because our club is. Epitomised by our negative manager.

Get in a positive-minded, proper manager with tactics and man-management ability and watch my mood change.

Ah so it's a personality thing also. Bourya is it.. Like I said if it's not personality, if it's football give some West Ham fans a bell, they like talking about how "they should be playing". Or wait twelve months and ask them yourself when they come hurtling back down.

I think your so embroiled in the past, your completely missing the big picture. I prefer to look forward. Anyone who is doing that should be a lot more worried about where most of the better players might end up- as opposed for who's picking them come August.

The club needs more of a fix than just a new manager. If you believe that the opposite, you're exhibiting a blinkered viewpoint IMHO.

You should try seeing more than just that 90 minutes at Scunthorpe. There's lots to worry about but also some very real positives in the situation, namely the emergence of more youth players and some semblance of organisation at brochall- evidenced by the change in fortunes since a change of direction and staff.

[Doug]

I think some posters are now on the wind up! Williamson, FGS, he is the definition of an FL1 maybe even FL2 player, he is so damn slow and average ability at best. His only highlight was when he pulled the Burnley player down and got sent off! How he got a new contract I will never know.

Lowe is still relatively young being 23, been a loyal servant, product of our academy, played and captained England U20's and played England U21's.

Also, Hanley, albeit IMO he hasn't improved too much recently, but he his young for a CH, Scottish full international, captained Scotland U19's and played Scotland U21's.

Bet our current crop of youngsters can't wait to break through to the first team.

[Hasta]

If Lowe is the answer, what is the question?

In 2011, which player broke into the first team when we were 9th in the Premier League and has been an ever-present throughout our subsequent decline?

[Stuart]

Ah so it's a personality thing also. Bourya is it.. Like I said if it's not personality, if it's football give some West Ham fans a bell, they like talking about how "they should be playing". Or wait twelve months and ask them yourself when they come hurtling back down.

I think your so embroiled in the past, your completely missing the big picture. I prefer to look forward. Anyone who is doing that should be a lot more worried about where most of the better players might end up- as opposed for who's picking them come August.

The club needs more of a fix than just a new manager. If you believe that the opposite, you're exhibiting a blinkered viewpoint IMHO.

You should try seeing more than just that 90 minutes at Scunthorpe. There's lots to worry about but also some very real positives in the situation, namely the emergence of more youth players and some semblance of organisation at brochall- evidenced by the change in fortunes since a change of direction and staff.

One of us needs to look at the bigger picture. It ain't me.

The past is the one thing excusing Bowyer of all wrongdoing.

[Gav]

Good point about Williamson. If Lowe had his footballing ability we'd have a decent player imo. As it is I think it's highly doubtful either will take us forward.

Edit: Just noticed Lowe comes up as "Lower" on my predictive text. Quite apt imo.

Saying Williamson has 'football ability' makes you weep doesn't it. I know what you're saying, and he's the best of a very bad bunch, but he wouldn't have made the reserve side in years gone by.

I'm off to weep.....

[blueboy3333]

Because our club is. Epitomised by our negative manager.

Get in a positive-minded, proper manager with tactics and man-management ability and watch my mood change.

Like Kean you mean. He was big on positive-thinking, just like his mentor The Tantric Teflon Tw*t.

WTF is a proper manager anyway? It's a meaningless phrase. Managers come from all walks of life, some even come from outside of football (warburton). Tactics? His tactics are good enough to not get us relegated like some other managers touted on here. He hasn't got us promoted either, but then other managers touted on here haven't done it either. They're 'tactics' must be poor too. As for man-management, you keep going on about Souness as our ideal manager :lol:Honestly, you're all over the place. Have a lie down.

[mustard]

I can half understand the critique of Lowe, however using Williamson and/or Evans as a means of supporting Lowe's exclusion from the starting XI just doesn't sit well with me.

I, personally, don't see the closing down and battling that some say Williamson does. I think I've seen him put in two or three full-blooded tackles all season. The rest of the time, he's often nowhere near. He occasionally looks tidy on the ball, yet is just as prone to passing it to no one/losing it needlessly as any of our CMs. Evans is the worst culprit for failing to close anyone down/track a man, Williamson close behind. I'd say Lowe is better than the two of them.

If Lowe is to play, he must be lined up alongside Cairney or a new CM. No two ways about it IMO. Assuming Cairney gets his act together this summer then he can be a good CM for us and would relieve the burden on Lowe having to do anything remotely creative. Pair any of Lowe, Evans and Williamson, even in a 3-man midfield, and I'd say we're in trouble.

I know Evans was once seen to be a decent player but he truly needs to be whipped into shape to even get time off the bench for me. Been a complete passenger all season in my eyes. I'd say the absence of performances in centre midfield is endemic to Bowyer's reign. Not sure whether he just can't find the shape, the organisation or the tactics to bring out the best in any of them, but the fact that Williamson is being heralded as our best CM after the recent campaign says a lot IMO.

Based on stats (tackles and interceptions etc) our CMs are miles behind the majority of Championship midfielders. The failure to press, the absence of being able to put in a tackle. The fact that Evans has contributed 1 goal and 0 assists all season with Williamson managing 0 for both says an awful lot. Are they just terrible players or is Bowyer unable to bring out the best in them? Up for debate. IMO, our vacant CMs are symptomatic of the manager. The ineffective football on display, the seeming lack of fitness, the failure to coherently attack or defend as a team. Plenty of issues yet to be solved. Assuming we'll lose Rudy and it's up to Rhodes to bail us out on his own again. It baffles me how some on here can advocate shipping out Rhodes and Rudy and expect Bowyer and the team to find the creativity/goals from elsewhere in a midfield that has seldom contributed in the last two (or more) years. Lose both and we're (even further) up s&*t creek!

[OJRovers]

He'll be straight back in the team, just as he was when Alan Judge couldn't get a game here, who went on to be one of the best dynamic midfielders in the league.

[joey_big_nose]

I, personally, don't see the closing down and battling that some say Williamson does. I think I've seen him put in two or three full-blooded tackles all season. The rest of the time, he's often nowhere near. He occasionally looks tidy on the ball, yet is just as prone to passing it to no one/losing it needlessly as any of our CMs. Evans is the worst culprit for failing to close anyone down/track a man, Williamson close behind. I'd say Lowe is better than the two of them.

I think a few people are being unfair to Williamson. He had a run of playing very well including two great performances against Liverpool. Hes slow and we can't use him first choice next year as a result of that, but he was hugely better than any other central mid last season.

Apart from that I agree with your post. Evans is never going to make it as a player - he is just so weak in his alround game. I've still got a bit of hope for Cairney and Lowe.

There's no doubt Cairney has a lot of quality on the ball - more than most in the Championship - and he is beginning to learn to put his foot in. And I think the criticism of Lowe's closing and tackling by Stuart and Rev is way over the top. But just my opinion.

Make or break for them start of next season. And we need to bring in other better established midfielders over the summer. Bowyer looking at Austin is at least a good sign.

[davulsukur]

None of our centre mids are good enough.

They don't contribute with goals or assists and I don't think any of them particularly put in crunching tackles. Willo on occasions.

The transfer embargo means we are going to struggle to bring a decent centre mid in but we are desperately lacking in this position and have been for years.

[Stuart]

I think a few people are being unfair to Williamson. He had a run of playing very well including two great performances against Liverpool. Hes slow and we can't use him first choice next year as a result of that, but he was hugely better than any other central mid last season.

Apart from that I agree with your post. Evans is never going to make it as a player - he is just so weak in his alround game. I've still got a bit of hope for Cairney and Lowe.

There's no doubt Cairney has a lot of quality on the ball - more than most in the Championship - and he is beginning to learn to put his foot in. And I think the criticism of Lowe's closing and tackling by Stuart and Rev is way over the top. But just my opinion.

Make or break for them start of next season. And we need to bring in other better established midfielders over the summer. Bowyer looking at Austin is at least a good sign.

Way over the top? You mean like 'Kean Out' constitutes horrific abuse?

Nothing I've said about Lowe is any more 'way over the top' than your comments about Evans in this post.

[onlyonejackwalker]

Stuart will be the first to admit he has a bee in his bonnet about Lowe. I don't really get it, there have been so many on the gravy train who didnt even to pretend to try that I am suprised an honest, very hard-working lad like Lowe, thrust into the team to do a mans job when still a boy, when all around him was going to rats p*ss under the worse manager in our history and expecting him to lead from the front and drive us away from relegation was always a bit too rich for me.

Lowe came in and did very well at the outset as an emergency right back, or defensive midfielder. His progress has stymied however of late as he has been asked to do more and even though I have protected him in the past, I really do feel it is time for him now to make one position his own and to start to embrace, mature and grow into the role professionally. Certainly a very useful squad player at the very least and as a younger player who has been capped throughout his junior career at the highest levels one I hoped would develope into a very useful player for the Rovers.

Can't help feeling that working under a succession of over promoted coaches, played in a vareity of different positions, (left back, right back, defensive centre, right midfield, centre half?) won't be helping him either. Interesting that our results, goals conceeded and league position doesnt really alter whoever plays in central midfield. I still maintain he would be a useful foil centrally to someone more creative, but acknowledge he has stood stillf or a while now and this is a big season for him after returning to fitness.

[Amo]

Even some of Lowe's most captious critics would admit that he's an adequate squad player. The problem stems from him being one of Bowyer's undroppables, along with Captain Caveman.

[Stuart]

I've already said it, OOJW. He's a barometer.

It's so glaringly obvious that our form improves when he doesn't play that it's ridiculous that he's an automatic starter when fit.

If Bowyer is learning from mistakes and does not have favourites this would not happen.

I've nothing against the lad. He'd make a brilliant sub to kill a game. No bees, no bonnets, no hatred, just bemusement that the local rag talks up his imminent return to the first team as though he has been missed, before the whole cycle starts again.

[onlyonejackwalker]

I've already said it, OOJW. He's a barometer.

It's so glaringly obvious that our form improves when he doesn't play that it's ridiculous that he's an automatic starter when fit.

If Bowyer is learning from mistakes and does not have favourites this would not happen.

I've nothing against the lad. He'd make a brilliant sub to kill a game. No bees, no bonnets, no hatred, just bemusement that the local rag talks up his imminent return to the first team as though he has been missed, before the whole cycle starts again.

This is where I struggle. You say our form improves when he does not play, but that does not seem to be reflected ever in our results or league position. Which superstar comes in when he is injured? I dont have time to research, but if what you state is true presumably you have done the number crunching. If so I would be interested to view the stats.....

[LDRover]

I've put the stats on another thread somewhere but it's a fact we score more, concede less and gain more points per game without Lowe in the side.

[mustard]

I've put the stats on another thread somewhere but it's a fact we score more, concede less and gain more points per game without Lowe in the side.

I did the same last season comparing between playing Cairney or Williamson in CM (or another pairing involving 2 DMs). We picked up more points, scored more, conceded less, you name it, it was all better with Cairney in CM. However, his form faltered this season.

I don't think Lowe is the problem. It's just when he is picked it is usually at the expense of someone more creative in the centre e.g. Lowe CM with Williamson and Cairney thus moved wide right. This is where the issue was for me. If Bowyer played Lowe and Cairney in CM I think he'd perform just as well, if not better, than Williamson and Evans. However, Lowe is often paired with one of those two, meaning he has to go beyond his abilities and try and be an industrious box-to-box to make up for the lack of drive from either Corry or Willo, something he can't really be due to lack of creativity. If paired with someone creative it would relieve the pressure on Lowe and bring out the best in him IMO.

As soon as GB forgets playing a system which involves a DM pairing or 3-man consisting of Willo/Evans/Lowe, we'll begin to see an improvement, I have no doubt about that.

[joey_big_nose]

Way over the top? You mean like 'Kean Out' constitutes horrific abuse?

Nothing I've said about Lowe is any more 'way over the top' than your comments about Evans in this post.

I don't mean over-the-top in terms of abusive. I mean, in my opinion, you are emphasising his weakness too much and saying he is a worse player than he is.

To put it another way I think Lowe offers much more to the team than Evans, especially as a defensive midfielder, and would complement Cairney much better.

Anyhow we are splitting hairs as I think we all agree we need better if we are going to stand any chance of promotion.

[Stuart]

I don't mean over-the-top in terms of abusive. I mean, in my opinion, you are emphasising his weakness too much and saying he is a worse player than he is.

To put it another way I think Lowe offers much more to the team than Evans, especially as a defensive midfielder, and would complement Cairney much better.

Anyhow we are splitting hairs as I think we all agree we need better if we are going to stand any chance of promotion.

Lowe gets the home grown vote from many but I genuinely think Evans is better.

However, your last sentence I wholeheartedly agree with. We need an upgrade. Williamson 5 years younger might have been that player. We need some mettle from a young PL loanee. Someone not quite ready for the Prem but willing to put the boot in. It's pretty sad that we don't have anyone from the youth team capable.

Although I've been saying for the last two years we've been missing a 'spark' about the team. We've had pretenders in the form of King, Tunicliffe and Spearing but nothing even half as good as Dunn or Duff last time we were in this division. Even if we only had them for one season we need somebody to come in and take the game by the scruff of the neck.

If Bowyer will let them.