[Archived] Season 2015/16 Discussion

[tomphil]

We'll have to agree to disagree. He's not perfect but can cover the back four well IMO.

Whilst it'll be good to have him available again his only real attributes are his workrate and commitment. IMO he's a poor defensive midfielder and often chases players shadows, doesn't get a foot in and it opens up a big gap in front of our back four to exploit. We've seen it numerous times in the past, people keep saying he sits in front of the back four but he doesn't really he's easily lured out of position.

To be fair to him again a lot of this is down to the way we play where he's drawn across the park because no one else moves, closes down or puts a tackle in. Also when he moves no one covers him, a major problem with the Willowe partnership which everyone could see except the guy on the touchline. I agree that a different formation would suit him better like the diamond but we need to be building the team and altering the system to suit the better players and not him.

[joey_big_nose]

To be fair to him again a lot of this is down to the way we play where he's drawn across the park because no one else moves, closes down or puts a tackle in. Also when he moves no one covers him, a major problem with the Willowe partnership which everyone could see except the guy on the touchline. I agree that a different formation would suit him better like the diamond but we need to be building the team and altering the system to suit the better players and not him.

Well on that score the reason to go for a diamond, imo, is that it will suit Rhodes (as it is more likely to produce the through balls he prefers) and Marshall (who can get a free role behind the strikers). Lowe is just the best of a poor bunch to slot in at the base.

[Amo]

we all have different views and it good that we do

No it ain't. You take that back!

[Kie_BRFC]

Don't matter he dumped her months ago

'Psycho'

[thenodrog]

if you'd have said 'to confuse the back four' then id agree with you, because that's all he does with all his running about like an headless chicken, he hasn't got a tackle in him and the majority of his passes are back to the defenders or keeper(which only puts them under more unnecessary pressure.

Playing to a man in space anywhere is not wrong, in fact it is a good thing which we are not good at. Alternatives..

1. Playing to a marked man makes it a 50:50 chance of losing possession.

2. Lumping it in the air to Gestede or Brown probably makes retaining possession at 60:40 against.

3. Lumping it to JR makes if about 80:20 against (I've said until I'm blue in the face that JR dos not offer an 'out' option when we are under pressure with the result that the opposition gain possession immediately and the pressure is back on until it becomes relentless. Suffice to point out that the opposition cannot score if they don't have the ball.

[JAL]

The impression I got of watching Tom Cairney play last season was one of lack lustre effort which can only go down against the manager for allowing it to be so.

[ABBEY]

'Psycho'

ha indeed

[perthblue02]

New Football League rules in place for club insolvency and club ownership starting 2015/16 season

http://www.football-league.co.uk/news/article/2015/football-league-clubs-focus-on-the-future-2483914.aspx

[Blandy]

Cairney's footballing brain is to slow to be effective in the No. 10 role!

[joey_big_nose]

Cairney's footballing brain is to slow to be effective in the No. 10 role!

I'd be inclined to agree with this. That Marshall can use both feet, is more unpredictable, can dribble, and has more pace all suggest he is a better fit for a number ten role than Cairney.

[LDRover]

I'd be inclined to agree with this. That Marshall can use both feet, is more unpredictable, can dribble, and has more pace all suggest he is a better fit for a number ten role than Cairney.

Not sure either of them are. Cairney too one footed and Marshall doesn't play with his head up.

[thenodrog]

Not sure either of them are. Cairney too one footed and Marshall doesn't play with his head up.

Both of then turn up one game in three.

[RevidgeBlue]

Both of then turn up one game in three.

More like one in six or seven.

[joey_big_nose]

"Weeing with the willy we have" is how souness termed it.

We have other areas of the team more pressing for recruitment and these two are of the very few in our squad that show promise. We are not going to be signing anyone better into that role imo.

[DE.]

Cairney and Marshall have both shown they have the talent, their problem is consistency. They need a manager who will push them to give 100% no matter what, as does every other player in the squad. Motivation is a huge factor in getting a team in this league into the top spots. If the players believe in themselves and the ability of the manager, it's enough to turn an average performer into a good or great one. You only have to look at the likes of Ipswich and Brentford to see that. In terms of squads, I wouldn't classify either as being better than us, but in terms of motivation, consistency and a solid game plan? Miles ahead.

[blueboy3333]

Cairney and Marshall have both shown they have the talent, their problem is consistency. They need a manager who will push them to give 100% no matter what, as does every other player in the squad. Motivation is a huge factor in getting a team in this league into the top spots. If the players believe in themselves and the ability of the manager, it's enough to turn an average performer into a good or great one. You only have to look at the likes of Ipswich and Brentford to see that. In terms of squads, I wouldn't classify either as being better than us, but in terms of motivation, consistency and a solid game plan? Miles ahead.

Bruce and Pearson failed to get consistency out of Cairney & Marshall. Both those managers got promoted out of this league but couldn't get a tune out of either player. Not sure what your point is?

[DE.]

Bruce and Pearson failed to get consistency out of Cairney & Marshall. Both those managers got promoted out of this league but couldn't get a tune out of either player. Not sure what your point is?

Read the second part of the post you quoted. That's the point.

As far as I recall Cairney was pretty consistent for Hull until he got his knee injury in August 2012. When he came back he'd lost his place in the team (at that point in the PL) and never really regained it, so was sold. It happens. Marshall's sale I believe was more down to fitness and injuries than consistency? I know he played well for Leicester in spells, but it was hampered by his fitness problems. Whether that's an issue here, I don't know, but he's already played more games for us than he ever did for Leicester.

I'm not saying another manager would definitely get loads more out of Marshall and Cairney, but we've certainly seen from Cairney that he can be much better than he was last season, and it falls at the manager's feet to remedy whatever has caused his inconsistency this season.

[blueboy3333]

Read the second part of the post you quoted. That's the point.

As far as I recall Cairney was pretty consistent for Hull until he got his knee injury in August 2012. When he came back he'd lost his place in the team (at that point in the PL) and never really regained it, so was sold. It happens. Marshall's sale I believe was more down to fitness and injuries than consistency? I know he played well for Leicester in spells, but it was hampered by his fitness problems. Whether that's an issue here, I don't know, but he's already played more games for us than he ever did for Leicester.

I'm not saying another manager would definitely get loads more out of Marshall and Cairney, but we've certainly seen from Cairney that he can be much better than he was last season, and it falls at the manager's feet to remedy whatever has caused his inconsistency this season.

i quoted all your post in context and answered the specific points you raised. Brentford was not relevant to the points you made about cairney or Marshall. If you's mentioned brentford and Judge on the other hand

Cairney was fit and raring to go when he joined us and got player of the season. Bruce obviously didn't rate him. Same with Marshall. Bowyer has got more out of the pair of them than any of their previous clubs which is why they are being linked with big-money moves away.

Regardless, here's Cairney on why this season was not as good as last. He admits he needs to get stronger and learn to cope with being a marked man:-

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/rovers/news/13310907.I_must_cope_with_being_a_marked_man__insists_Blackburn_Rovers_midfielder_Tom_Cairney/?ref=mac

[DE.]

Regardless, here's Cairney on why this season was not as good as last. He admits he needs to get stronger and learn to cope with being a marked man:-

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/rovers/news/13310907.I_must_cope_with_being_a_marked_man__insists_Blackburn_Rovers_midfielder_Tom_Cairney/?ref=mac

How many times have you seen a player come out and blame a manager for their failings though? It rarely happens unless there's been a bust up of some kind. Of course Cairney needs to put the effort in to improve, but he also needs his manager to motivate him and play a system he can have an impact in.

Do you think Bowyer is the man to do that? You've seen more games than I have so I'd be interested to know what you think Bowyer needs to do to get the best out of Cairney, and whether current evidence suggests he's doing or will do that.

[tomphil]

Cairney is just another one who's gone backwards this season. It seems they've sussed the manager out now and know they are on a relatively easy street at Ewood. A kick up the arse all around wouldn't do any harm I don't think.

[blueboy3333]

How many times have you seen a player come out and blame a manager for their failings though? It rarely happens unless there's been a bust up of some kind. Of course Cairney needs to put the effort in to improve, but he also needs his manager to motivate him and play a system he can have an impact in.

Do you think Bowyer is the man to do that? You've seen more games than I have so I'd be interested to know what you think Bowyer needs to do to get the best out of Cairney, and whether current evidence suggests he's doing or will do that.

I have no honestly no idea if a different manager would get more out of him. It's just that better managers than Bowyer (or at least ones that have got promoted out of this league)have tried and failed. I can see the argument for playing him inside but again Bruce didn't trust him there. I also don't think he could be trusted in a two-man midfield for the simple reason that although he's good when he has the ball and can spot a pass better than every one else in the team he tends to go missing for chunks of the game ( a change to a 5-man midfield may help him but that would mean regularly dropping a striker. I'm not convinced cairney is good enough to build a team round)

My main gripe is that cairney's head goes down far too quickly... and i actually mean it literally goes down to the point he trudges around the pitch staring at the grass whilst the game goes around him. I've seen this happen a few times, most recently against Liverpool when a move broke down because of him. It's pathetic to watch at times from a paid professional. This is therefore more about Cairney than Bowyer and at least Cairney has come out and accepted he has to toughen up mentally.

In essence, Bowyer bought someone on the cheap, dragged him out of the wilderness and allowed him to get Player of the Season after playing him in a position that was alien to him (credit where it's due). Cairney in 2nd season becomes a marked man, his performances drop and accepts he must do better. Hopefully next season he'll get back on track.

Anyway i'm off to cycle my fat ass around Lancahire now. It won't be pretty. Have a good afternoon

[ABBEY]

cyclist..might have known.

[mustard]

I have no honestly no idea if a different manager would get more out of him. It's just that better managers than Bowyer (or at least ones that have got promoted out of this league)have tried and failed. I can see the argument for playing him inside but again Bruce didn't trust him there. I also don't think he could be trusted in a two-man midfield for the simple reason that although he's good when he has the ball and can spot a pass better than every one else in the team he tends to go missing for chunks of the game ( a change to a 5-man midfield may help him but that would mean regularly dropping a striker. I'm not convinced cairney is good enough to build a team round)

My main gripe is that cairney's head goes down far too quickly... and i actually mean it literally goes down to the point he trudges around the pitch staring at the grass whilst the game goes around him. I've seen this happen a few times, most recently against Liverpool when a move broke down because of him. It's pathetic to watch at times from a paid professional. This is therefore more about Cairney than Bowyer and at least Cairney has come out and accepted he has to toughen up mentally.

In essence, Bowyer bought someone on the cheap, dragged him out of the wilderness and allowed him to get Player of the Season after playing him in a position that was alien to him (credit where it's due). Cairney in 2nd season becomes a marked man, his performances drop and accepts he must do better. Hopefully next season he'll get back on track.

Anyway i'm off to cycle my fat ass around Lancahire now. It won't be pretty. Have a good afternoon

I don't think he's a marked man, I just think other teams have become wise to the way we play and thus nullify our threats as best they can. The only reason we even did as well as we did is that the Rhodes is unstoppable in the box at this level, just like Rudy is unstoppable in the air at this level. Exactly why the rest of our team contributed diddly squat, because Bowyer and his style of play had been found out, but thankfully the front two bailed us out time and time again. Like when Bowyer played Cairney wide right at home to Norwich, ahead of Baptiste at RB, despite Redmond having Martin Olsson ready to overlap at every opportunity. It meant Cairney never got back and drifted inside (as always) as he's not a winger, exposing Baptiste (who had a blinder vs Redmond) meaning Olsson got in behind a few times as he wasn't tracked by TC. Needless to say, we lost that game. A good manager would have known to play a 'proper' winger who would pin back the opposition fullback and offer support to the defender behind him. Basic stuff that Bowyer got wrong, yet other managers get right.

[blueboy3333]

I don't think he's a marked man, I just think other teams have become wise to the way we play and thus nullify our threats as best they can. The only reason we even did as well as we did is that the Rhodes is unstoppable in the box at this level, just like Rudy is unstoppable in the air at this level. Exactly why the rest of our team contributed diddly squat, because Bowyer and his style of play had been found out, but thankfully the front two bailed us out time and time again. Like when Bowyer played Cairney wide right at home to Norwich, ahead of Baptiste at RB, despite Redmond having Martin Olsson ready to overlap at every opportunity. It meant Cairney never got back and drifted inside (as always) as he's not a winger, exposing Baptiste (who had a blinder vs Redmond) meaning Olsson got in behind a few times as he wasn't tracked by TC. Needless to say, we lost that game. A good manager would have known to play a 'proper' winger who would pin back the opposition fullback and offer support to the defender behind him. Basic stuff that Bowyer got wrong, yet other managers get right.

Well you wouldn't would you, because it doesn't fit with your viewpoint. You obviously didn't read the article so i'll quote you the relevant part:-

"But I suppose after last season it was always going to be hard. I’ve not had the space I had last season and I think more teams know more about me and know more about my strengths"

Cairney's words, not mine.

[mustard]

Well you wouldn't would you, because it doesn't fit with your viewpoint. You obviously didn't read the article so i'll quote you the relevant part:-

"But I suppose after last season it was always going to be hard. I’ve not had the space I had last season and I think more teams know more about me and know more about my strengths"

Cairney's words, not mine.

Huh? No ulterior motive in my opinion. My viewpoint is based on what I saw week after week. I just don't buy into Cairney's view that he's a marked man and that's the result of his poorer performances. I don't know if there is an attitude problem there but he doesn't seem to have the same desire and commitment as before. Same can be said for a lot of players. I think other players in our team don't help Cairney either tbh. No movement around him, no real structure to allow him to thrive in. Our play has become predictable and as a result the only good performers this season have been Rhodes and Rudy who are exceptional players for this league (some would argue Rhodes hasn't had a good season but his goal return is still very good). Outside of the front two there is only Kilgallon and Olsson who are often under the cosh most games.

Do you believe with other aspects of my post or not? Out of interest.