[Archived] To Keep Gestede/Rhodes or Not

[JBiz]

1. It probably has something to do with his marked inability to sustain a promotion push and failure to finish in the top six in successive seasons. If anything, we're regressing under his tenure, despite having two of the most prolific strikers in the league.

2. I'm saying all those who spent last season trying to undermine any criticism of the manager are about to get what they deserve.

1. "We're obviously never going to get promoted" is what you said- I'd say that it's improbable but that's very different.

I'd have told you it would be improbable that Bournemouth would win the league, and so would the bookies.

2. So "just desserts", very constructive to the discussion. I find it laughable that you think the criticism on here would warrant any thought to the Venkys decision making process - the biggest gripe has been their ignorance towards us "plebs". It's also hilarious that you see people having a different viewpoint as "undermining" your voice...

[ABBEY]

Black or white? Red or blue?

Disengage anger switch, don't assume I'm patronising and read on;

The question is not that easy and if it was, this site wouldn't exist. Just changing your question by adding one variable - time, makes it much easier to answer.

"So hand on heart do you think we will get promoted under Bowyer and when ?"

Answer would be; Yes but not this season. To answer specifically when, that depends on other things beside changing the manager. For instance, are we more likely to go up if we keep or lose our strikers? Without taking the manager into context.

grasp straws at ..rearrange

[Amo]

1. "We're obviously never going to get promoted" is what you said- I'd say that it's improbable but that's very different.

I'd have told you it would be improbable that Bournemouth would win the league, and so would the bookies.

Quit pettifogging with semantics, Jbizzle. There is no evidence that suggests Bowyer is capable of taking Rovers up.

Speaking of bookies, £100 says we don't finish in the top six next year, let alone promoted.

2. So "just desserts", very constructive to the discussion.

Who's trying to be constructive? Sometimes you just need to vent.

I find it laughable that you think the criticism on here would warrant any thought to the Venkys decision making process - the biggest gripe has been their ignorance towards us "plebs".

I never said that, though, did I?

It's also hilarious that you see people having a different viewpoint as "undermining" your voice...

For example, you don't think the likes of Parson & Drog telling us this is the natural order and we should get used to it isn't an attempt to subvert any criticism of the current regime?

[ABBEY]

I will off jbizz the same bet too

[Hasta]

Don't forget at the start of last season we knew the financial strings were tightening around our neck and FFP was coming. We should have changed the manager then whilst we had some financial muscle left. It was the last real chance we had to push on and compete for promotion.

Some people posted that this wasn't so, that 'financial meltdown' wasn't inevitable and that, after another years experience, 2015/2016 would be the year Bowyer pushed us for promotion. This is now being backtracked upon with the excuse that we can't bring people in easily, and we may lose most (all) of our firepower. As we knew this would happen all season, it would appear that if Rhodes/Gestede do leave then these people were wrong, that last season was the last real chance and that GB failed (by quite a distance). This would be especially backed up if JR departed. Why would the club turn bids down in January to then sell in July if promotion wasn't still a realistic target for them.

If we get a settled team, with players playing in their strongest positions, and managed to get a decent central midfielder in, then a 40 goal a season strike force would give us an outside shot at promotion. This would be despite the 'do not lose' mentality and lack of tactical nouse from the bench. However, when we lose one of the front two, we will have no chance of promotion barring miraculous loan incomings.

[JBiz]

Quit pettifogging with semantics, Jbizzle. There is no evidence that suggests Bowyer is capable of taking Rovers up.

Speaking of bookies, £100 says we don't finish in the top six next year, let alone promoted.

Who's trying to be constructive? Sometimes you just need to vent.

I never said that, though, did I?

For example, you don't think the likes of Parson & Drog telling us this is the natural order and we should get used to it isn't an attempt to subvert any criticism of the current regime?

I said it was improbable... So no thanks on any bets like that. Stick a fiver on Burnley going down again though for me, we can all afford to dream.

Be constructive! I get told off for venting, I'll stop until the next time someone pushes the wrong button.. If people could read the posts I didn't send, I'd be long down the pan.

Natural order? That may or may not be their opinions but they are both welcome to them. I'm more of the belief we are in a criminally manufactured position, but I still don't think the simple answer is potting the manager.

You did say that though :-) your suggesting that those with alternative viewpoints are "undermining" the process of trying to change things- my point was the owners are proven ignorant.

Oh and Abbey. It's your turn, rearrange the question all you want;

Based on their past decisions, can Derek Shaw, Madame Desai and Barry Venky find a man who will guarantee promotion? Yes or No.

[ABBEY]

Yes ! They only need to lucky once .

[Stuart]

"So hand on heart do you think we will get promoted under Bowyer and when ?"

Answer would be; Yes but not this season. To answer specifically when, that depends on other things beside changing the manager. For instance, are we more likely to go up if we keep or lose our strikers? Without taking the manager into context.

What exactly is it going to take to enable Bowyer the free hand to get us promoted? That is, removing all of these supposed dependencies.

No more embargo? Well, that requires him to sell all of his best players and never sign any decent players ever again.

No more FFP? Well he's had three transfer windows without it and hasn't proven that he can bring in the calibre of players required - despite spending more in fees and wages than many of his peers betters.

Bring in attacking players who can take a game by the scruff of the neck? They don't suit his style and he is busy marginalising or getting rid of them.

Being able to get 110% out of average players like Dyche did/does? No, all of his poorer players "just aren't good enough". Although one or two have shown that they can flourish under better managers. How would Bowyer have done with 2013/14 Burnley, for instance? I'd wager struggling and bemoaning a small squad.

An attacking philosophy that means he will go for all three points when they are there for the taking, such as a Warburton? Nope, he goes for singles not boundaries.

Does he have the contacts in the PL to be able to call in favours? He had a favour from Big Sam and wasted that one. Granted that it could be bad luck but apart from that his contacts are in the reserves and lower leagues.

Does he have the man-management ability and, ultimately, ruthlessness to leave out prominent/favoured players when we are on a good run of form? No, if you look like a coach, act like a coach, behave like a coach and talk to your players like a coach then you are probably a coach. Managers keep their distance so that they can make these sometimes cruel decisions - for the purpose of winning matches and avoiding the sack. They don't call the Kingy and Baps.

Would him keeping Rhodes and Gestede mean that he can get us promoted? No, because he'd be complaining about the embargo and the fact that we can't bring in better players.

Would him selling them both make things easier? Highly doubtful because he would bring in poorer players - if we were lucky, because the days of spending decent money are over as they would put us back under embargo - and besides he doesn't have the tools to get what is needed from these poorer players to achieve promotion.

And I've said nothing about his lack of charisma because I don't know they guy, apart from his dour interviews, so that would be unfair.

Granted, he may be a decent bloke, he and Kinder may be trying to build a local club for local people (on the cheap), but it's dog-eat-dog and other clubs will hire and fire their way to success. Meanwhile, we will continue with development football mentality, and 'stability' (actually just 'continuity' which isn't the same), and ultimately Venkys will leave us in the @#/? having run out of patience.

Obviously this is just my opinion but these are all things that I have seen which make be genuinely feel that he is not that man.

What exactly is it, in all seriousness Joe, that give you the faith that Bowyer will get us promoted in whatever timescale [to the PL]?

[JBiz]

What exactly is it going to take to enable Bowyer the free hand to get us promoted? That is, removing all of these supposed dependencies.

No more embargo? Well, that requires him to sell all of his best players and never sign any decent players ever again.

No more FFP? Well he's had three transfer windows without it and hasn't proven that he can bring in the calibre of players required - despite spending more in fees and wages than many of his peers betters.

Bring in attacking players who can take a game by the scruff of the neck? They don't suit his style and he is busy marginalising or getting rid of them.

Being able to get 110% out of average players like Dyche did/does? No, all of his poorer players "just aren't good enough". Although one or two have shown that they can flourish under better managers. How would Bowyer have done with 2013/14 Burnley, for instance? I'd wager struggling and bemoaning a small squad.

An attacking philosophy that means he will go for all three points when they are there for the taking, such as a Warburton? Nope, he goes for singles not boundaries.

Does he have the contacts in the PL to be able to call in favours? He had a favour from Big Sam and wasted that one. Granted that it could be bad luck but apart from that his contacts are in the reserves and lower leagues.

Does he have the man-management ability and, ultimately, ruthlessness to leave out prominent/favoured players when we are on a good run of form? No, if you look like a coach, act like a coach, behave like a coach and talk to your players like a coach then you are probably a coach. Managers keep their distance so that they can make these sometimes cruel decisions - for the purpose of winning matches and avoiding the sack. They don't call the Kingy and Baps.

Would him keeping Rhodes and Gestede mean that he can get us promoted? No, because he'd be complaining about the embargo and the fact that we can't bring in better players.

Would him selling them both make things easier? Highly doubtful because he would bring in poorer players - if we were lucky, because the days of spending decent money are over as they would put us back under embargo - and besides he doesn't have the tools to get what is needed from these poorer players to achieve promotion.

And I've said nothing about his lack of charisma because I don't know they guy, apart from his dour interviews, so that would be unfair.

Granted, he may be a decent bloke, he and Kinder may be trying to build a local club for local people (on the cheap), but it's dog-eat-dog and other clubs will hire and fire their way to success. Meanwhile, we will continue with development football mentality, and 'stability' (actually just 'continuity' which isn't the same), and ultimately Venkys will leave us in the @#/? having run out of patience.

Obviously this is just my opinion but these are all things that I have seen which make be genuinely feel that he is not that man.

What exactly is it, in all seriousness Joe, that give you the faith that Bowyer will get us promoted in whatever timescale [to the PL]?

Firstly, I have seen enough to say that the club is in a better position than when he tookover overall. Some may disagree and state that we are far worse off in debt - perfectly valid stand point, however its difficult to ignore the plethora of issues that faced the club in 2013. The debts we face now are the result of decisions taken 2010-2015 - not just the last year or so.

We are still suffering from those years of ridiculous transfer business and mismanagement - and to think GB has inherited this and STILL improved us. Not the finished product by some way, but a long way from what he inherited. The things we forgot we lost; Team spirit, 90 minute displays, good away performances, sound investment players, a consitent tactical and transfer approach between first team and youth, SOME good tactical decisions although still too inconsitent - the point is before he took over we'd seen nothing but misery for 2 years.

I think the keyword in all of this is inconsistent. We've been a lot better in some games than others. I feel continuity is always going to give more chance of us getting more consistent, and as his tenure goes on I think this will improve. Especially if we can keep our better players.

I also think you shoud look up the money he's spent. Granted, you are right that the budget at the club is high - If you do your maths though - before embargo I am sure we'd spent -1.5m under GB in total. He'd sold more than he'd spent. Essentially the Dann and Martin Olsson money basically paid for the ones we spent on. The wage budget will also be half what it was the season he took over - yet are we half the team we were?

We are also discounting the huge amount of money that has left the club on players paid off or not playing. Surely we will be in a better position to get promoted when we get these "dependencies" off the books!

To ignore the hangover or "dependenencies" as you put them, make any real discussion impossible. You throw two managers into the mix regarding comparisons, one will be at our level again next season and at this current time the other doesnt have a job, which shows how football can be strange. Who'd have thought Warburton would be toast? Did either of those managers inherit their respective clubs in freefall? It would be foolish to discount the good work that Dyche has done, but as I have stated, GB has also done some good work in a different climate. I'm sure you can see that but choose to beat GB with the "coach" stick, make the same comments fans made about Big Sams style, and pick on what he calls is players? I just don't get it at all.

"We want good football" - Do you know who said this in relation to BRFC?

When I think about promotion chances, the first thing on my mind is do we have the players? If we sell JR and Rudy, we will have no chance IMHO. That is with any manager, because replacing those goals with no money to spend will be nearly impossible. I agree with you massively on JR, that Rudy looks better because of the opposition defences preoccupation with Rhodes and he would be less effective without that type of poacher near him. We need to keep both and find a more consistent defensive formula. I thought Duffy looked excellent at the beginning of the year, and he might be a good ingredient for next season.

If we can keep the players, potentially move a few of the young kids up, turn a few draws into wins and defeats into draws - we can get promoted. Likewise, if we are in exactly the same position in 2 years time, you'd have to say this is limit to what GB can offer. If he left at that point after finishing mid table again - I'd still be fairly generous in praise for him having taken the club over in a storm, and pointing it in a better direction.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Bowyer is a consistently slightly below average standard manager. A consistently slightly below average manager will get us to finish consistently slightly below where we should do as dictated by our wage bill. For the last 2 years our wage bill has been play-off standard and we've finished top half. Venkys won't increase it, of that we can be sure. So it stays the same and we finish top half, or it decreases and we finish mid-table/bottom half. That is what will happen, Bowyer is as predictable as they come.

Frankly I find it faintly amusing that some Rovers fans still maintain the capacity to be surprised under the current regime. Bowyer defying any odds, never mind the increasingly long odds of getting us into the play-offs, would be totally at odds with all we've seen of his managerial ability and character thus far. I don't mean to be harsh on him, its just a fact. He's the best candidate its realistically plausible to get when your owners are a bunch of egotistical morons who insist on a diplomatic yes man.

[tomphil]

A resounding keep if no ridiculous real offers come in. I've no faith whatsoever that we could go halfway to replacing them with a bit of cash never mind without. Without the pair of them we really are nothing at the moment, especially under this coach.

[Stuart]

Firstly, I have seen enough to say that the club is in a better position than when he tookover overall. Some may disagree and state that we are far worse off in debt - perfectly valid stand point, however its difficult to ignore the plethora of issues that faced the club in 2013. The debts we face now are the result of decisions taken 2010-2015 - not just the last year or so.

We are still suffering from those years of ridiculous transfer business and mismanagement - and to think GB has inherited this and STILL improved us. Not the finished product by some way, but a long way from what he inherited. The things we forgot we lost; Team spirit, 90 minute displays, good away performances, sound investment players, a consitent tactical and transfer approach between first team and youth, SOME good tactical decisions although still too inconsitent - the point is before he took over we'd seen nothing but misery for 2 years.

I think the keyword in all of this is inconsistent. We've been a lot better in some games than others. I feel continuity is always going to give more chance of us getting more consistent, and as his tenure goes on I think this will improve. Especially if we can keep our better players.

I also think you shoud look up the money he's spent. Granted, you are right that the budget at the club is high - If you do your maths though - before embargo I am sure we'd spent -1.5m under GB in total. He'd sold more than he'd spent. Essentially the Dann and Martin Olsson money basically paid for the ones we spent on. The wage budget will also be half what it was the season he took over - yet are we half the team we were?

We are also discounting the huge amount of money that has left the club on players paid off or not playing. Surely we will be in a better position to get promoted when we get these "dependencies" off the books!

To ignore the hangover or "dependenencies" as you put them, make any real discussion impossible. You throw two managers into the mix regarding comparisons, one will be at our level again next season and at this current time the other doesnt have a job, which shows how football can be strange. Who'd have thought Warburton would be toast? Did either of those managers inherit their respective clubs in freefall? It would be foolish to discount the good work that Dyche has done, but as I have stated, GB has also done some good work in a different climate. I'm sure you can see that but choose to beat GB with the "coach" stick, make the same comments fans made about Big Sams style, and pick on what he calls is players? I just don't get it at all.

"We want good football" - Do you know who said this in relation to BRFC?

When I think about promotion chances, the first thing on my mind is do we have the players? If we sell JR and Rudy, we will have no chance IMHO. That is with any manager, because replacing those goals with no money to spend will be nearly impossible. I agree with you massively on JR, that Rudy looks better because of the opposition defences preoccupation with Rhodes and he would be less effective without that type of poacher near him. We need to keep both and find a more consistent defensive formula. I thought Duffy looked excellent at the beginning of the year, and he might be a good ingredient for next season.

If we can keep the players, potentially move a few of the young kids up, turn a few draws into wins and defeats into draws - we can get promoted. Likewise, if we are in exactly the same position in 2 years time, you'd have to say this is limit to what GB can offer. If he left at that point after finishing mid table again - I'd still be fairly generous in praise for him having taken the club over in a storm, and pointing it in a better direction.

It's hard to argue with the first third of your post but it has little to do with the exam question: promotion.

The middle third I'm not sure I understand. Dyche inherited a team that was on its way down, just more slowly than ours. He was in the final year of parachute payments and needed to get promoted quick. He was a breathe of fresh air at the right time - the kind that we needed last year. Instead we stagnated and our cup ran dry. Aside from that you dismiss all of the dependencies (your word actually) and in the final third go back to Gestede and Rhodes. (Granted it is their thread).

So sticking to that part, I agree we need to keep them but emits not a better defence we need to complement them, it's a decent midfield that can put a boot in and not simply try to soak up pressure but apply some in the opposition half. We've been missing that for these past two seasons (whilst we still had money and we could still spend it).

[Proudtobeblue&white]

Rudy wants out, JR seems a very level headed bloke, and will go if the price is met. So we are left with the scraps.

We are still at the mercy of the Loons?

It all comes down to their finances.....and their patience....and god knows?

Still more uncertainty?

[tomphil]

Another angle on the Rhodes situ being banded about is that his fee was structured in line with the parachutes. After what was put down initially and what's been paid there is one final instalment lesser than the others outstanding. This is to be paid up from this summers parachute instalment and the sell on clause also evaporates with this being paid up.

Seen this from two different geezers, one from the Huddersfield end. Again it was only being discussed on twitter so no idea if it's close to true or not. Might make sense though if it means half the incoming money wasn't owed straight out again from any possible transfer.

[mustard]

Firstly, I have seen enough to say that the club is in a better position than when he tookover overall. Some may disagree and state that we are far worse off in debt - perfectly valid stand point, however its difficult to ignore the plethora of issues that faced the club in 2013. The debts we face now are the result of decisions taken 2010-2015 - not just the last year or so.

We are still suffering from those years of ridiculous transfer business and mismanagement - and to think GB has inherited this and STILL improved us. Not the finished product by some way, but a long way from what he inherited. The things we forgot we lost; Team spirit, 90 minute displays, good away performances, sound investment players, a consitent tactical and transfer approach between first team and youth, SOME good tactical decisions although still too inconsitent - the point is before he took over we'd seen nothing but misery for 2 years.

I think the keyword in all of this is inconsistent. We've been a lot better in some games than others. I feel continuity is always going to give more chance of us getting more consistent, and as his tenure goes on I think this will improve. Especially if we can keep our better players.

I also think you shoud look up the money he's spent. Granted, you are right that the budget at the club is high - If you do your maths though - before embargo I am sure we'd spent -1.5m under GB in total. He'd sold more than he'd spent. Essentially the Dann and Martin Olsson money basically paid for the ones we spent on. The wage budget will also be half what it was the season he took over - yet are we half the team we were?

We are also discounting the huge amount of money that has left the club on players paid off or not playing. Surely we will be in a better position to get promoted when we get these "dependencies" off the books!

To ignore the hangover or "dependenencies" as you put them, make any real discussion impossible. You throw two managers into the mix regarding comparisons, one will be at our level again next season and at this current time the other doesnt have a job, which shows how football can be strange. Who'd have thought Warburton would be toast? Did either of those managers inherit their respective clubs in freefall? It would be foolish to discount the good work that Dyche has done, but as I have stated, GB has also done some good work in a different climate. I'm sure you can see that but choose to beat GB with the "coach" stick, make the same comments fans made about Big Sams style, and pick on what he calls is players? I just don't get it at all.

"We want good football" - Do you know who said this in relation to BRFC?

When I think about promotion chances, the first thing on my mind is do we have the players? If we sell JR and Rudy, we will have no chance IMHO. That is with any manager, because replacing those goals with no money to spend will be nearly impossible. I agree with you massively on JR, that Rudy looks better because of the opposition defences preoccupation with Rhodes and he would be less effective without that type of poacher near him. We need to keep both and find a more consistent defensive formula. I thought Duffy looked excellent at the beginning of the year, and he might be a good ingredient for next season.

If we can keep the players, potentially move a few of the young kids up, turn a few draws into wins and defeats into draws - we can get promoted. Likewise, if we are in exactly the same position in 2 years time, you'd have to say this is limit to what GB can offer. If he left at that point after finishing mid table again - I'd still be fairly generous in praise for him having taken the club over in a storm, and pointing it in a better direction.

Cairney: £500k

Marshall: £1mill

Evans: £770k

Conway: £100k

Gestede: £300k

Duffy: £1.3mill

Steele: £900k according to one source (transfermarkt) or £150k according to FM15 (always pretty accurate)

The rest of the figures are all according to transfermarkt, except Conway and Gestede who were reported at such figures. Doesn't matter if the Duffy transfer or any of the rest of them weren't all paid up front, the total cost will still be as it is.

Forgetting the possibly inflated Steele transfer, the figure spent is closer to £4mill than £1.5mill, Jbizzle. It seems Bowyer did a good job of convincing people that he's been so hard done by and had no money to spend at all, which is far from the truth. Bowyer spent plenty before the embargo.

[blueboy3333]

1. It probably has something to do with his marked inability to sustain a promotion push and failure to finish in the top six in successive seasons. If anything, we're regressing under his tenure, despite having two of the most prolific strikers in the league.

2. I'm saying all those who spent last season trying to undermine any criticism of the manager are about to get what they deserve.

I'm saying anybody who spends money to go and watch their club can support or not support any manager they like. Oh and easy on the ad hominems, you don't like those remember.

[JAL]

I'm saying anybody who spends money to go and watch their club can support or not support any manager they like. Oh and easy on the ad hominems, you don't like those remember.

The empty seats would appear to be in the majority these days regarding Rovers.

[pick32]

Keep both and change the manager = top 6

Keep both and bowyer = Midtable

Lose one and keep bowyer = bottom half of the table

Lose both and keep bowyer = relegation

It's that simple for me.

[joey_big_nose]

I don't think we will get promoted whether we keep the manager or get a new one.

To get promoted we need to keep our strikers, sign a quality central midfielder, a pacy striking option and a pacy winger as well as improve tactically.

I don't think we will be able to do these things under FFP.

Promotion plan would be

1) Get FFP lifted and keep squad together

2) Find better manager (as getting a good manager is contingent imo on not being in FFP)

3) Give manager modest funds to build squad in his image

And even if we achieve that it hardly guarantees promotion and will likely take at least two seasons as new manager builds his team.

I know Watford and Norwich went up in a single season with new managers but they had stronger squads than us.

[ABBEY]

Cairney: £500k

Marshall: £1mill

Evans: £770k

Conway: £100k

Gestede: £300k

Duffy: £1.3mill

Steele: £900k according to one source (transfermarkt) or £150k according to FM15 (always pretty accurate)

The rest of the figures are all according to transfermarkt, except Conway and Gestede who were reported at such figures. Doesn't matter if the Duffy transfer or any of the rest of them weren't all paid up front, the total cost will still be as it is.

Forgetting the possibly inflated Steele transfer, the figure spent is closer to £4mill than £1.5mill, Jbizzle. It seems Bowyer did a good job of convincing people that he's been so hard done by and had no money to spend at all, which is far from the truth. Bowyer spent plenty before the embargo.

Not like jbjizzle to twist facts and make things up for his agenda .

[Rover_Shaun]

To get promoted we need to keep our strikers, sign a quality central midfielder, a pacy striking option and a pacy winger as well as improve tactically.

There's an elephant hiding under a blanket in the corner called 'the defence'. As a collective unit it is below the requesite promotion standard as is the managers 2.5 year inability to affect it through coaching.

[thenodrog]

Keep both and change the manager = top 6

Keep both and bowyer = Midtable

Lose one and keep bowyer = bottom half of the table

Lose both and keep bowyer = relegation

It's that simple for me.

I don't see it as quite that simple unfortunately pick.

How about 'Keep both and change the Manager for one worse'? Why have you assumed that we will automatically get a better Manager? Perhaps you have never contemplated the probability thet we will get a worse one. If not after witnessing the glorious management skills of Ince, Kean, Appleton and Berg in recent years then I can only assume you either have a desperately poor memory, or are an eternal optimist. Need I remind you that since 2008 and Hughes's departure we've seen one top manager, one average manager and 4 abysmal managers who left to their own devices would each have relegated the club..... unfortunately as we all know one did! So why the hell are you so hasty to let the owners roll the dice again?

[Gav]

2. I'm saying all those who spent last season trying to undermine any criticism of the manager are about to get what they deserve.

You sound more and more like nodrog by the day Topman.

This site, when not bickering on every thread, is all about debate. We as fans have absolutely no say in whether Bowyer stays or goes.

So for or against him, it matters not in what goes on next season.

[thenodrog]

You sound more and more like nodrog by the day Topman.

How so gav? I'd have said quite the opposite.

[Amo]

I'm saying anybody who spends money to go and watch their club can support or not support any manager they like. Oh and easy on the ad hominems, you don't like those remember.

I cannot abide strawman arguments, either, which you seem proficient at. Maybe you should go back to debate class, because I don't think you understand what an ad hominem actually is. It's an attempt to dismiss someone's argument by attacking their character (e.g. 'Amarillo is wrong about Bowyer because he can't find Ewood with a sat-nav.' That kind of genius reasoning is an ad hominem.