[Archived] To Keep Gestede/Rhodes or Not

[Gav]

How so gav? I'd have said quite the opposite.

I was refering to Allardyce booing, Wolves at home 2-0, and your opinion that the fans somehow played a part in his sacking, thats just bunkum, a bit like Topman saying

'all those who spent last season trying to undermine any criticism of the manager are about to get what they deserve'

Like the fans have any say in the matter, for or against....

[Amo]

I was refering to Allardyce booing, Wolves at home 2-0, and your opinion that the fans somehow played a part in his sacking, thats just bunkum, a bit like Topman saying

'all those who spent last season trying to undermine any criticism of the manager are about to get what they deserve'

Like the fans have any say in the matter, for or against....

Completely different scenario. You have no idea what you're talking about.

[adsfortheblues]

Cairney: £500k

Marshall: £1mill

Evans: £770k

Conway: £100k

Gestede: £300k

Duffy: £1.3mill

Steele: £900k according to one source (transfermarkt) or £150k according to FM15 (always pretty accurate)

The rest of the figures are all according to transfermarkt, except Conway and Gestede who were reported at such figures. Doesn't matter if the Duffy transfer or any of the rest of them weren't all paid up front, the total cost will still be as it is.

Forgetting the possibly inflated Steele transfer, the figure spent is closer to £4mill than £1.5mill, Jbizzle. It seems Bowyer did a good job of convincing people that he's been so hard done by and had no money to spend at all, which is far from the truth. Bowyer spent plenty before the embargo.

I did extensive research on this before and posted it on here, I put together all transfer fees, additional add on fees, loan fees, player wages etc, everything basically for all the 29 players Bowyer has signed (more than two starting 11's) and the figure came to around £21 million, so to say he's had no money is an actual insult.

Sorry edited it is 29 players Bowyer has signed;

Taylor, Judge, Eastwood, Green, Campbell, Kilgallon, Marrow, Spurr, Evans, Songo'o, Tumwa, Marshall, Mahoney, Brown, Varney, Duffy, Baptiste, Steele, Tunnicliffe, Spearing, Henry, Paul Taylor, Kane, Cairney, Gestede, Conway, Dabo, Keane and Feeney.

I know some will think £21 million, where have you got that from, I am not saying it is spot on, but it is right give or take a couple of million. Look at it this way that is an average of £724,000 per player, which sound not far off.

[tomphil]

I did extensive research on this before and posted it on here, I put together all transfer fees, additional add on fees, loan fees, player wages etc, everthing basically for all the 24 players Bowyer has signed (more than two starting 11's) and the figure came to around £24 million, so to say he's had no money is an actual insult.

Yet he seems to find it very difficult to build 1 settled team that gels, preferring to jumble them about and pass it off as player development and increasing squad value.

[JHRover]

I don't see it as quite that simple unfortunately pick.

How about 'Keep both and change the Manager for one worse'? Why have you assumed that we will automatically get a better Manager? Perhaps you have never contemplated the probability thet we will get a worse one. If not after witnessing the glorious management skills of Ince, Kean, Appleton and Berg in recent years then I can only assume you either have a desperately poor memory, or are an eternal optimist. Need I remind you that since 2008 and Hughes's departure we've seen one top manager, one average manager and 4 abysmal managers who left to their own devices would each have relegated the club..... unfortunately as we all know one did! So why the hell are you so hasty to let the owners roll the dice again?

True. It also seems to have escaped some people's attention that since the appointment of Graeme Souness in 2000 we have actually only appointed one proven top drawer manager to the club in Sam Allardyce in 2008.

Hughes had never managed at club level although had some managerial grounding with a good spell as Wales manager.

Ince had never managed above League Two level, although had been successful there with Macclesfield & MK Dons.

Steve Kean I don't need to go into his credentials and qualifications.

Henning Berg had done nothing bar two average stints in the Norwegian league.

Michael Appleton had done nothing bar fighting fires at Pompey and ten games at Blackpool.

Gary Bowyer earned the job through two impressive caretaker spells but had no experience.

There's a recurring pattern here. Although the gamble paid off with Mark Hughes every other time we've gone down the inexperienced route successes range from decent/average (Bowyer) to absolutely disastrous (Kean and Ince). Admittedly it might be slightly unfair to label Appleton and Berg as such given the length of their tenures and situation the club was in at the time.

If the dice is to be rolled again, experience is essential. I don't understand the clamour for us to scour the third and fourth divisions for an 'up and coming' manager as though it is our duty as a club to be a stepping stone for developing managers.

We have to go down the tried and tested been there and done it in the Premier League/Championship/Top European league. Recent history tends to suggest on the rare occasions we have gone down that route as a club it has worked (Dalglish, Souness, Allardyce). Not throwing the clubs future into the hands of a League Two manager.

[thenodrog]

I was refering to Allardyce booing, Wolves at home 2-0, and your opinion that the fans somehow played a part in his sacking, thats just bunkum, a bit like Topman saying

'all those who spent last season trying to undermine any criticism of the manager are about to get what they deserve'

Like the fans have any say in the matter, for or against....

3 - 0 wasn't it? I still have no idea why people booed a 3-0 home win simply because of a back pass played to kill the game in the dying stages but i do still believe also that whilst those clowns may not have been directly responsible for his sacking that they certainly did provide some bullets for JA to fire.

[RevidgeBlue]

I don't see it as quite that simple unfortunately pick.

How about 'Keep both and change the Manager for one worse'? Why have you assumed that we will automatically get a better Manager? Perhaps you have never contemplated the probability thet we will get a worse one. If not after witnessing the glorious management skills of Ince, Kean, Appleton and Berg in recent years then I can only assume you either have a desperately poor memory, or are an eternal optimist. Need I remind you that since 2008 and Hughes's departure we've seen one top manager, one average manager and 4 abysmal managers who left to their own devices would each have relegated the club..... unfortunately as we all know one did! So why the hell are you so hasty to let the owners roll the dice again?

I'd say pick's potted summary is more or less spot on myself.

Granted GB's managerial stats are better than the records of the short lived incumbents you quote above, and he did well to steady the ship when Appleton left.

However his record is undoubtedly skewed by the goalscoring exploits of Rhodes and Gestede, there's little else to commend his recent tenure either in terms of the attitude of the team as a whole or the defence and midfield. There's also an old saying that "You're only as good as you're last game" and I'd say our old mate the blind man on a galloping horse could see we're regressing not progressing under Bowyer.

[thenodrog]

You are still choosing to ignore the distinct possibility or if you consider our last half dozen appointments.... PROBABILITY that we will get one worse.

[Jimmy612]

I'd say pick's potted summary is more or less spot on myself.

Granted GB's managerial stats are better than the records of the short lived incumbents you quote above, and he did well to steady the ship when Appleton left.

However his record is undoubtedly skewed by the goalscoring exploits of Rhodes and Gestede, there's little else to commend his recent tenure either in terms of the attitude of the team as a whole or the defence and midfield. There's also an old saying that "You're only as good as you're last game" and I'd say our old mate the blind man on a galloping horse could see we're regressing not progressing under Bowyer.

Funny that Berg and Appleton's records weren't skewed by Rhodes isn't it?

There's an awful lot of people on here who are completely adamant that any managerial change would provide an instant improvement to our final league position.

Bowyer isn't the best manager and I'm certainly not his biggest fan, but considering the group of 'experts' that would be charged with the responsibility of the next managerial appointment (most of whom are also chastised on here on a daily basis), what makes everyone so certain that the next appointment will be an improvement? Considering recent history I find it absurd that people are so short-sighted.

Wasn't Shaw responsible for the Appleton appointment by the way? If that's the benchmark of his capabilities then I'd be tempted to stick instead of twist.

[Amo]

There's an awful lot of people on here who are completely adamant that any managerial change would provide an instant improvement to our final league position.

No there isn't. No wonder it's impossible to have a rational discussion on here when people constantly exaggerate and distort others opinion.

SKH's post said it all, Bowyer has underachieved with the squad/wagebill at his disposal. A top six side that has finished in mid-table two seasons running. What do you think will happen when we're forced to downgrade the playing staff to comply with FFP?

Bowyer did a Parkes-job, he came in and steadied the ship when it was sinking, but just like Parkes he's been found wanting as a manager and isn't able to take the club forward. If Uncle Jack had been Venky's *cringe* he would've kept him in charge permanently and never given the job to Souey.

[RevidgeBlue]

Funny that Berg and Appleton's records weren't skewed by Rhodes isn't it?

There's an awful lot of people on here who are completely adamant that any managerial change would provide an instant improvement to our final league position.

Bowyer isn't the best manager and I'm certainly not his biggest fan, but considering the group of 'experts' that would be charged with the responsibility of the next managerial appointment (most of whom are also chastised on here on a daily basis), what makes everyone so certain that the next appointment will be an improvement? Considering recent history I find it absurd that people are so short-sighted.

Wasn't Shaw responsible for the Appleton appointment by the way? If that's the benchmark of his capabilities then I'd be tempted to stick instead of twist.

I don't think many are saying that. I think most recognise that appointing any manager is a gamble.

However I don't recall a single person saying they think GB has the skills to get us promotion and the only justification for keeping him is we might appoint someone worse.

I don't think I'll get out of bed tomorrow. I might come out of the door and get run over by a bus. Not a very compelling argument is it?

[Stefan Hedgehog]

I would sell gestede he refused to play at one time which is unforgivable.the poll should have a sell one option.

[Jimmy612]

I don't think many are saying that. I think most recognise that appointing any manager is a gamble.

However I don't recall a single person saying they think GB has the skills to get us promotion and the only justification for keeping him is we might appoint someone worse.

I don't think I'll get out of bed tomorrow. I might come out of the door and get run over by a bus. Not a very compelling argument is it?

Have you not been reading this message board since Christmas?

Like I've said Simon, I'm not GB's biggest fan and I think tactically he's naive. But I'm so lacking in confidence in the ability of the board/owners to make a sensible appointment that quite frankly if we did change manager then my instinct would be that we'll slide downwards instead of climbing upwards.

As for the bus analogy - what if the driver of the bus had a history of reckless driving, a drink problem and cataracts.... you still going to bother getting out of bed

[thenodrog]

No there isn't. No wonder it's impossible to have a rational discussion on here when people constantly exaggerate and distort others opinion.

SKH's post said it all, Bowyer has underachieved with the squad/wagebill at his disposal. A top six side that has finished in mid-table two seasons running. What do you think will happen when we're forced to downgrade the playing staff to comply with FFP?

Bowyer did a Parkes-job, he came in and steadied the ship when it was sinking, but just like Parkes he's been found wanting as a manager and isn't able to take the club forward. If Uncle Jack had been Venky's *cringe* he would've kept him in charge permanently and never given the job to Souey.

I don't think many are saying that. I think most recognise that appointing any manager is a gamble.

However I don't recall a single person saying they think GB has the skills to get us promotion and the only justification for keeping him is we might appoint someone worse.

I don't think I'll get out of bed tomorrow. I might come out of the door and get run over by a bus. Not a very compelling argument is it?

I've highlighted Topmans rather abstract opinion but you are both blaming Bowyer (which to a point is acceptable as he is the Manager) when the real issue as I've reiterated time and again is that not one of todays squad would even get near a place in the team that got us promoted in 2001. And that lot only finished 2nd! It's a complete myth that this lot are somehow better than the position they finished the season in.

tbh I'll only grieve if Gestede leaves and to a lesser extent Rhodes, providing we replace them with as good or better then anybody else can go without a backward glance as far as I am concerned. Hardly be like having to sell the likes of Freidel, Flitty, Duff, Dunn and Jansen would it?

[DE.]

I've highlighted Topmans rather abstract opinion but you are both blaming Bowyer (which to a point is acceptable as he is the Manager) when the real issue as I've reiterated time and again is that not one of todays squad would even get near a place in the team that got us promoted in 2001. And that lot only finished 2nd!

Do you think the likes of Ipswich and Brentford have substantially better squads than us, though? McCarthy took Varney on loan from us and was playing him in the playoff games, after all.

As I've said many times, the difference in the quality of the teams below 4th in this division (with perhaps the exception of underachievers Derby) is very small. Most of the squads are full of average players, the most important part of the setup is the management team, who need to get the best out of the talent they have to work with. Ipswich's season was changed by the prolific season Murphy had, scoring over 20 goals. We had two players that achieved this, yet still we got nowhere near in the end.

[RevidgeBlue]

I've highlighted Topmans rather abstract opinion but you are both blaming Bowyer (which to a point is acceptable as he is the Manager) when the real issue as I've reiterated time and again is that not one of todays squad would even get near a place in the team that got us promoted in 2001. And that lot only finished 2nd! It's a complete myth that this lot are somehow better than the position they finished the season in.

tbh I'll only grieve if Gestede leaves and to a lesser extent Rhodes, providing we replace them with as good or better then anybody else can go without a backward glance as far as I am concerned. Hardly be like having to sell the likes of Freidel, Flitty, Duff, Dunn and Jansen would it?

Fair point but GB has accumulated something like 29 of those players himself so if they're not good enough it's his responsibility to an extent.

I will differ from you slightly in that I don't think the squad is as bad as they performed. I think the attitude and commitment levels during games is dreadful and that I do wholly attribute to the manager.

[mustard]

Have you not been reading this message board since Christmas?

Like I've said Simon, I'm not GB's biggest fan and I think tactically he's naive. But I'm so lacking in confidence in the ability of the board/owners to make a sensible appointment that quite frankly if we did change manager then my instinct would be that we'll slide downwards instead of climbing upwards.

As for the bus analogy - what if the driver of the bus had a history of reckless driving, a drink problem and cataracts.... you still going to bother getting out of bed

Fact is, a club of our stature with Premier League facilities and ground CAN NOT survive by floating along as a mid-table Championship club losing umpteen million a year. Keep doing this and the debt will pile up, we'll be forced to sell our best players (eventually) and FFP will restrict us from replacing them. This is best case scenario. At that point, it's effectively curtains. Promotion is the only way we can secure the future of this club.

Under Bowyer, we have someone who is either clearly unable to put together a promotion-pushing squad OR clearly unable to bring out the best in the squad of players he's assembled. Depends which side of the fence you fall on in that respect. He's spent over £4mill on players (despite what he'd have you believe - Marshall £1m, Duffy £1.3m, Evans £800k, Cairney £500k, Gestede £300k, Conway £100k, Steele £150k+ plus countless freebies, some good and some bad) and has a wage budget up there with the biggest and best in the league. He's had the resources but we are still no closer to going up as we were the day Steve K%^n resigned.

Either you have faith Bowyer will somehow sort out the team's tactics/fitness/lack of midfield/defensive frailties/replace King and whoever else leaves, or you don't. If you do, then fair enough, that's your opinion, but IMO I've seen enough to make my mind up that Bowyer has not got it in him to achieve promotion and thus the only way is down. If you don't believe Bowyer has what it takes to take us up, then the options are limited. We could stick with him and hope he somehow turns into a good manager, hope we get taken over by someone richer than Venky's or hope that we get as much time as possible in the Championship before we drop to League One. Or we twist, hope to appoint someone who stop our impending fall into the lower echelons of the Football League. Yes, we could get someone just as bad as Bowyer, possibly worse, but we are only going ONE WAY at the moment. The stability some crave is NOT sustainable and promotion is the ONLY way out of this mess. Either stick with Bowyer and die a slow and painful death, or appoint someone who actually might have the capabilities of saving our beloved BRFC, that's what it boils down to IMO.

I've highlighted Topmans rather abstract opinion but you are both blaming Bowyer (which to a point is acceptable as he is the Manager) when the real issue as I've reiterated time and again is that not one of todays squad would even get near a place in the team that got us promoted in 2001. And that lot only finished 2nd!

Thing is Gord, although Venky's and Bowyer's predecessors deserve the majority of the blame, Bowyer has had backing enough to push for promotion IMO. If he hasn't assembled a squad able to compete with the leaders in this league then that's down to him, so I'm not sure why you so stoutly defend him.

As for your constant posts about our impending fall into League One, I would happen to agree that this is the direction we are heading under Bowyer. Not BECAUSE of Bowyer, but due to a whole clusterf%^k of reasons. Bowyer, however, has contributed as he's taken likely (emphasise likely) our last chance at promotion and wasted it, all in the name of stability. As DE. has just pointed out, there are plenty of squads worse than ours who have performed better over the years, simply due to a superior manager.

If you're so sure we are a sinking ship under Bowyer Gord, then why don't you even WANT a change? Where is the harm in it? As you say, we are destined for League One anyway so why not at least TRY and appoint a manager who might somehow be able to save us from such a fall or by some miracle get us promoted, just like Dyche did with a very average Burnley squad? Don't get me wrong, I know it's unlikely to happen, but it's even less likely that Bowyer will take us up so why not gamble? Where is your fight man? Where is your will to want change at BRFC? Not in the sense of protesting or anything else, but you seem to have lost the belief and faith that Rovers can ever be better than what we are now. You seem so thoroughly pleased with yourself that the doom you predicted is going to happen that you don't even want to try and make the slightest change that could make all the difference. There are some here who have pie-in-the-sky ambitions, some involving Bowyer taking us up and some not. At least they still have some zest of hope left and at least they WANT changes for the better at this club, whether that means a better manager or a change in owners. Sadly, it seems you've thrown in the towel already and you're happy to see us crumble as you smugly tell everyone how right you were.

[thenodrog]

I rate GB as Jack Walker rated Don McKay. Good manager, decent chap and a relatively safe pair of hands, but not good enough to attract the top players and manage them accordingly.

Unfortunately we don't have a Jack Walker and we are under an embargo so he couldn't help anyway, and we couldn't sign Gary Linekar even if he was prepared to walk up the M6 barefoot. As for replacing the manager with better.... rem the glare of publicity that came Ewoods way back then? In truth Kenny Dalglish ONLY signed for us because Jack waved the chequebook in his face and promised him that he could do the same!

[mustard]

I rate GB as Jack Walker rated Don McKay. Good manager, decent chap and a relatively safe pair of hands, but not good enough to attract the top players and manage them accordingly.

Unfortunately we don't have a Jack Walker and we are under an embargo so he couldn't help anyway, and we couldn't sign Gary Linekar even if he was prepared to walk up the M6 barefoot. As for replacing the manager with better.... rem the glare of publicity that came Ewoods way back then? In truth Kenny Dalglish ONLY signed for us because Jack waved the chequebook in his face and promised him that he could do the same!

Of course the chances of us appointing someone who could bring the best out of the team (think McCarthy, Dyche or Warburton-esque) are very slim but if we are heading one way for certain under GB then why not make a change in the hope a miracle happens? I know you believe we're heading down the stinker anyways and it's certainly well-reasoned, however if there is even a 1% chance that we could appoint a manager who has the quality to get us promoted, I'd rather us pursue that than the 0.01% chance that Bowyer has of getting us promoted.

[davulsukur]

I voted keeping them both. I am not sure how well we could even operate in the market if by some miracle the transfer ban was lifted.

At a guess, we wouldnt be too far off in being banned again, so our options would be limited.

I can't see us replacing either one adequately for nothing.

Keep them both and try and make seriously good use of the loan market for a centre mid or 2.

[den]

I rate GB as Jack Walker rated Don McKay. Good manager, decent chap and a relatively safe pair of hands, but not good enough to attract the top players and manage them accordingly.

Unfortunately we don't have a Jack Walker and we are under an embargo so he couldn't help anyway, and we couldn't sign Gary Linekar even if he was prepared to walk up the M6 barefoot. As for replacing the manager with better.... rem the glare of publicity that came Ewoods way back then? In truth Kenny Dalglish ONLY signed for us because Jack waved the chequebook in his face and promised him that he could do the same!

On the other hand Gord, you've been telling us for a while now how bleak the future is. I think you suggested div1 was a real possibility.

So nothing to lose by changing manager if we're going down anyway?

[blueboy3333]

No there isn't. No wonder it's impossible to have a rational discussion on here when people constantly exaggerate and distort others opinion.

SKH's post said it all, Bowyer has underachieved with the squad/wagebill at his disposal. A top six side that has finished in mid-table two seasons running. What do you think will happen when we're forced to downgrade the playing staff to comply with FFP?

Bowyer did a Parkes-job, he came in and steadied the ship when it was sinking, but just like Parkes he's been found wanting as a manager and isn't able to take the club forward. If Uncle Jack had been Venky's *cringe* he would've kept him in charge permanently and never given the job to Souey.

A top 6 side? How do you come to that conclusion?

It's a strange situation. Most of the people on here slag off the quality of our players/Bowyer's signings but still expect success.

The wage bill is also a nonsense argument. The likes of Robbo & Best will have cost the club a fortune but have not been good enough to play. They weren't Bowyers signings either. King and Dunn are two more, well payed but contribute little due to injuries. Again, not Bowyer signings.

[RevidgeBlue]

I rate GB as Jack Walker rated Don McKay. Good manager, decent chap and a relatively safe pair of hands, but not good enough to attract the top players and manage them accordingly.

Unfortunately we don't have a Jack Walker and we are under an embargo so he couldn't help anyway, and we couldn't sign Gary Linekar even if he was prepared to walk up the M6 barefoot. As for replacing the manager with better.... rem the glare of publicity that came Ewoods way back then? In truth Kenny Dalglish ONLY signed for us because Jack waved the chequebook in his face and promised him that he could do the same!

I rate GB about the same as Bob Saxton. Solid unspectacular job under testing financial circumstances but never likely to be the man under whom to progress. Mackay came in and did a much better job imo albeit not quite enough to push us over the line into the Premier League.

[JAL]

I did extensive research on this before and posted it on here, I put together all transfer fees, additional add on fees, loan fees, player wages etc, everything basically for all the 29 players Bowyer has signed (more than two starting 11's) and the figure came to around £21 million, so to say he's had no money is an actual insult.

Sorry edited it is 29 players Bowyer has signed;

Taylor, Judge, Eastwood, Green, Campbell, Kilgallon, Marrow, Spurr, Evans, Songo'o, Tumwa, Marshall, Mahoney, Brown, Varney, Duffy, Baptiste, Steele, Tunnicliffe, Spearing, Henry, Paul Taylor, Kane, Cairney, Gestede, Conway, Dabo, Keane and Feeney.

I know some will think £21 million, where have you got that from, I am not saying it is spot on, but it is right give or take a couple of million. Look at it this way that is an average of £724,000 per player, which sound not far off.

Wow!

Excellent stuff adsforblues. This makes it look like Rovers is just a vehicle to move lower level footballers through its books for higher than normal fees.

Who wins and who loses?

[Athlete]

Wow!

Excellent stuff adsforblues. This makes it look like Rovers is just a vehicle to move lower level footballers through its books for higher than normal fees.

Who wins and who loses?

The losers are the fans who fork out their hard earned the winners are the players themselves and those in the background with vested interests

I did extensive research on this before and posted it on here, I put together all transfer fees, additional add on fees, loan fees, player wages etc, everything basically for all the 29 players Bowyer has signed (more than two starting 11's) and the figure came to around £21 million, so to say he's had no money is an actual insult.

Sorry edited it is 29 players Bowyer has signed;

Taylor, Judge, Eastwood, Green, Campbell, Kilgallon, Marrow, Spurr, Evans, Songo'o, Tumwa, Marshall, Mahoney, Brown, Varney, Duffy, Baptiste, Steele, Tunnicliffe, Spearing, Henry, Paul Taylor, Kane, Cairney, Gestede, Conway, Dabo, Keane and Feeney.

I know some will think £21 million, where have you got that from, I am not saying it is spot on, but it is right give or take a couple of million. Look at it this way that is an average of £724,000 per player, which sound not far off.

Wow

..and still with all that add to JR who wasn't a GB signing

we still couldn't challenge.. Facts are Facts time for stable Gary to go..