[Archived] Transfer Talk Part 2

[yoda]

Totally off topic. Removed.

Oh come on !

they are usually the best posts

[onlyonejackwalker]

Oh come on !

they are usually the best posts

I enjoyed writing it. The very mention of PNE Shaw at Rovers really, really, irritates. Also were all being nicer to each other, I think

We're still not on topic.

Someone buy some of our players please. The more I think of hungry young players queuing up to come and play for us on less than 10k per week the better it sounds.

Not picking on Al but he keeps going on about star quality and creativity. But then Cairney gets mentioned! Give me an aggressively motivated, disciplined and focused group anyday for this division. Finishing touches are nice. Soft touches aren't. He isn't good enough to build a team around and that's what his style demands. We've got our poacher in Rhodes. Make the other ten defend and graft like their lives depend on it and he can bag from the odd chance that comes his way. Our best bet of getting out of this league is being miserly in defence not little stepovers and back heels. It's not two weeks since he was moaning about supposedly being a marked man. How does he think Rhodes or Gestede feel? It's even more important now that we try and emulate Burnley's stats when promoted of less than 40 conceeded. Hook or by crook.

[watford-rover]

as steven nzonzi is angling for a move out of stoke for fees rumoured to be around the £7m mark, would we get a cut out of any profit stoke make out of the deal?

[Proudtobeblue&white]

I enjoyed writing it. The very mention of PNE Shaw at Rovers really, really, irritates. Also were all being nicer to each other, I think

We're still not on topic.

Someone buy some of our players please. The more I think of hungry young players queuing up to come and play for us on less than 10k per week the better it sounds.

Not picking on Al but he keeps going on about star quality and creativity. But then Cairney gets mentioned! Give me an aggressively motivated, disciplined and focused group anyday for this division. Finishing touches are nice. Soft touches aren't. He isn't good enough to build a team around and that's what his style demands. We've got our poacher in Rhodes. Make the other ten defend and graft like their lives depend on it and he can bag from the odd chance that comes his way. Our best bet of getting out of this league is being miserly in defence not little stepovers and back heels. It's not two weeks since he was moaning about supposedly being a marked man. How does he think Rhodes or Gestede feel? It's even more important now that we try and emulate Burnley's stats when promoted of less than 40 conceeded. Hook or by crook.

Tom attracts the girls, just saying.......

[tomphil]

I enjoyed writing it. The very mention of PNE Shaw at Rovers really, really, irritates. Also were all being nicer to each other, I think

We're still not on topic.

Someone buy some of our players please. The more I think of hungry young players queuing up to come and play for us on less than 10k per week the better it sounds.

Not picking on Al but he keeps going on about star quality and creativity. But then Cairney gets mentioned! Give me an aggressively motivated, disciplined and focused group anyday for this division. Finishing touches are nice. Soft touches aren't. He isn't good enough to build a team around and that's what his style demands. We've got our poacher in Rhodes. Make the other ten defend and graft like their lives depend on it and he can bag from the odd chance that comes his way. Our best bet of getting out of this league is being miserly in defence not little stepovers and back heels. It's not two weeks since he was moaning about supposedly being a marked man. How does he think Rhodes or Gestede feel? It's even more important now that we try and emulate Burnley's stats when promoted of less than 40 conceeded. Hook or by crook.

If we had that ultra fit, strong, disciplined, organised and motivated settled team you could get away with blending the likes of Cairney in it. He'd have a good base to work from and players to cover his backside plus they wouldn't let him hide. You can get away with a passenger or two in sides like that, sadly our team just can't carry them and be effective

It's a tough one though as again he's one of the only shinning lights we potentially have...on his day that is.

[bluebruce]

I think that people criticising Cairney are missing a few of the key stats I posted up that I plucked from Squawka (they're for each 90 mins played). Namely that he wins more tackles and at a higher success rate than Evans or Lowe, which really doesn't suggest we will have more bite in midfield without him, but also this big glaring one that admittedly I did put at the bottom:

Chances Created

Team: 11.1

Cairney: 2.78

Lowe: 0.51

Williamson: 0.74

Evans: 0.69

Cairney creates more than TRIPLE the chances of any of our other central midfielders. Those stats suggest at best, we will create two less chances a game when we play one of the others in the middle. That's just under 20% less chances. And no, it isn't compensated for by tackles, as he nearly tops those too. Frankly I find that loss of chances quite frightening.

Well, Cairney plays on the wing fairly often, maybe that's got more to do with it? Ben Marshall created 1.76 per game. The only player in the team who makes more than Cairney (even though he had a bit of an off year compared to his first one) is Conway, just about, with 2.84. Cairney also has a 68.52% 'successful take on' rate, whilst both the other wingers have around 46%. Lowe 50%, Evans 57.14%. Suggesting that even if he isn't a better dribbler than the others, he is smarter at knowing when he should take someone on.

On pretty much everything I compare him to our other midfielders on, he wins, or is very close. Stats aren't everything, but when you top almost all of them, you're making a positive difference. Make no mistake, if we sell Cairney, remain embargoed (which we will without further sales), and replace him with someone of the same ilk as Evans and Lowe, we WILL suffer for it.

[BlooBoy]

And if Cairney makes waves and wants to go ? May not matter one bit whether we want to keep him or not ..

[tomphil]

Rudy made some waves and....

[bluebruce]

And if Cairney makes waves and wants to go ? May not matter one bit whether we want to keep him or not ..

That's different, but I'd be a bit bemused if he bothered making waves in order to move to a team who finished 15 points and 8 places behind us. Unless we start the fire sale with Rudy and Rhodes. And it's only different. It doesn't mean we have to cave. The one thing Venkys have been able to do is stand firm against bids we don't want to accept. I rate Cairney, but whilst I do think £3.5 mill is probably a fair price for him at this point, it's also an amount we can do the square root of @#/? all with. We will almost certainly be weakened in the end by moving him out.

[JayPeeBee40]

Obviously Al's point went way over your head

I'm not getting into petty arguments..

[yoda]

I'm not getting into petty arguments..

nobody asked you too

[JayPeeBee40]

I'd cairney goes I'm confident bowyer will find someone suitable to replace him, if he stays fair enough. Not bothered either way. Can't be arsed with arguing with fellow fans..

[BlooBoy]

That's different, but I'd be a bit bemused if he bothered making waves in order to move to a team who finished 15 points and 8 places behind us. Unless we start the fire sale with Rudy and Rhodes. And it's only different. It doesn't mean we have to cave. The one thing Venkys have been able to do is stand firm against bids we don't want to accept. I rate Cairney, but whilst I do think £3.5 mill is probably a fair price for him at this point, it's also an amount we can do the square root of @#/? all with. We will almost certainly be weakened in the end by moving him out.

Yes Venkys have stood firm the last couple of seasons regarding losing players but ive a feeling this season maybe different Bruce.

I think moving to a team 15 pts and 8 places behind us is going to be irrelevant this season. The way we re shaping up, us and Fulham could quite easily have our position/points reversed this season.

The lads been played out of position by a manager who really hasnt got a clue. Two wasted opertunities to make a go at promotion gone through the window.He probably has an idea who may or may not go this summer.The club is in a transfer embargo. All these things could sway him into saying i want away.

And thats before better wages and living in the capital ..

[JHRover]

I'd cairney goes I'm confident bowyer will find someone suitable to replace him, if he stays fair enough. Not bothered either way. Can't be arsed with arguing with fellow fans..

Someone as good as or better than Cairney on a free transfer on low wages? Any ideas?

Surely if it was that simple then Fulham would be doing that rather than spending several million pounds on him?

Its a very similar scenario as with Rhodes. Many people saying 'he isnt that good' or 'he is replaceable'. The reality is we won't appreciate what we have until they have gone.

[patrickvalery]

The other side of that coin is that other clubs are only ever going to be interested in our better players so it's inevitable that there will be interest and speculation.

But you are right in what you say. There is no point in selling our best players to get out of the embargo, and certainly not in the Summer. Even from a business perspective.

If we sell now then we are out of embargo in January (when everyone pays a premium for players). If we sell our best players in January then we can command premium rate for our outgoings and plan a complete overhaul in the Summer. To sell players now would be nothing short of stupidity.

Obviously this is predicated by Venkys continuing to fund our losses for a further season or so - because if they aren't, well it's game over anyway.

That hadn't really dawned on me. Selling to clubs in January would make a lot more sense all things considered. Assuming that our best and sellable players stay injury free and on form.

The Cairney potential sale doesn't sit well with me. Very good footballer and didn't look out of place when we held citeh season before last. That's the best compliment I can pay him. I'd be sorry to see him leave.

[JHRover]

Yes Venkys have stood firm the last couple of seasons regarding losing players but ive a feeling this season maybe different Bruce.

I think moving to a team 15 pts and 8 places behind us is going to be irrelevant this season. The way we re shaping up, us and Fulham could quite easily have our position/points reversed this season.

The lads been played out of position by a manager who really hasnt got a clue. Two wasted opertunities to make a go at promotion gone through the window.He probably has an idea who may or may not go this summer.The club is in a transfer embargo. All these things could sway him into saying i want away.

And thats before better wages and living in the capital ..

I understand that. But you also have to realise that it is under Bowyer's management that Cairney has flourished.

Lets remember where he was before he came here. A bit-part player at Hull who had barely featured (admittedly due to injury) in their promotion season. Before that he had been in and out of their team for 2-3 years in an average Championship side.

He got a chance at Rovers and excelled. He has spent at a guess 80-90% of his game time on the right side of midfield. That hasn't stopped him being our player of the season, that didn't stop him signing a 3 year contract at the club.

Its not as though Bowyer has come into the club and suddenly shunted Cairney into a position he can't play in. He's been in that position most of the time he has been at the club and has done well there as the stats will prove.

If Cairney would actively seek a move to a club like Fulham then I think its time to be worried.

[bluebruce]

I think moving to a team 15 pts and 8 places behind us is going to be irrelevant this season. The way we re shaping up, us and Fulham could quite easily have our position/points reversed this season.

The lads been played out of position by a manager who really hasnt got a clue. Two wasted opertunities to make a go at promotion gone through the window.He probably has an idea who may or may not go this summer.The club is in a transfer embargo. All these things could sway him into saying i want away.

And thats before better wages and living in the capital ..

I'm not sure Fulham's position is as rosy as that. They got relegated with a loss of £33 million. Their TV money then dropped by £39 million. They bought McCormack for £11 million. I don't know enough about their trading and accounting to properly estimate their losses last season, and I couldn't find them in my brief search, but surely once the FFP accounts are looked over, they will be joining us in Embargo Land? Likely trying to spend now while they can.

[JHRover]

I'm not sure Fulham's position is as rosy as that. They got relegated with a loss of £33 million. Their TV money then dropped by £39 million. They bought McCormack for £11 million. I don't know enough about their trading and accounting to properly estimate their losses last season, and I couldn't find them in my brief search, but surely once the FFP accounts are looked over, they will be joining us in Embargo Land? Likely trying to spend now while they can.

You would like to think so.

Fulham are in the club along with Middlesbrough, Derby and Bolton. Ultimately the sums just don't add up. They have lost a hell of a lot of money, splurged a third of their parachute money on McCormack alone, spent all last season fighting relegation.

Infact their season last year wasn't too dissimilar to our season under Berg/Appleton.

I would hazard a guess that their wage bill is among the highest in the division and their income must have plummeted along with their gates.

Yet there are rumours of a £10 million transfer fund and determination to spend to get promoted?

How is that even possible? The sums just do not add up. Financial 'Fair' Play at it again. Wonderful.

[gumboots]

They're in London. One rule for them...

[bluebruce]

Fulham would have to be losing only three million this season to justify a ten million pound investment in players without sales. Thirteen million being the limit for next year isn't it? And that's assuming those players didn't get paid more than any outgoing ones.

[chaddyrovers]

Rotherham are going to offer Chris Taylor a contract.

From Kamy and in today Sun paper

[JHRover]

Rotherham are going to offer Chris Taylor a contract.

From Kamy and in today Sun paper

I expected Taylor to be given a new deal at Rovers. Infact were Cairney to depart it wouldn't surprise me if Taylor had been the first one in line to take Cairney's place in the squad.

But to be fair playing for a club at the bottom end of this league is about Taylor's level, and he would certainly get more game time there than with us. Good luck to him if he goes. He has been a good professional in his time and Rovers and has got on with it despite limited game time.

The down side is that it is another option less if he goes elsewhere. Whilst he hasn't been a big player for us he was a useful player to have on the bench to come on for 20 minutes or so in a game and could fill a few positions. It is now yet even more important that we keep Cairney/Marshall.

[thenodrog]

If Cairney would actively seek a move to a club like Fulham then I think its time to be worried.

He might well have behind the scenes. As I've said previously any self respecting agent of a decent player will be angling to get him away from Ewood asap now that the transfer embargo is in place and the club's curve is steeply downward. Simple choice........... Get in a lifeboat early or go down with a sinking ship.

Rotherham are going to offer Chris Taylor a contract.

From Kamy and in today Sun paper

Not surprised. He's a good squad player. Probably not in a fully fit 1st XI but whenever he's come in he's rarely let us down. Much more consistent a performer than either Cairney or Marshall too which imo is a biggy in this division. From the outside looking in Taylor seems to be a good trainer, no bother and a popular lad. There is something that does not sit well with me if he goes, and very similar to the disquiet that I felt when the admirable Dave Jones was shown the door that ended up with him going to Burnley, playing a huge part in a 4 man midfield (seems to be Bowyers favourite set up) and getting them promoted and a significant part in their relegation battle since. Suggests to me that there is maybe something that has gone on that we are unaware of OR that he is being sacrificed in order to get someone else in. Spearing or the other Taylor perhaps? Rather hope not as neither of those has Taylor's attitude imo.... albeit as I say from the outside looking in.

[JHRover]

He might well have behind the scenes. As I've said previously any self respecting agent of a decent player will be angling to get him away from Ewood asap now that the transfer embargo is in place and the club's curve is steeply downward. Simple choice........... Get in a lifeboat early or go down with a sinking ship.

Not surprised. He's a good squad player. Probably not in a fully fit 1st XI but whenever he's come in he's rarely let us down. From the outside looking in he seems to be a good trainer and a popular lad. Suggests to me that there is maybe something that has gone on that we are unaware of.

I don't accept that. He, along with everyone else, would have known the embargo was inevitable when he joined the club in the first place. If it was that much of an issue it would have been safer to have signed for someone else instead of Rovers.

Infact, if anything the embargo will strengthen his position at the club, as it will limit the clubs options and ensure he is virtually guaranteed a starting spot in the team.

More of an issue is the possible departures of the quality players of Rhodes and Gestede. If someone like Cairney sees those players heading for the exit he might not want to hang around with Chris Brown and co. But so far there appears to be determination on the part of the club to keep those players.

The biggest issue is likely to be what financial package he can get at Fulham and how much more that is than what he is on here. If Rovers want to keep him it might be time to give him a pay-rise. Given we can't bring players in and have lost a lot then that should be possible.

[thenodrog]

I don't accept that. He, along with everyone else, would have known the embargo was inevitable when he joined the club in the first place. If it was that much of an issue it would have been safer to have signed for someone else instead of Rovers.

Infact, if anything the embargo will strengthen his position at the club, as it will limit the clubs options and ensure he is virtually guaranteed a starting spot in the team.

More of an issue is the possible departures of the quality players of Rhodes and Gestede. If someone like Cairney sees those players heading for the exit he might not want to hang around with Chris Brown and co. But so far there appears to be determination on the part of the club to keep those players.

The biggest issue is likely to be what financial package he can get at Fulham and how much more that is than what he is on here. If Rovers want to keep him it might be time to give him a pay-rise. Given we can't bring players in and have lost a lot then that should be possible.

You just did JH. That's effectively how I think his agent will be viewing the situation.

btw.... I'd delete your final paragraph. I doubt GB will be allowed to offer anyone a pay rise. For 1. We have to get the wage bill down and 2. Up one players wage will result in a queue forming outside Bowyers office seeking the same and a massive blow to squad morale when that is necessarily denied. Who knows that may be the reason that Taylor is being allowed to leave. He might have been promised a pay rise this season and then had the offer withdrawn because of the situation.